An Article on free will

[Jim]

Are you referring to "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" (Genesis 3:22) where the Word of God declares that man was not knowing good and evil before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6)?

No, I am referring to God's words to Cain: Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted?

Calvinism declares that Cain could not possibly do well.

 

[Kermos]

How those at Phillipi were granted faith


Acts 16:9–12 (KJV 1900) — 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them. 11 Therefore loosing from Troas, we came with a straight course to Samothracia, and the next day to Neapolis; 12 And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days.



Paul is not saying that their faith was given to them, but that the opportunity to believe was given to them by God's grace as God sent Paul there to present the gospel and plant the church:



Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 185). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.

Paul was given a vision which caused him to go to Philippi and preach the gospel

You have assumed a unilateral giving in which the men played no part

That is pure assumption

First, there is the problem of describing faith as an infused or transmitted substance. Faith is not analogous to a current of electricity that passes through a conduit and results in a release of mechanical energy. Neither is faith to be likened to water sprinkled upon a seed planted in potted soil. These illustrations of faith confuse the instrument of salvation, faith, with the agent of salvation, the Holy Spirit. It should instead be suggested that faith is a human response, i.e., a Spirit-prompted conviction of the truth of the redemptive merits of Christ.

Second, the concept of infused faith for salvation bears a marked resemblance to the sacramentalism of the Roman Catholic Church. That is to say, faith becomes a transmitted and efficacious element which God gives to men for salvation. Again, it must be emphasized that faith is not a substance, but a human response prompted by the Holy Spirit.

Third, if faith is a gift, then men no longer bear the responsibility to believe the Gospel. The term believe becomes an equivocal expression if regeneration occurs before faith (i.e., the view of those who consider faith to be a gift of God).

Fourth and finally, an infused idea of faith engenders a less-than-balanced view of sanctification, i.e., victory in the spiritual life is viewed as a virtual guarantee. If God gives believers faith to live the Christian life, then the difficult aspects of progressive holiness commanded in Scripture tend to be soft-pedaled.

Given- χαρίζομαι

it means to be permitted or granted something (1 Cor. 2:12; Phil. 1:29; Phile. 1:22).1

1 Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament (Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers, 2000).

Grant (Oxford dictionaries)



1usually with two objects Agree to give or allow (something requested) to.

‘they were granted a meeting’

‘her request was granted’

More example sentencesSynonyms

1. 1.1 Give (a right, power, property, etc.) formally or legally to.
2. ‘they will grant you asylum’

it means to be permitted or granted something (1 Cor. 2:12; Phil. 1:29; Phile. 1:22).



Syn.: dídōmi<G1325>,



Complete word study Dictionary



But, in their worldview, God has chosen to save those have ‘saving faith’ and them alone. The problem with the answer is two fold: 1) How it can be shown from the Bible that ‘saving faith’ is something ultimately generated by an unregenerated man’s inherent character (i.e. his intellect, his wisdom, and his spirituality).



How about everywhere (Eze 18:30-32; Acts 11:18; 15:9; John 5:40, John 6:53; 6:57; 12:36; 20:31; John 1:12-13; Gal 3: 2,5; 3:26; Eph 1:13; Col 2:12; 2 Cor 3:14-16; 1 Tim 1:16; James 1:8). Not one time in the Bible does regeneration precede faith. Each time the Bible discusses such things, faith precedes regeneration. Remember, it is from an in-born, Image of God, ability/characteristic, not an unregenerated, self-built character.



God does grant us the ability to believe and suffer for His sake. But “granting” or “enabling” faith, or the subsequent suffering that may result, is not the same as “effectually causing it.” Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Rom. 10:11-14), which is sent (or granted) first to the Jew and then the Gentile (Rom. 1:16). In other words, God is enabling faith by bringing the word of faith (His revelation), which is said to go first to Israel and then to “the high-ways and by-ways…the good and bad alike” (see the wedding banquet parable in Matt. 22). Remember, during the time of Paul, the Jews, generally speaking, had grown calloused to God’s revelation, otherwise they might have seen, heard, understood and turned to God, so the apostles took the message of repentance to the Gentiles, who unlike the Jews, “were willing to listen” (see Acts 28:27-28; John 12:39-41; Romans 9-11).

Lets see

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Only salvation is mentioned


Um I quoted a premiere Greek scholar

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

Did you fail to see it is salvation which is God's gift

Further, I stated nothing whatsoever about retaining grace or making it the gift. In fact, my quote shows both to be feminine and thus inconsistent with a neuter touto.

You need to correct your fallacious claim.

The love of Christ controls us (2 Corinthians 5:14) Christians “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29).

Holy Spirit inspired Paul wrote "by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).

Let's review your grammatical error which resides in "And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part" where you (1) indiscriminately eliminate the feminine noun faith while retaining the feminine noun grace, (2) unilaterally associated the most distant word grace while disassociating the nearest word faith in relation to the word that, and (3) use illegal Greek grammar to bind the word that to the verb saved at the exclusion of the noun faith. The following delves into the legal Greek grammar along with the details in post #7,315.

I carefully read your writing. You wrote "saved by grace", so you unilaterally bound the most distant noun grace exclusively with and that.

I carefully read your writing. You wrote "saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part", so you unilaterally associated the most distant noun grace while disassociating the nearest noun faith with and that.

I carefully read your writing. You wrote "so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also)", yet you immediately contradict yourself with "saved by grace".

I carefully read your writing. You wrote "so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also)", yet you immediately associate "saved by grace" thus you associated the most distant noun "χαρις [charis] (feminine also)" with "And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē]" as "not of yourselves, it is the gift of God".

I carefully read your writing. You wrote "conditioned on faith on our part", so you immediately excluded the nearest noun "πιστις [pistis] (feminine)" from "not of yourselves, it is the gift of God".

I understand your writing, TomL, there. You believe that you are your own savior since another implication of your "saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part" is that you hold faith is of yourselves as per your own writing.

Holy Spirit inspired Paul declares "grace", "you are saved", and "faith" are all "not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).

I understand your writing, TomL, there, where you excluded yourself from God’s giving of belief on Christ “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake” (Philippians 1:29). You wrote the very opposite of Holy Spirit inspired Paul with your "Paul is not saying that their faith was given to them".

Essentially, everything that God caused me to compose in post #7,315, to which you replied, is Truth (John 14:6).

 

[civic]

The love of Christ controls us (2 Corinthians 5:14) Christians “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29).

Holy Spirit inspired Paul wrote "by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).

Let's review your grammatical error which resides in "And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part" where you (1) indiscriminately eliminate the feminine noun faith while retaining the feminine noun grace, (2) unilaterally associated the most distant word grace while disassociating the nearest word faith in relation to the word that, and (3) use illegal Greek grammar to bind the word that to the verb saved at the exclusion of the noun faith. The following delves into the legal Greek grammar along with the details in post #7,315.

I carefully read your writing. You wrote "saved by grace", so you unilaterally bound the most distant noun grace exclusively with and that.

I carefully read your writing. You wrote "saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part", so you unilaterally associated the most distant noun grace while disassociating the nearest noun faith with and that.

I carefully read your writing. You wrote "so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also)", yet you immediately contradict yourself with "saved by grace".

I carefully read your writing. You wrote "so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also)", yet you immediately associate "saved by grace" thus you associated the most distant noun "χαρις [charis] (feminine also)" with "And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē]" as "not of yourselves, it is the gift of God".

I carefully read your writing. You wrote "conditioned on faith on our part", so you immediately excluded the nearest noun "πιστις [pistis] (feminine)" from "not of yourselves, it is the gift of God".

I understand your writing, TomL, there. You believe that you are your own savior since another implication of your "saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part" is that you hold faith is of yourselves as per your own writing.

Holy Spirit inspired Paul declares "grace", "you are saved", and "faith" are all "not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).

I understand your writing, TomL, there, where you excluded yourself from God’s giving of belief on Christ “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake” (Philippians 1:29). You wrote the very opposite of Holy Spirit inspired Paul with your "Paul is not saying that their faith was given to them".

Essentially, everything that God caused me to compose in post #7,315, to which you replied, is Truth (John 14:6).

wrong as you misrepresent the bible. you are a far cry from careful when it comes to the bible with your fatalism.

not true see below in Ephesians 2:8

1- salvation - being saved is by grace
2- salvation by grace comes by/thought faith ( genitive case )
3- salvation by grace does not come from yourself- this ( nominative case ) refers to salvation ( nominative case ) which is the gift by Gods grace.
4- salvation is the gift (nominative case )of Gods grace

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.

Barnes the Calvinist Theologian agrees below- faith is mans responsibility.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
This is the work of God - This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth, Romans 10:4.

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.

And AT Robertson the premier NT Greek Scholar below refutes your Greek nonsense.

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.


hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

That does not apply to the Hebrew seed of Abraham. If it does, then it applies to the seed of Abraham as the prophecy goes:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:3.

"In thee" refers to Abraham's seed, his family. Some through Ishmael, some through Esau.
Gentiles do not come from Abraham's loins or seed. It is because God has covenant with Abraham and his seed that his descendants are blessed because the promise is to his seed.

It applies to man coming out of adam

 

[Kermos]

No, I am referring to God's words to Cain: Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted?

Calvinism declares that Cain could not possibly do well.

Jim, you did write:

God's first recorded words after Adam and Eve were rejected from the Garden says you are wrong about all of that.

as your first complete thought/sentence in your post, so that thought of yours reconciles to God's first recorded words after Adam and Eve were rejected from the Garden of "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" (Genesis 3:22) where the Word of God declares that man was not knowing good and evil before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6).

And your post concluded with:

God's words to Cain are a clear refutation of that false doctrine.

Which comes after Genesis 3, that is, Cain is not introduced until the history recorded in Genesis 4. We Christians know that Cain did not do well (Genesis 4:8), and no Word of God states that Cain was imparted with the ability to do good.

 

[Jim]

Jim, you did write:



as your first complete thought/sentence in your post, so that thought of yours reconciles to God's first recorded words after Adam and Eve were rejected from the Garden of "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" (Genesis 3:22) where the Word of God declares that man was not knowing good and evil before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6).

And your post concluded with:



Which comes after Genesis 3, that is, Cain is not introduced until the history recorded in Genesis 4. We Christians know that Cain did not do well (Genesis 4:8), and no Word of God states that Cain was imparted with the ability to do good.

Wrong!

 

[civic]

Wrong!

ditto

 

[synergy]

He is not willing to discuss anything brother.

J.

Maybe we should do what He does to us. With nobody to respond to his heresies and rants, he might just fade away like what happened to a demented energy ball, in one of the Star Trek episodes*, that was growing stronger and stronger the more there was calamity in the air (between the Enterprise crew and the Kingons).

* Note: The Star Trek episode I referred to is called "Day of the Dove" from Star Trek: The Original Series (Season 3, Episode 7).

 

[TomL]

The love of Christ controls us (2 Corinthians 5:14) Christians “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29).

And in context notes what God requires of them

John 6:27–29 (NASB95) — 27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Jesus already told them to work for the food which endures for eternal life

Your interpretation of verse 29 cannot contradict what Jesus already told them

You are ignoring context
'
And even Calvin from whom your doctrine is named, disagrees with your claim

John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

Greetings Fran,

You do not need to make up anything, what one needs to do is to reconcile scriptures with each other, it is just that simple.

Fran, trust me, I'm not following Reformed theology, even if some of them believe in portions of what I and other see, and believe, and teach. As a matter of truth, I understood this sense many years ago, when considering whom Jesus was talking to, and what he was revealing to him and us, who believe the scriptures. It is not that communicated ~ I'm a pretty simple person, with no education to speak of. Of course, neither did the apostles, afterall, they were fishermen, tent makers, very down to earth simple folks we all meant in our everyday life of living ~ very seldom do I come into contact with famous people, highly educated, (with an exception to my children and grandchildren who have done well in the institutions of higher learning) comparison to many we are in a spiritual warfare with.

Fran, without question you are a very sincere believer, one that fears God it seems to me, yet, you are not dealing with a young believer that has not many times over addressed such scriptures as this one. This scripture is very simple to make it flow with all other scriptures, no problem whatsoever.

John was a apostle to the Jews (per Galatians 2:9) is writing to them and reminding them that Jesus was not only the propitiation for them (Jews~and not all Jews, but the children of God's promises among them! Romans 9:7,8 ~ but also for the world, meaning Gentiles, and not all of them, but only for the children of God's promises (among them) through Christ, their surety.

So you agree that Jesus died for ALL of humanity?
You believe in an UNLIMITED ATONEMENT?
Good !

"(there are many more verses regarding this, this thread is about free will)"~Fran I know them all, and some you may have never considered, but I have over the years.

I've probably considered them all.

Adam had a free will to chose to do spiritual acts pleasing to God, but he sinned and became in bondage to Satan and sin. Man, is no longer free to do spiritual acts pleasing to God, and neither does he even desire to do so! His flesh is at enmity against God, not just an enemy, which is bad enough, but he's at constant war against God. And, we might add, even after one is born again, this warfare is far from being over, actually it just truly begin, which we can win this fight through the new man within us.

Agreed.
So?
What are you saying here?
Every Christian believes in what you've stated above.

It's what you HAVE NOT said that separates what you believe from maiinline Christianity.

Answer this RB:
HOW does a person get saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe we should do what He does to us. With nobody to respond to his heresies and rants, he might just fade away like what happened to a demented energy ball, in one of the Star Trek episodes*, that was growing stronger and stronger the more there was calamity in the air (between the Enterprise crew and the Kingons).

* Note: The Star Trek episode I referred to is called "Day of the Dove" from Star Trek: The Original Series (Season 3, Episode 7).

Wow. A REAL Star Trek fan!
Saw them all.
Much better than this pseudo science fiction of today that is really
just an action movie with weird looking beings. (most anyway - they can't all be bad!).

 

[ProDeo]

Do you see any mention of Gentiles?

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
Acts 10:45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
Acts 10:46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
Acts 10:47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

Acts 10, same chapter -

Acts 10:13 And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”
Acts 10:14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.”
Acts 10:15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.”

So @jeremiah1five, kill and eat.

 

[GodsGrace]

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
Acts 10:45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
Acts 10:46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
Acts 10:47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

Acts 10, same chapter -

Acts 10:13 And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”
Acts 10:14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.”
Acts 10:15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.”

So @jeremiah1five, kill and eat.

I do believe this is the oddest idea I've heard on these forums in all these years!
Maybe J is a Jewish troll?
And he wants God all to himself.

 

[ProDeo]

I do believe this is the oddest idea I've heard on these forums in all these years!

Indeed..........

And he wants God all to himself.

Wow, I had the same text in mind myself!

 

[synergy]

Wow. A REAL Star Trek fan!
Saw them all.
Much better than this pseudo science fiction of today that is really
just an action movie with weird looking beings. (most anyway - they can't all be bad!).

Yaaaaa!!!!! You're a Trekkie!
What were your favorite episodes?
Mine were the "Dooms Day Machine" (Season 2 Episide 6) and the "Balance of Terror" (Season 1 Episode 14).They had me spell bound when I first saw them and I will rewatch them on occasion. We were born centuries too early.
We had local Trekkie gathering long time ago when I lived in Montreal. They were fun. Nothing elaborate like the Conventions in Los Vegas which I never went to.

 

[Red Baker]

@civis

Barnes the Calvinist Theologian agrees below- faith is mans responsibility.

Greetings civic, have you, and I know you have, heard of a "Rino"?

Republican In Name Only or "RINO" is a word for people who are in the Republican Party of the United States but believe things and want to pass laws that are different from most Republicans.

Well, that is what men Like Albert Barnes is to the Calvinist community of believers! I had his whole set of Bible commentaries and gave them all away, reading behind him was like listening to these Rino Republican's, they make you sick (and you truly begin to strongly dislike them) listening to them trying to "straddle the fence"!

 

[Red Baker]

So @jeremiah1five, kill and eat.

Pass the BLT to me, I'll eat it. I also love a meat lover pizza, any leftover send it my.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes. Both Ezekial and Joel Promised in their prophecies to the children of Israel that God's Spirit is Promised to the children of Israel:

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

The above is referring to being born again by the Spirit "sanctified IN YOU" - verse 23.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

The above is end time prophecy of God gathering all of Abraham's seed, including mixed heritage Hebrews of Gentile birth during the Diaspora back into the Land of their fathers (Abe, Isaac, and Jacob.)

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. <--- this is called, "sanctification."
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:22–28.

This new birth by the Spirit of God is promised to the children of Israel (verse 22.)

27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the LORD your God, and none else:
And my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward,
That I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids
In those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth,
Blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
Before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:
For in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance,
As the LORD hath said,
And in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joel 2:27–32.

God's Spirit is Promised to Israel, NOT Gentiles. There is NO SCRIPTURE that says God promised His Spirit to Gentiles - unless one was a mixed heritage Hebrew-Gentile for such person is still the seed of Abraham no matter the dilution of Abraham's DNA in their veins. The LORD knows them that are His.

There is a "book" of life of the lamb that contains the names of all the LORD's elect and chosen people, a people chosen from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world.
God was busy in the heavenly Tabernacle before He created heaven, earth, and man.
He did in eternity, in Himself, that which in the process of time He was to do in time.
That is, to save a people through covenant and this people are Abraham and his seed.
A people identified as the children of Israel (Jacob.)

Its always been about the nations, all people, not just one ethnicity,

Ps 2:8-9

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Zech 9:10

10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
Ps 72:8
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
Dan 7:14

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

 

[Red Baker]

@GodsGrace

So you agree that Jesus died for ALL of humanity?
You believe in an UNLIMITED ATONEMENT?
Good !

Fran, where did you get that ideal from? Not me. You do not follow very well what I write, I see.

All in the sense of all without distinction, not all without exception! Jews and Gentiles and that from every kindred, tongue, and nation. Yet, among both Jews and Gentiles, God has an elect people, children of his promises in Christ.

Adam had a free will to chose to do spiritual acts pleasing to God, but he sinned and became in bondage to Satan and sin. Man, is no longer free to do spiritual acts pleasing to God, and neither does he even desire to do so! His flesh is at enmity against God, not just an enemy, which is bad enough, but he's at constant war against God. And, we might add, even after one is born again, this warfare is far from being over, actually it just truly begin, which we can win this fight through the new man within us.

You said this to my words quoted above:

Agreed.
So?
What are you saying here?
Every Christian believes in what you've stated above.

Fran look again, and tell me if you and every one who agrees with you believes in what I said above? I highlighted some of it to help you see exactly what I'm saying, so you would not misunderstand my words. So, do you believe man is in bondage to sin before God saves him? Do you believe his flesh ~ which is all an unregenerate person has before one is born of God's Spirit, is at enmity against God? He (one that is in the flesh) is not subject to the God, "neither indeed can be," per Romans 8:4-9. So, are you telling me that you believe this as well? And others here: @Jim; @civic; @MTMattie; @synergy; @ ProDeo; @TomL etc. believes the same? I do not think so.

Answer this RB:
HOW does a person get saved?

Man in the flesh, is at enmity against God, in bondage to sin and his master, the devil himself. He loves darkness rather than light, because his deeds are evil, every imagination of his heart is evil continually, when measured/compared against the good, holy, and spiritual law of God.

Very briefly~ The only hope for a sinner is for God to show mercy to him and set him free from the bondage of sin and the devil. God by his Spirit comes to the sinner sometimes after conception and before the death of the body and quickens him to life by his almighty power solely based upon the fact if that person is a child of God's promises of grace to Christ in the everlasting covenant of grace before the world begun, before any had done any good or evil, solely based upon the good pleasure and will of God, that God purposed in Himself. 2nd Timothy 1:9,10; Ephesians 1:4-11; John 3:1-8; etc.

 

[Red Baker]

God's first recorded words after Adam and Eve were rejected from the Garden says you are wrong about all of that. God's words to Cain are a clear refutation of that false doctrine.

Wrong, just a you were the last time you try to use Cain's words to support "your golden calf doctrine of free will". God's words to Cain who was of the Wicked One, actually were spoken to him to prove that his will was against God and doing that which is right and God's words to him prove just that very point!

Genesis 4:7​

“If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.”

Jim, that's the point, Cain did not have it IN HIM to do well! God was not under obligation to cause him to do well. When left to himself, he hated his brother for no other reason other than his heart was not toward God as his brother's was ~Abel owed all of his faith and obedience to the grace of God causing him to be obedience ~ or else, he too would have been just like his brother Cain.