An Article on free will

Correct.

And let me add that when the NT speaks of predestination it is ALWAYS in
reference to
HOW (METHOD) or
PURPOSE.

Never is it aimed at individuals.
Correct @GodsGrace

Predestinate -- That those saved must be conforming to the image of Christ. Eph_1:4-5, 2Th_2:13-14 God chose "the means" of our salvation, and what kind of character the saved must possess, before the foundation of the world. God predetermined what type of men would be saved, not who individually would be saved.

[Read carefully all those passages about predestination and you'll note that it is the how, the method, the who would do the saving, and not that one individual is selected indiscriminately to be saved and another rejected. God calls all men by the Gospel Mar_16:15, 2Th_2:14; Rev_22:17, those who obey and conform to the image of His Son will be saved.]

J.
 
You can not call yourself a loving God. Who created mankind to show his angelic beings his true loving self. Then have that same God HATE the majority of the creation he made here on earth. who never met him as the angels did. and not give them a chance to repent.

It just does not work out to be the loving God he claims to be and defeats his purpose
@Eternally-Grateful

I'm sorry, but your manner of forming your thoughts is not that clear to me, so, if I misunderstand you, then I'm sorry.

"Who created mankind to show his angelic beings his true loving self." First, those angels who were elected and never left their first estate, do not need to be shown any of God's infinite attributes, they perfectly understand as much as they possible can grasp God's love, which truly is unsearchable.

Job 5:9​

“Which doeth great things and unsearchable; marvellous things without number:”

Psalms 145:3​

“Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.”

Romans 11:33​

“O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!”

Ephesians 3:8​

“Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;”

The one that sinned he cast them down to hell, and left them in total darkness.

2nd Peter 2:4

"For if God spared not the angles that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto the judgement."

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned"~By whom are meant the devil and his angels; who are spirits created by God and as such were good; their first estate which they left was pure and holy, as well as high and honourable; they, were at first in the truth, though they abode not in it; they were once among the morning stars and sons of God, and were angels of light; their numbers are many, and therefore are here expressed in the plural number, "angels", though it cannot be said how large, a number that cannot be counted.

"God spared not"~ Notwithstanding the dignity and excellency of their nature, in strict justice, and awful severity, without any mercy, inflicted due punishment on them; wherefore it cannot be thought that false teachers, who, as they, abide not in the truth, but deny and oppose it, should escape the vengeance of God, for they will not.

"but cast them down to hell"~In what sense are we to understand the word hell as used by Peter? It cannot be understood as the lake of fire, for that is after the judgment~for which they are reserved for...which is to come, as is evident by even the angles themselves:

Matthew 8:29

"And behold they cried out saying, What have we to do with thee Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"

They know that there is a day appointed for them to be judge and then cast into the lake of fire, or into the deep, as used by Mark and Luke.

Also, the world is full of evil spirits as is evident by many scriptures in the NT, and in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Hell in this scripture is explain to us by Peter as he said these words:

"and delivered them into chains of darkness"~When they left their first estate, by sinning, God Almighty delivered them into chains of darkness~which means their sins left them under the guilt of sin, which is the power of darkness, and in black despair; shutting them up in unbelief, impenitence, and hardness of mind; being holden with the cords of their sins, and in the most dreadful state of bondage and captivity to their lusts, in just judgment on them; and in the most miserable and uncomfortable condition, being driven from the realms of light, deprived of the face and presence of God, in the utmost horror and trembling, and fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery indignation to consume them; and in utter darkness, without the least glimmering of light, joy, peace, and comfort; and where there is nothing but weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and being also under the restraints of the power and providence of God, and not able to stir or move, or do anything without divine permission; and being likewise, by the everlasting, unalterable, and inscrutable purposes and decrees of God, appointed to everlasting wrath and destruction; by which they are consigned and bound over to it, and held fast, that they cannot escape it! They are there~

"to be reserved unto judgment"~And judge they shall be! By Jesus Christ and his saints. This is the prison of hell in which they are now suffering under, there waiting for that great day of the wrath of Almighty God. This hell, they will never escape from, they are forever under this chains of darkness and deception in which they are now living under. Their final abode will be destruction in the lake of fire and brimstone.
and not give them a chance to repent.

It just does not work out to be the loving God he claims to be and defeats his purpose
God never gave the angels that sinned a second chance, did he? Besides, what do you mean by a second chance? Unless God gives a person another heart, their old Adamic heart would never be convinced though their loved ones could come back from the dead and warn them.

Luke 16:30,31​

“And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”

Isaiah 44:20​

“He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?”

Read Isaiah 44:9-20!
 
The main reason that men say almost nothing about the angels that sinned is because God has told us almost nothing about the angels that sinned. I don't think God has told us anything about whether or not salvation was/is offered to the angels that sinned.
Jim you should know better than that.

2nd Peter 2:4

"For if God spared not the angles that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto the judgement."

Jim, God did not spared them that sinned! No second chance no provision made for them.
 
What is there to cover RB?
@GodsGrace
I have my thoughts in place, I just have not organized it all together, and besides, truly thinking just how much I want to say. Still contemplating, plus I want to make sure I do this with a sincere, godly spirit, yet be a firm as I must be.

I want to offer an apology, for saying that I'm finish posting to you, that was not kind~when I think I should stop, then I will do so, without saying anything, that was not needed..... secondly, for calling you the prophetess from Italy, that was uncalled for. That probably cost me a chance to share a cup of cappuccino. In all sincerity, I'm sorry.
 
@Eternally-Grateful

I'm sorry, but your manner of forming your thoughts is not that clear to me, so, if I misunderstand you, then I'm sorry.
Not sure why it is so hard.

You can not call yourself a loving God. Who created mankind to show his angelic beings his true loving self. Then have that same God HATE the majority of the creation he made here on earth. who never met him as the angels did. and not give them a chance to repent.

It just does not work out to be the loving God he claims to be and defeats his purpose
God never gave the angels that sinned a second chance, did he?
Unlike humans Angels saw God as he is (if we saw him we would die) hence they were held to a higher standard than we are.
 
Not sure why it is so hard.

You can not call yourself a loving God. Who created mankind to show his angelic beings his true loving self. Then have that same God HATE the majority of the creation he made here on earth. who never met him as the angels did. and not give them a chance to repent.

It just does not work out to be the loving God he claims to be and defeats his purpose

Unlike humans Angels saw God as he is (if we saw him we would die) hence they were held to a higher standard than we are.
And only man not angels were created in the image and likeness of God which makes man redeemable
 
Unlike humans Angels saw God as he is (if we saw him we would die) hence they were held to a higher standard than we are.
@Eternally-Grateful @ civic

That's terribly wrong! No man or angels have ever seen God, never and never will, except in the person of Jesus Christ! As a matter of fact, when Word which was God was made flesh in the the person of Jesus Christ, angles saw God for the first time!

1st Timothy 3:16​

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

I understand that to mean for the first time! Becaus eof such scriptures as this one:

1st Timothy 6:15​

“Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”

God is a Spirit, always has been, always will be. God has made Himself known to the elect angels and communicates with them in ways hidden from us, since we have never been part of that Spirit world.
And only man not angels were created in the image and likeness of God which makes man redeemable
civic, of course they too were created in God's image, in the sense in which we were. They have spiritual wisdom, knowledge and understanding, and power, and true holiness, though we have the very righteousness God freely given to us through Jesus Christ.
 
I do think that God, in His foreknowledge, knows who, individually, will love Him and responds accordingly with predestination.
@Jim

At least you said..."I do think"...................... for you certainly cannot prove the same.

“Except a man be born-again he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3). But you think he can, and even take it much farther by saying that he can even love God in his flesh! Totally against God's testimony from Romans 7:18.

The most fearful and fatal delusion now so prevalent in most sections of so-called “evangelical” Christendom is that a saving belief in Christ lies within the power of the natural man, that by performing what is naively termed “a simple act of faith,” he becomes a new creature. That is to make the sinner the beginner of his own salvation!

He takes “the first step,” and God does the rest; He believes, and then God renews him—which is a blatant denial of the imperative necessity of the work of the Holy Spirit. The fact is, if there is one time more than another when a man is absolutely dependent upon the Spirit’s power, it is at the beginning for the most formidable difficulty lies there.

To savingly believe in Christ is a supernatural act and is the direct product of a supernatural work of grace in the soul. Fallen and depraved man has no more power to come to Christ evangelically than he has merit of his own to entitle him to God’s favour. He is as completely dependent on the Spirit’s gracious operation within him as he is upon Christ’s worthiness without him. Fallen man is spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1), and a dead soul cannot “co-operate,” any more than a physical corpse can with an undertaker. Mock this if you will, but it is still God's truth.

1st Corinthians 2:14
“The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”.

The “things Of the Spirit” signify contents of the Word of Truth, for they were penned under His immediate inspiration. The “natural man” is man in his fallen and unrenewed state while the sinner remains unregenerate, he “receiveth not” either the Divine Law or the Gospel. That requires a word of explication: the natural man can, and often does, receive the things of the Spirit in the letter of them as so many propositions or statements, but he cannot apprehend them as does one who has been made the subject of a miracle of grace. They are “foolishness”—absurd, unattractive, distasteful to him. Yea, he "cannot know them“— he is disqualified to perceive their verity and value; “because they are spiritually discerned,” and spiritual discernment he has none. The sinner has to be transformed from a natural into a spiritual man before he has any spiritual perception.

“Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3). Only in God’s light can we see light (Ps. 3 6:9), and in order to do that, we must be brought out of that darkness in which sin has enveloped the soul.

The natural man, by reading and hearing, is competent to receive the things of God in their grammatical sense and to acquire an accurate mental notion of them, but is quite incapable of receiving a spiritual image of them in his understanding, of taking them into his affections, of cordially accepting them with his will. They are neither discerned by him in their Divine majesty and glory, delighted in by him, nor obeyed. The things of the Spirit are not only addressed to the intellect as true, but to the conscience as obligatory, to the affections as good and lovely, to the will to be yielded unto.

The unregenerate are entirely unable to recognize by an inward experience their surpassing weight and worth. They may indeed receive the Truth of God into their brains, but they never receive “the LOVE of the Truth” (2 Thess. 2:10) in their affections. The natural man is insensible alike to the authority and the excellence of the things of the Spirit of God, because his whole inward state is antagonistic to them. There must be congeniality between the perceiver and the thing perceived: only the pure in heart can see God. We not only need the Spirit objectively to reveal unto us the things of God, but He must make us subjectively spiritual men before we can receive them into our hearts.

As the eye is fashioned to take in sights, and the ear, sounds—as the faculties of the mind are fitted to think, reason, and retain concepts, so God must make the heart of fallen man SUITABLE UNTO spiritual things ere he can receive them. There must be a correspondence between the object apprehended and the subject apprehending, as there is between the qualities of matter and the senses of the body which cognize them. As I cannot truly appreciate in oratorio—no matter how acute my hearing—unless I have a musical ear and refined taste, neither can I delight in spiritual things until I be made spiritually.

Between God and fallen man there is no living relation, no agreement. The “beauty of holiness” cannot be perceived by one who is in love with and blinded by sin. There is no harmony between the sinner’s spirit and the Holy Spirit. No matter how simply and clearly the things of God be set before the natural man, nor how logically and accurately he may reason about them, he cannot receive them in their actuality and spirituality, for he has no spiritual sight to discern their wisdom and goodness, no taste to relish their loveliness and sweetness, no capacity to take in their desirability and glory.

“The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not” (John 1:5). Though “the Light of the world” stood before them, they saw in Him no beauty that they should desire Him. Something more than an external revelation of Him is necessary, even such as that described in: “For God who [in the beginning] commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” (2 Cor. 4:6). The unregenerate have their “understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart” (Eph. 4:18), and they have no more ability or power of their own to dispel the same than had the deep to dissipate the darkness which abode upon it (Gen. 1:2).

In the darkness of a heart which, in its native condition, is a chamber of spiritual death, God shines with a light that is none other than Himself. The One who is light irradiates the benighted soul, and in His light it now sees the fullness of truth and grace shining in the face of Jesus Christ. By sovereign fiat and miraculous power the soul is now enabled to discern the glory of the Divine perfections manifested in and through the Redeemer.

For several generations past there has been a woeful ignoring of what has been pointed out above. There has been little recognition of the fact, and still less acknowledgment of it, that all which the Father has purposed and contrived, all that the Son has done and suffered for the redemption of His people, is unavailable and ineffective to their souls until the HOLY SPIRIT APPLIES the same. The inestimable blessings of the Father’s love, through the Son’s mediation, are only brought home to the souls of the elect by the testimony, power and operations of the Spirit. But during the last century, the majority of “evangelists” displayed a zeal which was not according to knowledge.

In their efforts to show the simplicity of “the way of salvation,” they ignored the difficulties of salvation (Luke 18:24; 1 Pet. 4:18); and in their pressing the responsibility of men to believe, repudiated the fact that none can do so savingly until the Spirit imparts faith. One of His titles is “the Spirit of faith” (2 Cor. 4:13), because He is the Author and Communicator of it. Faith is “the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8): not offered for man's acceptance, but actually bestowed: “the faith of the operation [not of man’s will, but] of God” (Col. 2: 12)—”who by him do believe in God” (1 Pet. 1:21).

The work of the Spirit in the heart is as indispensable as was the work of Christ on the Cross. The necessity for the Spirit’s inward and effective operations are from the darkness, depravity and spiritual emptiness of fallen human nature. He alone can discover to us our dire need of Christ, convict us of our lost and ruined condition, create within us a hatred and horror of sin, bring us to consent to Christ’s sceptre, and make us willing in the day of His power to take Christ’s yoke upon us. By nature we are totally averse to holiness, and from birth have been accustomed to doing evil only.

It is impossible for us to take into the arms of our affection a holy Christ until the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus first takes hold of us. Moreover, there is a transcendency in spiritual things which far exceeds the highest flight of natural reason. Nature stands in need of grace in order for the heart to be rightly disposed to receive the things of God, and no human culture or education can effect that. A Gospel which comes to us from Heaven can only be savingly known by an inward revelation from Heaven. The Gospel is a revelation of Divine grace, such as had never entered the heart of man to conceive, still less is it capable of comprehending it—their Author must apply it to the heart.
 
@Eternally-Grateful @ civic

That's terribly wrong! No man or angels have ever seen God, never and never will, except in the person of Jesus Christ! As a matter of fact, when Word which was God was made flesh in the the person of Jesus Christ, angles saw God for the first time!

1st Timothy 3:16​

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

I understand that to mean for the first time! Becaus eof such scriptures as this one:

1st Timothy 6:15​

“Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”

God is a Spirit, always has been, always will be. God has made Himself known to the elect angels and communicates with them in ways hidden from us, since we have never been part of that Spirit world.

civic, of course they too were created in God's image, in the sense in which we were. They have spiritual wisdom, knowledge and understanding, and power, and true holiness, though we have the very righteousness God freely given to us through Jesus Christ.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say angels were made in Gods image and likeness
 
The Lord God Almighty conveys that free-willians exchanged the truth of God for a lie

No. That would be you.
, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen (Romans 1:25) through the Apostle Paul about people worshipping themselves with their self-ascribed free-will power rather than the Grand Creator with His awesome will power; therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false (2 Thessalonians 2:11).

As He did you.

Free-willian Philosophers are your "modern day preachers/teachers that blaspheme God".

IOW, to you when we pray to and praise and sing to and worship God... we are blaspheming God?

All because we came to have faith and then we had the new birth?

You “ puff yourself up in speech,” and you know pride is condemned in Scripture. Proverbs tells us that.. The Bible never condones braggadocio.

For all your talk I wonder who it is that you are trying to convince.... us, or the Lord Himself?

 
You are correct, and really it does not need to be said to them, they already know this, and they certainly know why they even have a being per Hebrews 1 ~ besides, the scriptures were not written to them.
And they are not redeemable , man is for the very reason of being made in the image and likeness of God. This is really simple to understand and really not up for debate. It’s a black/ white issue.
 
or they just do not believe, and cover their ears and close their eyes so they do not see and hear, and be healed.

Acts 28:27 — 27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.” ’
And thus are not his sheep
 
You are avoiding @Red Baker's point, which is that you wrote "You hold men not yet saved or regenerated are his sheep" (post #7,181) to wit he replied "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)” (Ephesians 2:4,5).

@TomL, do maintain context of the conversation. Of course, your error is exposed by context.
Not at all

continue reading from the passage

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Regeneration, salvation does not happen without faith
 
I will answer it for @TomL

(Eph. 2:1, 5) Does this verse support the Calvinist doctrine of total inability?
CLAIM: Paul writes, “You were dead in your trespasses and sins… even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” (Eph. 2:1, 5). Calvinists sometimes argue that our human condition is “dead” in the sense of having a total inability to respond to God. Like Lazarus in the cave (Jn. 11), we needed God to impart spiritual life and call us from this corpse-like, dead state. Calvinists often argue, “Is a dead person able to respond to God or make himself alive? No! Therefore, God had to give us spiritual life before we could believe and respond to him.” John Calvin stated that this is “a real and present death.”[1] Wood states that this expression for death is not “merely figurative… The most vital part of man’s personality—the spirit—is dead to the most important factor in life—God.”[2] Is this the case?

RESPONSE: This cannot refer to corpse-like death or total inability. Instead, this refers to alienation and separation from God. There are a number of reasons for holding this view:

First, the IMMEDIATE CONTEXT demonstrates that Paul is thinking of death in terms of SEPARATION. In the subsequent verses, Paul describes these “dead” believers as being separated or alienated from God: “Remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ” (Eph. 2:12-13). Later, Paul writes, “[The Gentiles were] being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart” (Eph. 4:18). All of these terms describe separation—not corpse-like death.

Second, the GREATER CONTEXT of the NT uses the term “dead” for people who can still do certain things. For instance, Jesus told a man to “allow the dead to bury their dead” (Mt. 8:22; cf. Lk. 9:60). If “death” means total inability, then how can they do anything (including burying physically dead people)? Paul spoke of widows who were “dead even while [they] live” (1 Tim. 5:6). Jesus used the term “dead” to refer to the believers at Sardis (Rev. 3:1).

Third, the GREATER CONTEXT of the NT uses the term dead to refer to SEPARATION. In the parable of the prodigal son, the father says, “This son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found” (Lk. 15:24). A number of observations can be made regarding this passage: (1) This is a soteriological passage; (2) the father in the parable uses the term “dead” in a metaphorical sense—not a literal sense; and (3) the father parallels being “dead” with being “lost” or separated from himself.

Fourth, even some Reformed authors agree that being “dead” refers to SEPARATION. For instance, F.F. Bruce understands the term death to refer to the sinner being “severed and alienated from God, the source of true life.”[3]

Finally, are we really to believe that non-Christians are so corpse-like dead that they cannot respond to God’s own call in the gospel? After all, the gospel is “the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes” (Rom. 1:16). Are people so dead that they cannot even respond to “the power of God” himself? Humans do not seek God on their own (Rom. 3:11), but can they seek a God who is presently calling and seeking after them? Adam and Eve could hear God’s words in the Garden (Gen. 3:9) and responded to him (Gen. 3:10). How much more should non-Christians respond to God’s call through the gospel message?

For more on this subject, see our earlier article, “Calvinism and Arminianism.”

[1] John Calvin, Ephesians 2:1 (in location).

[2] Wood, A. S. (1981). Ephesians. In F. E. Gaebelein (Ed.), The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Ephesians through Philemon (Vol. 11, p. 33). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House.

[3] Emphasis mine. Bruce, F. F. (1984). The Epistles to the Colossians, to Philemon, and to the Ephesians (p. 280). Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.


J.
The context does not support him

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

there is no life prior to faith

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
 
um no this is not true
God made no covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. None.

The Abraham Covenant (Gen. 17:7) is between God, Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13) and his Hebrew seed.
The Mosaic Covenant is between God and the children of Israel (Abraham's seed - Exodus 19:5-6.)
The New Covenant is between God and the House of Israel (ten northern kingdom tribes), and the House of Judah (two southern kingdom tribes - Jeremiah 31:31-34.)

That's it. And as Scripture reveals, God saves through covenant to save.
Yet God made no covenant to save with non-Hebrew Gentiles.
Under the Law the high priest prayed and offered sacrifices to atone yearly for the sin of the children of Israel.
Christ, as High Priest, prays for the children of Israel in covenant and offered Himself as sacrifice to atone finally and eternally for the sins of the children of Israel. And Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Covenant, meaning that as the Law mandated sacrifice for the sins of the children of Israel, so, too, did Jesus Christ, as High Priest, atoned for the sins of the children of Israel.
Besides this, Joel prophesied the Spirit of God is Promised by God to Israel. And on the day of the Jewish Feast of Harvest three thousand Jews were born-again by the Spirit who was Promised to Israel.
There is no Scripture nor prophesy in the Old Testament of God promising His Spirit to those uncircumcised, non-covenant, non-Hebrew Gentiles.
None.

Jesus fulfilled the Law; He didn't change it. Under the Law the high priest sacrificed to atone the sins of the children of Israel. Jesus Christ, as High Priest, sacrificed Himself for the sins of the children of Israel.
That's about it.
 
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