Both Textus Receptus and Majority/Byzantine Text versions say ῥήματος Θεοῦ. Which Greek Text version contains ῥήματος Χριστοῦ?
(Rom 10:17) ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ.
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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(Rom 10:17) ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
That makes sense for Textus Receptus, since my NKJV says God. I use Bibles translated from Eberhard Nestle's NOVUM TESTAMENTUM GRAECE like the NASB.
Like I said, it doesn't matter. Jesus is God.
Like I said, it doesn't matter. Jesus is God.
First I gave three reference not one
And all three are noted Greek scholars
AT Robertson for example is both a noted Greek scholar and a Calvinist
here however
My Bible Word Study
Lemma
διά dia through; because of; by; on account of
and the commentators
By the word of Christ (δια ρηματος Χριστου [dia rēmatos Christou]). “By the word about Christ” (objective genitive).
The phrase "word of god"is a genitive phrase
God could be the subject or the object depending on the type of genitive
AT Roberson is an expert Greek grammarian the author of a famous Greek grammar, so his opinion is weighty
and your objection insignificant
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Ro 10:17.
17. By hearing (ἐξ ἀκοῆς). The same word as report, above, and in the same sense, that which is heard.
Word of God (ῥήματος Θεοῦ). The best texts read of Christ. Probably not the Gospel, but Christ’s word of command or commission to its preachers; thus taking up except they be sent (ver. 15), and emphasizing the authority of the message. Belief comes through the message, and the message through the command of Christ.
Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 3; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 116–117.
Ver. 17. This verse is really parenthetic: Paul’s logical mind cannot let slip the chance of showing how this quotation confirms the connection of ideas in ver. 14. ἄρα suits a rapid passing inference better than the more deliberate ἄρα οὖν which is much more frequent in Romans. Cf. 1 Cor. 15:18, 2 Cor. 5:14, Gal. 2:17. So then faith comes from a message (that which is received by the hearer of the Gospel), and the message διὰ ῥήματος Χριστοῦ through the Word concerning Christ. That which when heard is ἀκοὴ is when spoken ῥῆμα, and it is the condition of faith. The construction in ῥῆμα Χριστοῦ is the same as in τὸ ῥῆμα τῆς πίστεως in ver. 8. The words could not signify Christ’s command.
W. Robertson Nicoll, The Expositor’s Greek Testament: Commentary (vol. 2; New York: George H. Doran Company, n.d.), 673–674.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Okay, keep learning theology by commentaries. You do you.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
So why the necessity of human language? Keep going in this premise you're building.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You referenced a Greek commentary.
civic
Well-known member
Got scripture?
brightfame52
Well-known member
Im seeing Jesus, her faith was in Jesus. Faith isnt a Saviour friend
brightfame52
Well-known member
Faith is caused by Jesus, it identifies His Spiritual Seed, Abrahams Spiritual Seed
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Nothing there about him giving her faith
brightfame52
Well-known member
You cant perceive it.
Um these were matters of Greek grammar
for that you go to the expert s of Greek grammar
because it is not there
brightfame52
Well-known member
You cant see it
In your opening paragraph, @Ray and @Rockson (due to your Like reaction of Ray's post), your heart's treasure speaks against the Righteous Lord Jesus Christ who conclusively conveys that man is incapable of choosing the Righteous Lord Jesus Christ with “And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?” (Luke 12:57). You are in error with your free-willian philosophy.
While still in your opening paragraph, @Ray and @Rockson (due to your Like reaction of Ray's post), your heart's treasure purported that man works faith/belief to point at Righteous Lord Jesus Christ, yet the Christ of us Christians lovingly declares "This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29); therefore, man does not work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus, but God does work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus (John 6:28-29). You are in error with your free-willian philosophy.
Well, @Ray and @Rockson (due to your Like reaction of Ray's post) , free-will is entirely absent from 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9, and Joshua 24:14-15, so your heart adds free-will in the Holy Scripture.
Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
The New Testament Epistles, such as 1 Timothy and 2 Peter, are specifically written to believers in Jesus Christ, but the world misinterprets and adds to the Epistles.
The Apostle Paul wrote:
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth
(1 Timothy 2:3-4)
Take note of "desires all men" in 1 Timothy 2:4.
Since God always gets that which God desires (1 Timothy 2:4) for it is written of God that "what His soul desires, that He does" (Job 23:13), then the "all men". After all, it is written of God that “no purpose of Yours can be thwarted” (Job 42:2); therefore, only persons that God chooses for salvation are saved from the wrath of God.
The "all men" in 1 Timothy 2:4 cannot be everyone everywhere in all time as per your heart's treasure because that would make God weak and incapable because you are saying that someone snatches God's chosen persons out of God's Hand, yet the Word of God declares "no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28), so the Truth (John 14:6) is that Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE JESUS!!!
When you convey that "any" is God's choosing of everyone everywhere in all time inside of "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9), then you end up with the unbiblical concept of everyone everywhere in all time having a first state of being as chosen in the state of salvation, also known as universalism.
The Natural Is The First State Of Being For All Mere Mortals
The Apostle Paul identifies every man starts out as a natural man with "the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual" (1 Corinthians 15:46).
The Apostle Paul states that man is accountable to God for man's own sin against God with "since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20).
The Apostle Paul includes even the Gentiles in the Law "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves" (Romans 2:14).
The Apostle Paul states that man is accountable to God for man's own crime against God with "we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law [comes] the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:19-20).
The Apostle Paul explains that the commands of God are foolishness to man with a "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14)
The Apostle Paul declares that man's flesh opposes the Spirit of God with "the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17).
The Apostle Paul declares that man's flesh is hostile against God and the flesh cannot please God with "the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so], and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).
THE FIRST STATE OF MAN IS OPPOSITION TO GOD, AND THE ONLY WAY (JOHN 14:6) FOR MAN'S SALVATION IS FOR GOD TO BIRTH MAN ANEW (JOHN 3:3-8), NOT A WORK OF A FREE-WILL CHOICE BY MAN, BUT STRICTLY THE WORK OF GOD IN MAN (JOHN 6:29).
The concepts in the 1 Timothy 2:4 section apply to 2 Peter 3:9 as well.
The Hebrew Word For "Choose" And It's Conjugates Is בָּחר (bachar) Strong's Number 977
Beholding Joshua 24:15
Joshua expresses a conditional logic statement in Joshua 24:15, and a conditional logic statement is normally an IF/THEN construct, for example:
IF condition THEN predicate
Stated in a more Joshua 24:15 focused fashion.
IF you_do_this that_will_happen
Thus, the conditional expresses an action in the condition (you_do_this), and the effectual result in the predicate (that_will_happen).
A conditional does not convey ability to the recipient of the conditional.
Now, the conditional logic statement Joshua expressed was "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD" (Joshua 24:15), so the condition (you_do_this) is "to serve the LORD is disagreeable in your eyes"; furthermore, Joshua 24:15 contains no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God . The condition Joshua expressed states the condition/state-of-being/nature of the person.
Disagreeable does not mean choose.
In the predicate Joshua provides only false gods to choose among for the those people whose nature is against the LORD, for Joshua said "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living" (Joshua 24:15), and the word "choose" in this verse is translated from בָּחר (bachar) (Strong's Number 977).
Finaly, Joshua states "[b[but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD[/b[", and there is no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God (Joshua 24:15).
A state of being, "disagreeable", is mentioned in Joshua 24:15, and action, "serve", is mentioned in Joshua 24:15.
There is no choice towards God mentioned in Joshua 24:15, so this verse is not a proof text free-will, in fact, free-will is nonsense according to the Word of God who says:
- "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
- "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
- "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.
We Christians are blessed of God to be chosen by Lord Jesus without us being required to do any kind of work because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation)!
Rockson
Well-known member
Really though Kermos the opposite is true. You being against free will is doing what you said above.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Here's something the free-willers miss in this scripture:
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but IS PATIENT TOWARD YOU, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9)
Toward whom? Who is Peter writing to?
Rockson
Well-known member
Here's something our Calvinist friends miss. They cherry pick a verse and force a meaning into a text not looking at all the scriptures to balance things out. If they did they 'd accept God is patient to the whole human race not willing that any should perish . We can see this reflected by the following verses.
"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live...Eze 33:11
He said it right there that he wanted the wicked to LIVE.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! Mt 23:37
Above he shows God longed to see people saved were he also wept in another verse that God's will wasn't going to be done. Calvinists are left in the place of believing Jesus tears were insincere. That in and of itself is a sad thing to believe.
