An Article on free will

[GodsGrace]

@jeremiah1five @GodsGrace

Jeremiah that's being dishonest with the scriptures, but you are not alone in trying to make the scriptures limited in their scope and application, in order to support one's biased doctrine, that they have come to embraced. Why not stop corrupting scriptures in this manner, and used the biblical method of hermeneutic to reveal the true biblical sense of the speaker words, which in this case would be the Lord form heaven. Biblical hermeneutics is:

Isaiah 28:9,10​

“Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:”

Isaiah 28:13​

“But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.”
Here a little and there a little until the spiritual puzzle comes together with scriptures flowing from one to another showing us the TRUTH of any particular doctrine that may be under consideration ~ this biblical method works every time.

Jesus is speaking to a Jew named Nicodemus, one of their leader. In John 3:16 we have a biblical declaration of a truth that is in the word of God.

First, he that believes in the Jesus Christ shall never perish, but will have everlasting life. Even though everlasting life is a present possession of the believer, but the reality is yet in the future.

Secondly, Jesus is revealing to Nicodemus that God's love is not limited the the Jews only, but also to the Gentiles! The world in John 3:16 is all without distinction, not all without exception, for God does make exceptions!

World equals Jews and Gentiles. Consider:

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”

Romans 9:24​

“Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

You both are wrong, the scriptures settled the argument.

RB
I agree with the above.
So what am I wrong about??

 

[GodsGrace]

@jeremiah1five



Could you please give me your understanding on this passage? Rom2:26-29

26 ;Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Gee. We finally agree on something.

 

[GodsGrace]

I quote and believe “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (The Word of God, John 3:21), and you replied "Your RELIGION makes false statements about God", and Lord Jesus Christ says "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God" (John 8:47).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

​

Kermos....
I guess you're telling me I'm not saved.
This is wonderful.

So when did God go on vacation and put YOU in charge?

Calvinism is a conjured concept made up by the traditions of men.
Calvinists follow Calvin.
Follow Christ instead.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, that's how it would read to English-speaking people. But that's how it reads to English-speaking people when you ignore the audience to whom the Scripture - Old and New - was written to and they were written to those in covenant with God: Israel.
If it was meant to everyone then John and other authors would have said "everyone" in the text. But there is only one Greek word that exists that refers to "everyone" and that is the word "everyone."
When you fully understand the Old Testament Hebrew Scripture is written to and for the Hebrew people by Hebrew people then it's not hard to extend that to the New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation.

Is there any doubt the Law (Pentateuch) was written to and for the Hebrews? Oh, sure, when you see those Scripture "books" were originally written in Hebrew. Same with the Psalms and the Prophets. But the New Covenant writings were written in Greek and so it's assumed outright they must've been written to non-Hebrews since Greek is the language of the Greek people, specifically, Alex the Great, of whom these Roman cities (Corinth, Ephesus, Philippi, etc.), are Roman provinces, so sure, those New Covenant writing must be written to the Greek people. But what about the French? Or the Slavic people? Or the Huns? But to be fair I also was among the millions of English-speaking people that think and believe the New Covenant writings were meant to and for the non-Hebrew people (Gentiles.) Would you still think the New Covenant writings were written to non-Hebrew Gentiles if they were in Hebrew? Why was the Old Testament written in Greek? Mainly, for the Hellenized, mixed cultured Hebrews who may have stopped reading and writing in Hebrew due to the Diaspora of the 8th and 6th centuries BC. No doubt the generation and their children who were conquered and Exiled to Assyria would have spoken Hebrew, but how long do you think that would have lasted? From the Assyrian conquest and Exile to when Jesus of Nazareth appeared was about 25-30 generations of Hebrews that were born in Assyria and in other Gentile lands in-between. How far and deeply would Hebrews have maintained their culture growing up generation after generation for 25-30 generations that Hebrews would have grown up in this situation? But everything is not as it seems on the face of it.

Take an honest and closer look at to whom the Galatian letter was written to, especially Galatians 3:23-29.
These sentences were to address those Jews who became born-again and were now disciples of Jesus. They were concerned with whether or not they were still belonging to Abraham's seed now that they were followers of Jesus. And for Jews who were disciples of any of their favorite Hebrew elders or religious leaders they only had one teacher, unlike today where one can be a Christ-follower but still learn from writings of Calvin, Martin Luther, Charles Hodge, John Edwards, etc. To these Jewish Christians in the first century AD they were seriously concerned whether their being Jesus followers/disciples' affected their standing under their heirship under the Abraham Covenant and those promises to Abraham (and his seed.)

23 But before faith came, we [JEWS] were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our [JEWS] schoolmaster to bring us [JEWS] unto Christ, that we [JEWS] might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we [JEWS] are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye [JEWS] are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you [JEWS] as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek [HELLENIZED MIXED HERITAGE HEBREWS] there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye [JEWS] are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [JEWS] be Christ’s, then are ye [STILL JEWS AND] Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gal. 3:23–29.

Were Gentiles ever under the schoolmaster (the Law)?
No, so why do you insert non-Hebrew Gentiles into the text?
Saul is addressing those Jews who became Jesus' disciples and concerned whether they were still Abraham's seed and heirs according to THOSE promises. Israel had entered Jeremiah's New Covenant era. There was no doctrine or written guidance to the Jew now that this Jesus came on the scene and the Holy Spirit of Promise was making His Presence felt and seen among all Jewry. The question Saul appears to be answering by these Jews who became Jesus' disciple was a valid one. But there was no instruction, no guidance, all they had was Jeremiah 31:31-34 and those verses didn't answer many specific questions.

If the New Testament writings had been preserved and disseminated solely in Hebrew, it would have fundamentally altered their reception. Non-Hebrew Gentiles, lacking fluency in the language and familiarity with Jewish scriptures and traditions, would have found the message significantly less accessible. The very nature of the messianic claims, rooted in Hebrew prophecy and covenantal theology, would have been obscured. The concept of a Messiah was deeply embedded in Jewish religious thought. The New Testament writers drew heavily on Hebrew scriptures to demonstrate Jesus's fulfillment of messianic prophecies. Without this linguistic and cultural context, non-Hebrew Gentiles would have struggled to grasp the significance of Jesus's role. Even with translation, nuances of meaning and cultural references are often lost. A Hebrew New Testament would have presented a formidable barrier to non-Hebrew Gentiles, requiring extensive interpretation and explanation. The Greek language allowed for a much wider understanding of the New Covenant writings, especially where Greek-speaking Hellenized Hebrews of mixed heritage were concerned. Maintaining the Jewish roots of Christianity while reaching out to mixed heritage Hebrews of Gentile upbringing was a delicate balancing act. Many Jews didn't accept mixed heritage Jew-Gentile offspring as Jews and all one had to do was remember the Jews attitude towards Samaritans who were mixed heritage of the Assyrian conflict with the northern kingdom tribes.

In essence, highlighting the fact that a Hebrew New Testament would have likely remained within a primarily Jewish context, and the widespread mixed heritage Hebrew adoption of Christianity was largely enabled by the use of the Greek language.

J.....
You sure do write a lot.
Are you trying to convince ME or yourself??

The OT was written to Jews.
The Covenants were made with the Jews.
The Abrahamic Covenant was made with a Hebrew,,,but included everyone that wanted to join.
The NT is for everyone that wants to join.

If the NT was preserved in Hebrew the result would have been the same.
The Apostles were sent out INTO THE WORLD AND TO EVERY NATION.

So it was written in Greek, as you must know,
WHY?
Because Greek was the lingua franca of the day and was understood by the learned and many others.
LIKE ENGLISH TODAY.

So, apparently, the NT was written so that THE MAJORITY of persons could read it,,,,,
and, of course, the letters that came before it became a BOOK,,,and also the gospels before they became part of that
BOOK...which was assembled in the 4th century.

You don't have a leg to stand on J....
Move on to something else and try to stop omitting billions of persons from the WORD OF GOD.

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five



Thats all it was Acts 17:26

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

That does not apply to the Hebrew seed of Abraham. If it does, then it applies to the seed of Abraham as the prophecy goes:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:3.

"In thee" refers to Abraham's seed, his family. Some through Ishmael, some through Esau.
Gentiles do not come from Abraham's loins or seed. It is because God has covenant with Abraham and his seed that his descendants are blessed because the promise is to his seed.

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five @GodsGrace

Jeremiah that's being dishonest with the scriptures, but you are not alone in trying to make the scriptures limited in their scope and application, in order to support one's biased doctrine, that they have come to embraced. Why not stop corrupting scriptures in this manner, and used the biblical method of hermeneutic to reveal the true biblical sense of the speaker words, which in this case would be the Lord form heaven. Biblical hermeneutics is:

Isaiah 28:9,10​

“Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:”

Isaiah 28:13​

“But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.”
Here a little and there a little until the spiritual puzzle comes together with scriptures flowing from one to another showing us the TRUTH of any particular doctrine that may be under consideration ~ this biblical method works every time.

Jesus is speaking to a Jew named Nicodemus, one of their leader. In John 3:16 we have a biblical declaration of a truth that is in the word of God.

First, he that believes in the Jesus Christ shall never perish, but will have everlasting life. Even though everlasting life is a present possession of the believer, but the reality is yet in the future.

Secondly, Jesus is revealing to Nicodemus that God's love is not limited the the Jews only, but also to the Gentiles! The world in John 3:16 is all without distinction, not all without exception, for God does make exceptions!

World equals Jews and Gentiles. Consider:

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”

Romans 9:24​

“Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

You both are wrong, the scriptures settled the argument.

The Prophet like unto Moses was prophesied to the children of Israel, right?
Right!

John the Baptist heralded the appearing to Israel of the Prophet like unto Moses, right?
Right.

Jesus Himself says He was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, right?
Right!

Jesus as High Priest offered Himself as commanded under the Law to atone for the sins of the children of Israel, right?

Jesus fulfilled the Law, especially in obeying the command to offer Himself according to the Law which sacrifices offered under the Law was to atone [yearly] for the sins of the children of Israel, right?
Right!

If Jesus failed to fulfill every precept of the Law in even the minutest detail, His sacrifice is tainted and blemished and cannot be used, right?
Right!

The Law was a "schoolmaster" to the Jews to lead them to Christ so that they could be justified by faith, right?
Right!

Nowhere in Scripture does God command the high priest to offer sacrifices for the sins of Gentiles, right?
Right!

Jesus fulfilled the Law just as commanded of the High Priest and offered no sacrifices for the sins of Gentiles, right?
Right!

The high priest prays for the children of Israel as he sacrifices the animal which is slain for the sins of the children of Israel, right?
Right!

Jesus as High Priest prays for the children of Israel right before He offers Himself an offering under the Law for the sins of the children of Israel, right? (John 17.)
Right!

Thus, as High Priest, Jesus offered Himself as sacrifice for the sins of the children of Israel, right?
Right!

The high priest, and Jesus as High Priest obeyed the Law and fulfilled the Law in being offered for the sins of the children of Israel and ONLY the children of Israel, right?
Right.

There is no Scripture under the commands of the Law and in the Ministry of Jesus as High Priest in which His sacrifice is for the sins of the Gentiles, right?
Right!

Gentiles are NOT the target group of people called the children of Israel for whom Christ died, right?
Right!

So, where does it say Gentiles are atoned because Jesus was sacrificed for Gentiles in the Law, the Psalms, or the Prophets? There is NO SCRIPTURE that says Jesus as the lamb of God died to atone for the sins of Gentiles. Where is that written?

NOWHETRE, right?
DAMN RIGHT!

Sorry, non-Hebrew Gentiles you are still in your sins and will die for your sins which will render you eternally separated from God, right? RIGHT!
Brace yourself, Dorothy, you're not in Kansas anymore!

Right?
RIGHT!

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five
Could you please give me your understanding on this passage? Rom2:26-29

26 ;Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Yes. Both Ezekial and Joel Promised in their prophecies to the children of Israel that God's Spirit is Promised to the children of Israel:

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

The above is referring to being born again by the Spirit "sanctified IN YOU" - verse 23.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

The above is end time prophecy of God gathering all of Abraham's seed, including mixed heritage Hebrews of Gentile birth during the Diaspora back into the Land of their fathers (Abe, Isaac, and Jacob.)

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. <--- this is called, "sanctification."
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:22–28.

This new birth by the Spirit of God is promised to the children of Israel (verse 22.)

27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the LORD your God, and none else:
And my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward,
That I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids
In those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth,
Blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
Before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:
For in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance,
As the LORD hath said,
And in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joel 2:27–32.

God's Spirit is Promised to Israel, NOT Gentiles. There is NO SCRIPTURE that says God promised His Spirit to Gentiles - unless one was a mixed heritage Hebrew-Gentile for such person is still the seed of Abraham no matter the dilution of Abraham's DNA in their veins. The LORD knows them that are His.

There is a "book" of life of the lamb that contains the names of all the LORD's elect and chosen people, a people chosen from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world.
God was busy in the heavenly Tabernacle before He created heaven, earth, and man.
He did in eternity, in Himself, that which in the process of time He was to do in time.
That is, to save a people through covenant and this people are Abraham and his seed.
A people identified as the children of Israel (Jacob.)

 

[jeremiah1five]

J.....
You sure do write a lot.
Are you trying to convince ME or yourself??

Don't think too highly of yourself. You're not the only one who will read this.

The OT was written to Jews.
The Covenants were made with the Jews.
The Abrahamic Covenant was made with a Hebrew,,,but included everyone that wanted to join.

Let's test that:

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen. 17:7.

Nope. The requirement is to be born of Abraham's Promised seed, not everyone.

The NT is for everyone that wants to join.

If the NT was preserved in Hebrew the result would have been the same.
The Apostles were sent out INTO THE WORLD AND TO EVERY NATION.

In every nation was where the majority of Jews lived due to the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests and Exiles.

So it was written in Greek, as you must know,
WHY?
Because Greek was the lingua franca of the day and was understood by the learned and many others.
LIKE ENGLISH TODAY.

Because there was the majority of Jews lived in Gentile lands heavily influenced by Greek culture. The New Covenant writings were written to Hellenized Jews who grew up Gentiles under a Greek culture.

So, apparently, the NT was written so that THE MAJORITY of persons could read it,,,,,
and, of course, the letters that came before it became a BOOK,,,and also the gospels before they became part of that
BOOK...which was assembled in the 4th century.

Assembled by Gentiles. Who gave them authority to do that? It was in order to combat heresy, but the command did not come from God. It came from men.

You don't have a leg to stand on J....
Move on to something else and try to stop omitting billions of persons from the WORD OF GOD.

The New Covenant that was established in the body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ is between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah.
There are no Gentiles named or mentioned when this covenant was prophesied.
Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Do you see any mention of Gentiles?

 

[Red Baker]

RB
I agree with the above.
So what am I wrong about??

@GodsGrace

Fran, you believe in John 3:16 the world means all without "exception", whereas, the scriptures teaches that the world means all without "distinction", a huge different in the interpretation of Jesus' teaching.

 

[Red Baker]

@jeremiah1five

That does not apply to the Hebrew seed of Abraham. If it does, then it applies to the seed of Abraham as the prophecy goes:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:3.

"In thee" refers to Abraham's seed, his family. Some through Ishmael, some through Esau.
Gentiles do not come from Abraham's loins or seed. It is because God has covenant with Abraham and his seed that his descendants are blessed because the promise is to his seed.

Jeremiah, you should do dream a lot, only in your dreams is this so. "In thee" refers to Abraham seed, which Paul (whom you call Sqaul, his Hebrew name, yet God called him by his Gentiles name Paul, since he was sent to them in fulfillment of Genesis 12:1-3; etc.) said is CHRIST, yet you calim it refers to Abraham's elect seed through Abraham! Nothing more than a Jewish fables that we are to beware of, and reject and expose when we come face to face with it.

Galatians 3:16~“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Galatians 3:16

Galatians 3:27-29~“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
You said: "That does not apply to the Hebrew seed of Abraham. If it does, then it applies to the seed of Abraham as the prophecy goes:"
We agree it does not apply to Abraham's natural seed, but disagree that it applies to his elect seed coming from his loins. The promises in Genesis 12:1-3 is to Abraham SEED, as of ONE, not many! Read how Paul intrepreted Genesis 12;1-3 under the inspiration of God, does not this mean anything to you? If not, then you have closed your eyes to the truth, and God has harden you in your rejection of his word.

Jeremiah I have a couple of questions for you:

Concerning God's promise to Abraham: What about an innumerable family?

Revelation 5:9-10~“And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”

Revelation 7:9-10~“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.”

What about blessings on all the nations of the earth?​

Romans 1:5~“By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for
his name:”

Romans 16:26~“But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:”

Galatians 3:8~“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”

Again: Revelation 5:9-10~“And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”

Not that God took Abraham's elect seed through his loins our of every nations, but that he redeemed Christ chosen seed out of every KINDRED, an dtongue, and people, and nation!

Jeremiah, are you a Jew by nature (Galatians 2:15) from Abraham's loins, if yes, how do you even know that to be so? I'll answer your other post soon.

 

[Red Baker]

@jeremiah1five

The Prophet like unto Moses was prophesied to the children of Israel, right?
Right!

John the Baptist heralded the appearing to Israel of the Prophet like unto Moses, right?
Right.

Jesus Himself says He was sent to right?
Right!

The first two, yes; the third one yes, nevertheless, Jesus showed mercy to others who were not of IsraelEven in the very scriptures reference you to your question from.

Matthew 15:21-28​

“Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”

Yes, the Lord Jesus was sent unto the house of Israel, but few in Israel had the faith of this Canaanitish woman! The Lord Jesus showing slowly the hidden mystery in the OT scriptures concerning the Gentiles being blessed in Christ, the promised seed. Judah (The Jews) and Israel (the Gentiles) becoming ONE fold in Christ. The tabernacle of David fallen in Adam, raised up in Christ, both Jews and Gentiles.

Acts 15:15-18​

“And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.”

The Tabernacle of David is a spiritual temple made up of both Jews and Gentiles for an habitation of God's Spirit. Ephesians 2:11-3:6.

Jesus as High Priest offered Himself as commanded under the Law to atone for the sins of the children of Israel, right?

Jesus is the high priest of a better covenant, secured by better promises., that includes all kindred on the face of the earth. Hebrews 6:13-10:39. Christ even preach this before he went to the cross.:

John 12:32​

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

All men, is all without distinction, Jews and Gentiles from every kindred, tongue and nations, tribe, etc.

Jesus fulfilled the Law, especially in obeying the command to offer Himself according to the Law which sacrifices offered under the Law was to atone [yearly] for the sins of the children of Israel, right?
Right!

If Jesus failed to fulfill every precept of the Law in even the minutest detail, His sacrifice is tainted and blemished and cannot be used, right?
Right!

Your two questions is correct, your first one, we would agree, if applied to spiritual Israel, not natural.

Jesus as High Priest prays for the children of Israel right before He offers Himself an offering under the Law for the sins of the children of Israel, right? (John 17.)
Right!

True, the spiritual Israel~per Romans 2:28,29. 9:8; etc.

Romans 9:8​

“That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

There is no Scripture under the commands of the Law and in the Ministry of Jesus as High Priest in which His sacrifice is for the sins of the Gentiles, right?
Right!

Gentiles are NOT the target group of people called the children of Israel for whom Christ died, right?
Right!

So, where does it say Gentiles are atoned because Jesus was sacrificed for Gentiles in the Law, the Psalms, or the Prophets? There is NO SCRIPTURE that says Jesus as the lamb of God died to atone for the sins of Gentiles. Where is that written?

Coming back to address this since it may take a more space than I should give it here in this post.

 

[GodsGrace]

Don't think too highly of yourself. You're not the only one who will read this.

Let's test that:

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen. 17:7.

Nope. The requirement is to be born of Abraham's Promised seed, not everyone.

In every nation was where the majority of Jews lived due to the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests and Exiles.

Because there was the majority of Jews lived in Gentile lands heavily influenced by Greek culture. The New Covenant writings were written to Hellenized Jews who grew up Gentiles under a Greek culture.

Assembled by Gentiles. Who gave them authority to do that? It was in order to combat heresy, but the command did not come from God. It came from men.

The New Covenant that was established in the body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ is between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah.
There are no Gentiles named or mentioned when this covenant was prophesied.
Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Do you see any mention of Gentiles?

I see plenty of mention of Gentiles,,,but you never reply to my specific verses....
you carry on with your tirades instead. By tirade I mean paragraphs with no breaks which are pretty much unreadable.
No reply to my post but just carrying on with your ideology.

So it makes posting pretty useless.

Abraham was going to be the Father of many nations.
Father of NATIONS...
Not the Jews that lived in them.

The New Covenant is for EVERYONE...not just the Jews.
Baptism is for EVERYONE that believes.
It takes the place of the sign of circumcision in the Mosaic Covenant.
The new sign is baptism....and the Apostles baptized those that came to believe
AND THEY WERE NOT ALL JEWS.

You believe in a weird theology J.
You pay no attention to Romans 1 and 2 which I've posted to you and to which you did not reply.

So if I post something to you and instead of answering you just continue with YOUR ideas...
this is called speaking past each other.

It's a "conversation" that will bring to no good fruit.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

Fran, you believe in John 3:16 the world means all without "exception", whereas, the scriptures teaches that the world means all without "distinction", a huge different in the interpretation of Jesus' teaching.

Oh. I see.
Yes, I mean ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
Because I believe in the UNLIMITED ATONEMENT of Jesus.
Jesus died for the whole world.
He bought us back from satan.

1 John 2:2
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
(there are many more verses regarding this, this thread is about free will)

So yes, John 3:16 means that Jesus died FOR THE WHOLE WORLD....FOR EVERYBODY.

Now go ahead and tell me I'm a universalist
or
Try to figure out why not everyone is saved if John 3:16 means FOR THE WHOLE WORLD,,,,,,,,
and yet not everyone is saved.

BINGO.
Because we have FREE WILL.
It is up to us to CHOOSE to be saved by believing in Jesus.

See RB...no need for me to make up odd ideas about words like "all without exception" or "all without distinction"
because I believe ALL OF THE BIBLE and as it is written...
NOT as some MEN who are reformed/calvinist in theology have taught it.

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five


Jeremiah, you should do dream a lot, only in your dreams is this so. "In thee" refers to Abraham seed, which Paul (whom you call Sqaul, his Hebrew name, yet God called him by his Gentiles name Paul, since he was sent to them in fulfillment of Genesis 12:1-3; etc.) said is CHRIST, yet you calim it refers to Abraham's elect seed through Abraham! Nothing more than a Jewish fables that we are to beware of, and reject and expose when we come face to face with it.

The passage says, "in thee" meaning, "in Abraham."

Galatians 3:16~“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Galatians 3:16

Galatians 3:27-29~“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
You said: "That does not apply to the Hebrew seed of Abraham. If it does, then it applies to the seed of Abraham as the prophecy goes:"
We agree it does not apply to Abraham's natural seed, but disagree that it applies to his elect seed coming from his loins. The promises in Genesis 12:1-3 is to Abraham SEED, as of ONE, not many! Read how Paul intrepreted Genesis 12;1-3 under the inspiration of God, does not this mean anything to you? If not, then you have closed your eyes to the truth, and God has harden you in your rejection of his word.

When God spoke it to Abraham, he understood it to mean, "in him." There is no discussion of a Christ or anything else. It was a personal communication between God and Abraham, and he understood what God was saying.

The blessings extend to Abraham's seed and his descendants that will be born still yet future. There were families that were born to Abraham such as the descendants of Ishmael and Esau, and both were blessed because of God's promise to bless his (Abraham's) seed even if the promise did not go through their descendants.

Jeremiah I have a couple of questions for you:

Concerning God's promise to Abraham: What about an innumerable family?

Revelation 5:9-10~“And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”

Revelation 7:9-10~“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.”

What about blessings on all the nations of the earth?​

Romans 1:5~“By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for
his name:”

Romans 16:26~“But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:”

Galatians 3:8~“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”

Again: Revelation 5:9-10~“And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”

Not that God took Abraham's elect seed through his loins our of every nations, but that he redeemed Christ chosen seed out of every KINDRED, an dtongue, and people, and nation!

Jeremiah, are you a Jew by nature (Galatians 2:15) from Abraham's loins, if yes, how do you even know that to be so? I'll answer your other post soon.

What throws off Gentiles today is the fact that the New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation are written in Greek. And because of this fact Gentiles believe these Scriptures were written to them, to Gentiles. But the audience to whom these writings were written to were the mixed heritage Hebrews who grew up for 25-30 generations in Gentile lands heavily influenced by Greek culture, so much so that these mixed heritage Hebrew men were not even circumcised because they assimilated so deeply into this foreign culture that the Law of Moses meant nothing to them. But God sent Saul into these Gentile territories in order to reach these descendants of Abraham. He was apostle to the Gentiles, right?

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:11–13.

Here are the facts that are overlooked today.
In 722 BC God sent the Assyrians as punishment for the idolatry of the ten northern kingdom tribes. When Assyria was a world power, Israel was captured and its people exiled northward to the area whence Abraham had come so long ago. Hezekiah was then the king of Judah, a good king who listened to Isaiah, God's prophet, so the kingdom of Judah was spared and only Israel, the ten tribes, were taken. Recall Hezekiah spreading out those letters and praying to the LORD. Recall the 185,000 Assyrians destroyed by one angel in one night. But when the Babylonians came to dominate the world, Coniah was the king in Judah. He was evil, so it was Judah's turn to be conquered. In 586 BC the people of Judah were conquered and exiled in Babylon. Jerusalem and its temple were destroyed. King Coniah became like a shattered jar as Jeremiah had prophesied, and none of Coniah's descendants could reign any more on David's throne in Judah. Babylon defeated Assyria. The Neo-Babylonian Empire, under Nabopolassar, played a key role in the fall of the Assyrian Empire, culminating in the defeat of the last Assyrian king in 609 BC.

However, it was the Persian king, Cyrus, who overthrew the Babylonian regime and permitted the Jews to return to their homeland. The ten tribes of Israel were taken captive by the Assyrians in 722/21 BC. While some returned, many were scattered. Israel was desolate, its people, the ten tribes, taken first to Assyria then later the two tribes were taken to Babylon and Israel as a nation ceased to exist. From 722 BC to when Christ appeared were about 29-36 generations of Jews who grew up in Gentile lands heavily influenced by Greek culture mixed in with Assyrian and Babylonian culture.
The Jews maintained a connection to the Land of Israel through religious practices, prayers, and an enduring hope of eventual return. While some Jews assimilated, some also continued to follow Jewish law (halakhah).
Following a decree by the Persian King Cyrus (ca. 521 BC), about 50,000 Jews returned to the Land of Israel. Later, another group of about 5,000 returned with Ezra. This number is called a "remnant." If 50,000 is a remnant consisting of about 5% to 10%, then the number of Jews that remained in Gentile lands numbered about 500,000 to 750,000 Jews or more than half a million stayed in Babylon and in areas around Assyria, and in Gentile lands in-between.
https://www.ajc.org/news/5-facts-about-the-jewish-peoples-ancestral-connection-to-the-land-of-israel
When we get to the birth of Jesus both northern kingdom tribes and southern kingdom tribes live in Israel. How do I know? Peter identifies both ten tribes and two tribes in his sermon ("Ye men of Judah" and "Ye men of Israel." Acts 2:14 and 22.) And this was also because of the Jewish Feast of Harvest (Pentecost) was being observed by all Jewry and were in attendance in Jerusalem. The tongues spoken by the eleven disciples identify seventeen provinces or locations on the map even as far as Rome (Acts 2:9-11.) Jesus was that "Prophet like unto Moses" and He was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel of twelve tribes. In the gospels Jesus sent the twelve into both Gentile-held locations locally where Jews did live, and to Jews in Jewish occupied lands in and around Israel. The twelve disciples heralded the appearance of Israel's Savior, Messiah, and King. Only Jews living in and around Israel were acquainted with this Jesus of Nazareth. This meant that over half a million to 750,000 Jews living in Gentile lands knew nothing about Jesus. Before Jesus ascended, He sent His eleven disciples (from Mount of Olives) to the four cardinal points of the compass - east, west, north, and south - to herald the past three years events concerning Jesus to Jews everywhere they could be found. It was important to God to let His covenant people know Messiah had come and God has kept His Promise. But and until the persecution that occurred after the death of Stephen the disciples were still in Jerusalem after about eight years since ascension. Two to four years after Jesus' ascension Saul met the Lord on the Damascus road and God told him he was going to be sent among the Gentiles with a similar message as the eleven disciples for the Jews but there was something else Saul was able to provide. A more thorough theological explanation of the New Covenant era Israel found itself in. After Saul's conversion he remained obedient to the Law and disappeared for fourteen to seventeen years in order to search the Hebrew Scripture for biblical understanding of the New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah. His message, along with the witness of three thousand Jews that became born-again at Pentecost who returned to their countries of origin took a message that was Jewish in nature to mostly every Jew they met on Roman roads on their return home about Jesus, an outline of Peter's sermon, and their experience with the Holy Spirit of Promise in their lives. You know about those two disciples talking about Jesus on the road to Emmaus? This was that but on a grander scale of a thousand-fold. Until Saul began his travels Jews were being born-again in the hundreds and in the thousands every day as the Holy Spirit began to fulfill Joel's prophecy. By the time Saul left on his travels, Jewish home churches were popping up everywhere in the Roman Empire. And there is a reason Jewish Christianity left off from the synagogues and into Jewish Christian homes. Saul's message to Jews living in and among Gentiles was to bring a Biblical explanation to Jews experiencing the Holy Spirit. And these experiences were occurring to Jews. Everything about the New Covenant and the things taking place among Jewry was covenant-fueled. This was the God of Abraham dealing with His covenant people under the Law fulfilled but under the Law, nevertheless.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.


19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.
John 17:18–20.

The gospels were written to and for the Jews. The epistles were written to and for the Jews. It was their covenant, and God was fulfilling Jewish prophecy left and right. When Saul made his declaration that He was going among the Gentiles that was because the majority of Jews and mixed heritage Jews lived in Gentile lands. Jesus was their Messiah. And the Jews needed to know about the things taking place among Israel and the Jews. These mixed heritage Jews grew up as Gentile and they needed to know their heritage, of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:11–13.

True, Biblical Christianity is moored to the Hebrew Scripture for it is the fulfillment of prophecies found in the Hebrew Scripture, and it was all happening to Israel. The Jews didn't reject Jesus. There were only hundreds and thousands that cried out for him when Pilate asked who to set free - Jesus or Barabbas. The majority of Jews living in Gentile lands knew nothing about what was taking place in Jerusalem on that Passover observance. The question was not in the hands of men but in God's. And it was all revealed in Scripture - even the existence of heathenistic, mixed heritage Hebrews who in practice were Gentile heavily infused by Greek culture. But they were the majority and God sent messengers to reach out to them as Promised.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matt. 15:24.

You should believe Him.

 

[Jim]

@GodsGrace

Fran, you believe in John 3:16 the world means all without "exception", whereas, the scriptures teaches that the world means all without "distinction", a huge different in the interpretation of Jesus' teaching.

No, the scriptures do not teach that the world in John 3:16 means all without distinction. That should be obvious from the whole passage of John 3:16-21. Clearly the "world" in that passage speaks of both those who believe and the those who do not believe. Specifically, verses 19 and 20 speaks of those in the world who hate the light.

So we need to understand that Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world. Nevertheless, He will come back to judge the world. He had every right to condemn the world; every last person in the world had sinned, even those who would come to believe in Him.

I have said before, when God demands that we love our enemies, He could not mean that we should love those that he does not love. There are only two kinds of people here, friends and enemies. We are told to love both. Consequently, it can only mean that God loves both. The distinction is not who God loves since He loves His creation. but rather the distinction is those who love God.

 

[Red Baker]

@GodsGrace

See RB...no need for me to make up odd ideas about words like "all without exception" or "all without distinction"
because I believe ALL OF THE BIBLE and as it is written...
NOT as some MEN who are reformed/calvinist in theology have taught it.

Greetings Fran,

You do not need to make up anything, what one needs to do is to reconcile scriptures with each other, it is just that simple.

Fran, trust me, I'm not following Reformed theology, even if some of them believe in portions of what I and other see, and believe, and teach. As a matter of truth, I understood this sense many years ago, when considering whom Jesus was talking to, and what he was revealing to him and us, who believe the scriptures. It is not that communicated ~ I'm a pretty simple person, with no education to speak of. Of course, neither did the apostles, afterall, they were fishermen, tent makers, very down to earth simple folks we all meant in our everyday life of living ~ very seldom do I come into contact with famous people, highly educated, (with an exception to my children and grandchildren who have done well in the institutions of higher learning) comparison to many we are in a spiritual warfare with.

1 John 2:2
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
(there are many more verses regarding this, this thread is about free will)

Fran, without question you are a very sincere believer, one that fears God it seems to me, yet, you are not dealing with a young believer that has not many times over addressed such scriptures as this one. This scripture is very simple to make it flow with all other scriptures, no problem whatsoever.

John was a apostle to the Jews (per Galatians 2:9) is writing to them and reminding them that Jesus was not only the propitiation for them (Jews~and not all Jews, but the children of God's promises among them! Romans 9:7,8 ~ but also for the world, meaning Gentiles, and not all of them, but only for the children of God's promises (among them) through Christ, their surety.

"(there are many more verses regarding this, this thread is about free will)"~Fran I know them all, and some you may have never considered, but I have over the years.

Because we have FREE WILL.
It is up to us to CHOOSE to be saved by believing in Jesus.

Adam had a free will to chose to do spiritual acts pleasing to God, but he sinned and became in bondage to Satan and sin. Man, is no longer free to do spiritual acts pleasing to God, and neither does he even desire to do so! His flesh is at enmity against God, not just an enemy, which is bad enough, but he's at constant war against God. And, we might add, even after one is born again, this warfare is far from being over, actually it just truly begin, which we can win this fight through the new man within us.

 

[MTMattie]

Thank you and Blessings @GodsGrace ,

I just want to side comment to you for your comment on those difficult to read posts. Only thing worse would be if they were one long run on sentence.

Yours are very comfortable to read and thoroughly understandable.

Thank you.

 

[Jim]

Adam had a free will to chose to do spiritual acts pleasing to God, but he sinned and became in bondage to Satan and sin. Man, is no longer free to do spiritual acts pleasing to God, and neither does he even desire to do so! His flesh is at enmity against God, not just an enemy, which is bad enough, but he's at constant war against God.

God's first recorded words after Adam and Eve were rejected from the Garden says you are wrong about all of that. God's words to Cain are a clear refutation of that false doctrine.

 

[Kermos]

God's first recorded words after Adam and Eve were rejected from the Garden says you are wrong about all of that. God's words to Cain are a clear refutation of that false doctrine.

Are you referring to "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" (Genesis 3:22) where the Word of God declares that man was not knowing good and evil before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6)?

 

[civic]

I believe my Leader Jesus “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

“For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake” (Philippians 1:29).

Regarding blessed in the Spirit Paul's "by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8), you quoted support for your free-will belief "Salvation (eternal life) is the gift not faith" as founded upon your leader Calvin's words being "But Paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God".

Please note, Romans 6:23 does not exclude grace nor faith as the gift of God.

Your grammatical error resides in "And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part" where you (1) indiscriminately eliminate the feminine noun faith while retaining the feminine noun grace, (2) unilaterally associated the most distant word grace while disassociating the nearest word faith in relation to the word that, and (3) use illegal Greek grammar to bind the word that to the verb saved at the exclusion of the noun faith. The following delves into the legal Greek grammar.

The True Grammar of Ephesians 2:8-10​

The Apostle Paul wrote:

​

"by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).​

​

In Ephesians chapter 2, Paul introduces the development for the concept of "by grace you have been saved" in Ephesians 2:5, then Paul proceeded through the intervening verses to the fully developed big reveal of "by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" in Ephesians 2:8.

Paul expanded on what he started to talk about in Ephesians 2:5; moreover, in Ephesians 2:8, Paul makes it Spiritually and grammatically clear that faith is inextricably included in the "not of yourselves, it is the gift of God".

The Greek grammar of Ephesians 2:8 is multi-faceted, so let's look at these ten words, at constructs such as Greek language case/gender/number which establish communication, so here they are:

• grace - noun - dative/feminine/singular
• you is exclusively the subject in (Ephesians 2:8), and "you" is derived from the second person and plural count of the inflection of the verb "are".
• are - verb - is a present, indicative, active verb in the second person and plural count
• saved - verb - nominative/masculine/plural
• faith - noun - genitive/feminine/singular
• and - conjunction
• that - demonstrative pronoun - nominative/neuter/singular
• yourselves - personal pronoun - genitive in the second person with plural count.
• God - noun - genitive/masculine/singular
• gift - noun - nominative/neuter/singular

Since both "you" and "yourselves" are second person and plural count, then the word "yourselves" refers specifically to the complete sentence subject of "you"; therefore, the word "that" arbitrates the thing that is "not of yourselves" as well as "the gift of God".

A noun is the subject of a sentence, and a verb is an action by or on the subject of the sentence; moreover, a verb is not the subject of a sentence, and this is fundamental grammar.

A nuance of inflective languages is that a sentence's verb can concretely indicate the sentence's subject noun without including the specific word for the noun in the sentence. Both Greek and Spanish are examples of such inflective languages.

In Ephesians 2:8, the Greek verb ἐστε (Strong’s 1510 – εἰμί – eimi – am, are, is) translates to the English verb "are", and we know ἐστε equals “are” because of the inflection of ἐστε which is both second person, "you", and this "you" is plural; therefore, the Greek verb ἐστε (are) implicitly indicates the sentence’s subject noun “you” for this sentence:

​

For by grace you are saved through faith​

(Ephesians 2:8)​

​

The English word "you" is concretely the subject.

As is clearly evident in Ephesians 2:8, Paul utilized no full grammatical inflective agreement between the words, for example, he did not precisely tie objects back to the subject using case/number/gender agreement.

There is a principle in Greek grammar which dictates that in the absence of full inflective agreement, then the word order in the sentence becomes paramount, so the word order in Ephesians 2:8 dictates relationship between the words.

Essentially, this principle of Greek grammar word order antecedent placement results in the fact that the phrase "faith and that not of yourselves" is specifically stating that faith is not of man while at the same time specifically stating faith is truly the work of God because of "it is the gift of God".

As a minimum basis, the word order principle plays a role in the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8.

There is more to the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8, such as "God" and "faith" are the only genitive and singular two words in Ephesians 2:8, and both of these words have an antecedent that is neuter, and a neuter can be an antecedent to both masculine words and feminine words, so this grammatical structure binds the words "God" and "faith" together in Ephesians 2:8, and yet there is more to the grammatical structure such that the following is entirely Truth (John 14:6).

We have 3 clauses in Ephesians 2:8:

• by grace you are saved through faith
• and that not of yourselves
• it is the gift of God

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is "not of yourselves".

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is "the gift of God".

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is composed of the constituent parts of "grace" and "saved" and "faith".

When taken as a linguistic whole, Ephesians 2:8 results in this Truth (John 14:6) that the entirety of

• grace is not a work of man while being the work of God.
• saved is not a work of man while being the work of God.
• faith is not a work of man while being the work of God.

in Paul's writing of

​

by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work​

(Ephesians 2:8-10)​

​

One of the grammatical functions of the genitive case is to establish association between two nouns. Paul used the genitive and singular combination for only two words in Ephesians 2:8, and these two words are the masculine "God" and the feminine "faith".

In Ephesians 2:9, Paul makes it clear that the work of faith is not a work of man, yet the surrounding verses of Ephesians 2:8 and Ephesians 2:10 clearly state that faith is the work of God because we are his work (Ephesians 2:10).

The Apostle Paul is in accord with Lord Jesus Christ's sayings of "This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE SOVEREIGN LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!

wrong as you misrepresent the bible.

not true see below in Ephesians 2:8

1- salvation - being saved is by grace
2- salvation by grace comes by/thought faith ( genitive case )
3- salvation by grace does not come from yourself- this ( nominative case ) refers to salvation ( nominative case ) which is the gift by Gods grace.
4- salvation is the gift (nominative case )of Gods grace

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.

Barnes the Calvinist Theologian agrees below- faith is mans responsibility.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
This is the work of God - This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth, Romans 10:4.

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.

And AT Robertson the premier NT Greek Scholar below refutes your Greek nonsense.

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.


hope this helps !!!