An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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It is dynamic and grows with us. It is not a fully developed zapped faith that we first receive. As such it is me that is responsible for its development in me. Why are you so ready to absolve yourself of everything, including responsibilities?
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Still, you take credit for it saving you.
You are not the author of your faith.
Jesus is not the co-author and finisher of your faith.
Jesus is the AUTHOR and finisher of your faith.
Luke 7:50 Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”
How would you respond if Christ told you that?
Your strawman of us taking credit is getting really old and boring.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Its the salvation of who it belongs to. Eph 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Its not to a unsaved person DUH
brightfame52
Well-known member
So can they believe after God send them a strong delusion to believe a lie so they will be damned? Yes or No
These here 2 Thess 2:10-12
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Now can these go contrary to Gods sending them a strong delusion that they should believe a lie ? Can they reverse that and believe the Truth ? Yes or no
Calvinists also often misapply Hebrews 12:2 to this concept of faith being an exclusive gift to a Gnostic-style set of pre-selected elect people. The use of this verse is the equivalent of the Calvinist screaming at the top of his lungs that context means nothing to him and that he has no idea what the passage is talking about. They see their buzz words and think that it is an excellent opportunity for them to import their ideas, and in so doing, they miss the entire point, and self[1]identify as the milk-sop in Hebrews 5:11-13. This is not a text book of theological proof texts.When Calvinists use this verse, the idea they’re bringing to it is that Jesus is authoring the individual’s volitional belief in the gospel and then carries that belief through until the person’s death. But this has absolutely nothing to do with that nonsense whatsoever. This verse is addressing the continuity of the faith for the Jew from the Mosaic Torah and Old Testament to faith in Christ under the New Testament. The tempting mindset for the Jew of that day would be to say that “Jehovah and Moses got us started in our faith, and now we’ve changed channels so Jesus and wrap it up and finish it off.”Hebrews 12:2 (KJV) 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.Back in chapter 1, the author reminded the reader that the same God who spoke to their fathers in times past in diverse and sundry manners has now spoken through His Son, Jesus Christ. Then in chapter two, don’t let these things slip. Then by time the epistle (or midrash) is about to be wrapped up, the writer reminds the reader that this is not two different programs. They did not transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament to start a brand new system of faith or a new religion, but that this same Jesus is the author of everything that their fathers ever rightly believed as deliberated back in chapter 11, and it is the same Jesus who is the finisher. Thus, Jesus is “the author and finisher of our faith,” the audience being Hebrews who have relatively recently come to believe in Jesus of Nazareth as the Savior and Jewish Messiah.Even if one wanted to take this concept out of the context and apply it the way Calvinists eisegete it, it still would not help them. Of course Jesus is the author and finisher of the faith. How could someone put their faith in Jesus if there was no Jesus to put their faith in? Jesus is a real historical person, and He is the manifestation in the flesh of the real, historical God. There can be no faith without the object of that faith first presenting itself for trust and reliance.
No you did not get the idea from that verse
that verse does not say that
BTW was No unclear to you
brightfame52
Well-known member
Okay then you dont know who are the ones God has sent a strong delusion to to believe a lie, so they're not included in the ones God desires to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth here 1 Tim 2:4
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
You remain confused
I stated nothing about not knowing who the ones are who are sent a strong delusion
And that does not negate the fact that God had a desire for their salvation
even though he knows they will not
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Jesus is the author of her faith. It didn't just spring up out of nowhere. You can't get around that.
Um that does not mean he effectually caused her to believe
there is no personal pronoun the phrase the author and finisher of the faith
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Rockson
Well-known member
;No there's not. God provides evidence which should substantiate a belief but to those who choose to walk in pride and not choose faith he can't help them. Same with humility as well as with faith. . God can create circumstances which might seek to humble one but a person can still choose their own way .
It's one of those things that there are some things it's impossible for God to do. (eg create a round square) Calvinists talk a lot about irresistible grace but for God to do that he'd have to break through the PRIDE barrier. Impossible for it's against his nature. God has stated he resists the proud, BUT gives his grace to the humble Jm 4:6
brightfame52
Well-known member
Okay then you dont know who are the ones God has sent a strong delusion to to believe a lie, so they're not included in the ones God desires to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth here 1 Tim 2:4
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
That's fine. I am not bound to the canons of Dort. What did the mean by infused?
So why did he not say the faith he gave saved her?
Again, who says anything different? Must argue even when we are in agreement?
You said it. Her Faith. That proves that she has the personal responsibility to have it grow. Her faith did not get zapped into her fully developed. The idea that you Stay Inert, Do Nothing, and Wait for the Zapping is heretical.
transfered, installed
There are several views of the role of faith in Ephesians Chapter 2 verses 8-9. It might be helpful to examine briefly these views. These two verses are acknowledged to be scripture by those who accept the New Testament. The different concepts of the role of faith come from trying to understand what these two verses mean. There are, at least, three basic views regarding the role of faith in these two verses.
In brief, the views are as follows.
1. Faith as an infused gift of God. Faith is believed to be infused into the person who is dead-like. While dead, they become gifted with saving faith. In this sense, faith is an infused gift from God. This view holds that no one is saved unless God imparted the gift of faith into them.
2. Faith as a received gift of God. The gift of faith is welcomed and received by a lost sinner who feels his or her deep need of salvation. With this gift of faith, he or she believes the gospel. This view emphasizes the acceptance of the "gift" of faith by the sinner. The sinner willingly and knowingly receives the gift of faith and has believing faith. In this sense, the sinner willingly, knowingly, and actively receives the gift of faith.
3. Faith as a personal decision to believe the gospel. This view holds that the gift of God does not refer to the word, faith; rather it refers to the whole plan of salvation. This view teaches that the whole "by grace you are saved through faith" plan of salvation is the gift of God. For Israel in the Old Testament, the plan was "by the law you are blessed through obedience." The OT involved the "keeping the law." The New Testament involves "faith in Christ." The OT was a system of "works." The NT is based upon "grace."
1. Infused Faith.
Probably the most popular view is that faith is infused into a sinner. Since the human population is held to be incapable of believing the gospel message, it is necessary for God to impart living faith into the dead and unresponsive sinner. After the Holy Spirit has imparted faith into the sinner, the person is able to accept the gospel of salvation.
This view emphasizes the sovereignty of God in saving souls. Whoever God sovereignly chooses to impart life and faith, comes to faith.
2. Faith is a gift.
It is easy to see why this view would be thought to be the case. A straight forward reading of the passage would lead one to believe that faith was itself the gift. Granting that faith is a gift, a gift still has to be received by the one to whom it is offered. So, even this second view requires acceptance of the gift and belief in the Savior by the lost sinner. In effect, it is similar to the third view. It holds that the sinner has some form of real faith in the value of the offer of the gospel.
3. The gift is not faith but the entire plan of salvation.
To understand this view, one needs to understand that some languages have nouns with gender. For example, nouns in Spanish have masculine, feminine or neuter genders. The words, faith and grace are both feminine in Greek while the word, "that" is neuter. So, the sentence reads as follows.
"For by grace (feminine) you have been saved through faith (feminine), and that (neuter).
Some Greek scholars note that "that (neuter)" must refer to the whole phrase. They argue that if "that (neuter)" referred to "faith (feminine)," the word "that" should be feminine and not neuter.
"that" neuter in Greek is "touto, τοῦτο."
"that" feminine in Greek is "taute, ταύτῃ."
Consequently, the phrase may be read as follows.
("For by grace are you saved through faith") that ... is the gift of God. It is not the OT system of laws. It is not ours personal merit or our good deeds. The gift of God is the plan of salvation that is offered in free grace to all sinners who come in faith to the Savior.
This view thinks that God's sovereignty is shown in the words "by grace" and that human responsibility is shown in the words "through faith." God offers salvation as a gift freely to all. There is just one condition for the gift of salvation. The gift of salvation must be accepted in faith. The free offer of salvation is to all races, nations, tribes, peoples, and languages. It is for wicked sinners, polite sinners, socialites, religious devotees, stoned drug addicts, and social outcasts.
However, there is the one condition on the part of the sinner, "faith." The sinner must "believe" the gospel of the grace of God. This faith is apart from works. It is a non-meritorious faith, but it is an absolutely necessity. Salvation is offered freely, but the sinner must be received the offer by faith.
This last view holds that God works through the Holy Spirit who convicts, compels, and convinces the sinner of his or her need of salvation. However, the Holy Spirit does not force a sinner to accept the gracious offer of salvation. The sinner may choose to resist the Holy Spirit's gracious invitation. Furthermore, this view holds that the sinner must really believe the gospel. God cannot believe for us. We must believe, or we will be eternally damned. In this view, human beings have the responsibility (responsibility, i.e., the ability to respond) to accept the gospel message.
This view believes that God's sovereignty and human responsibility meet in the phrase "for by grace are you saved through faith." Since there is free grace on God's part, and, if there is real faith on the sinner's part, eternal salvation will be the outcome for the sinner.
Have you yourself accepted God's gracious offer of salvation?
Faith: Is it a gift infused, a gift received, or the decision to believe? | Christian Treasury
So what does it mean by founder and perfected of "our" faith? ESV
