The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
The problem is, you can't believe in something unless you're convinced it's true. The natural man is blind to the truth. Unless God opens your eyes, you won't see it or believe it.
An Article on free will
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The problem is, you can't believe in something unless you're convinced it's true. The natural man is blind to the truth. Unless God opens your eyes, you won't see it or believe it.
Revelation is that which is needed
Romans 10:14–17 (ESV) — 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
given it men can believe
John 20:31 (ESV) — 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
You're still shortening this to "Faith comes by hearing the word of Christ". That's not what it says. HEARING comes by the word of Christ, and you need HEARING in order to believe what you hear, that is, the Gospel.
You're still shortening this to "Faith comes by hearing the word of Christ". That's not what it says. HEARING comes by the word of Christ, and you need HEARING in order to believe what you hear, that is, the Gospel.
No, that's not what founder means.
So on the one hand it is our faith, but then it's not? Which is it?
The ESV uses "our"
Um nothing there about some special enablement which allows you to hear
Romans 10:17 (NIV) — 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
It's not in the greek
It is God who gives eyes to see and ears to hear.
You used the word "our" in post. Very first sentence. So is it about our faith or the faith?
There is no "our" in the greek text
I used our because I was explaining our personal faith is centered start to finish in Christ.
I did not sat there was. You, however said it's about our faith. And the proceded to use it again
Are you talking about 1 Cor 2:14? Who do you think the audience is? Paul is addressing regenerate believers. He is exhorting them to abide by the Spirit of God and not to fall back into being a ψυχικὸς (purely soulish) man. Massive failure to understand who Paul is talking to and talking about on your part.
1 Cor 2:14 But the natural (ψυχικὸς) man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Also, man has been blessed with the spirit of man as a lamp of Jehovah. Man is not as spiritually dumb as a door knob as Calvinists make him out to be:
Pro 20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
Zec 12:1 The burden of the Word of Jehovah for Israel, says Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens, and lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.
So again, there is nothing in there that says "Stay Inert, Do Nothing, and Wait for the Zapping" which is Calvinism's battle cry.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
NIV.
Read the Greek. There is no "message" and it's not "the word ABOUT Christ".
It's hearing. Faith comes by hearing and hearing [comes by] the word of Christ.
The point
Calvinists also often misapply Hebrews 12:2 to this concept of faith being an exclusive gift to a Gnostic-style set of pre-selected elect people. The use of this verse is the equivalent of the Calvinist screaming at the top of his lungs that context means nothing to him and that he has no idea what the passage is talking about. They see their buzz words and think that it is an excellent opportunity for them to import their ideas, and in so doing, they miss the entire point, and self[1]identify as the milk-sop in Hebrews 5:11-13. This is not a text book of theological proof texts.When Calvinists use this verse, the idea they’re bringing to it is that Jesus is authoring the individual’s volitional belief in the gospel and then carries that belief through until the person’s death. But this has absolutely nothing to do with that nonsense whatsoever. This verse is addressing the continuity of the faith for the Jew from the Mosaic Torah and Old Testament to faith in Christ under the New Testament. The tempting mindset for the Jew of that day would be to say that “Jehovah and Moses got us started in our faith, and now we’ve changed channels so Jesus and wrap it up and finish it off.”Hebrews 12:2 (KJV) 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.Back in chapter 1, the author reminded the reader that the same God who spoke to their fathers in times past in diverse and sundry manners has now spoken through His Son, Jesus Christ. Then in chapter two, don’t let these things slip. Then by time the epistle (or midrash) is about to be wrapped up, the writer reminds the reader that this is not two different programs. They did not transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament to start a brand new system of faith or a new religion, but that this same Jesus is the author of everything that their fathers ever rightly believed as deliberated back in chapter 11, and it is the same Jesus who is the finisher. Thus, Jesus is “the author and finisher of our faith,” the audience being Hebrews who have relatively recently come to believe in Jesus of Nazareth as the Savior and Jewish Messiah.Even if one wanted to take this concept out of the context and apply it the way Calvinists eisegete it, it still would not help them. Of course Jesus is the author and finisher of the faith. How could someone put their faith in Jesus if there was no Jesus to put their faith in? Jesus is a real historical person, and He is the manifestation in the flesh of the real, historical God. There can be no faith without the object of that faith first presenting itself for trust and reliance.
NIV.
Romans 10:17
By the word of Christ (δια ρηματος Χριστου [dia rēmatos Christou]). “By the word about Christ” (objective genitive).
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Ro 10:17.
17. By hearing (ἐξ ἀκοῆς). The same word as report, above, and in the same sense, that which is heard.
Word of God (ῥήματος Θεοῦ). The best texts read of Christ. Probably not the Gospel, but Christ’s word of command or commission to its preachers; thus taking up except they be sent (ver. 15), and emphasizing the authority of the message. Belief comes through the message, and the message through the command of Christ.
Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 3; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 116–117.
Ver. 17. This verse is really parenthetic: Paul’s logical mind cannot let slip the chance of showing how this quotation confirms the connection of ideas in ver. 14. ἄρα suits a rapid passing inference better than the more deliberate ἄρα οὖν which is much more frequent in Romans. Cf. 1 Cor. 15:18, 2 Cor. 5:14, Gal. 2:17. So then faith comes from a message (that which is received by the hearer of the Gospel), and the message διὰ ῥήματος Χριστοῦ through the Word concerning Christ. That which when heard is ἀκοὴ is when spoken ῥῆμα, and it is the condition of faith. The construction in ῥῆμα Χριστοῦ is the same as in τὸ ῥῆμα τῆς πίστεως in ver. 8. The words could not signify Christ’s command.
W. Robertson Nicoll, The Expositor’s Greek Testament: Commentary (vol. 2; New York: George H. Doran Company, n.d.), 673–674.
Tell me what is the difference between hearing and hearing.
I believe he may be speculating that a command of Christ is needed to cause you to believe
Of course the verse does not say any such thing.
You also believe it refers to "our" faith.
The verse says ῥήματος Θεοῦ (word of God, spoken or written), which I believe you pointed out earlier.
I'm impressed with your Greek. Keep up your splendent work.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Your commentary is garbage. διὰ means THROUGH, BY, BECAUSE OF. It never means "about". It doesn't even make grammatical sense to translate it that way. The verse might as well be "Faith comes by hearing about Christ." There's no need to express where hearing comes from. But there it is in the text. It TELLS you where hearing comes from. The word of Christ. Think "let there be light". Only in this case it's "let there be hearing".
ῥήματος is "[the] word" ("the" isn't even in the Greek) not "the word about". It never means "word about". "It's [the] word of Christ.
Many years ago, I threw out all my Bibles with commentary. If I had followed the commentary, I'd have garbage for theology.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
It says ῥήματος Χριστοῦ the word of Christ. Some translations say "word of God". Perhaps it's Θεοῦ in some manuscripts of which I am unaware. But since Jesus IS God, it doesn't matter.
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