An Article on free will

Ephesians 2:8​

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Civic, in Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.

When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.
@Red Baker
The Claim of Metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 (Faith of Christ)
The claim here is that "faith" in Ephesians 2:8 refers to Christ’s faith, not the faith of the believer, and that this faith is a legal requirement for salvation, met by Christ’s perfect obedience to God’s

A. Greek Grammar and Syntax
Ephesians 2:8 (διὰ πίστεως) – The phrase διὰ πίστεως ("through faith") follows the genitive of means, which means faith is the means by which we receive salvation.

The genitive of means structure used here does not point to Christ’s personal faith but to the believer's faith as the instrument through which salvation comes.

B. A.T. Robertson’s Analysis (Word Pictures in the New Testament)
Robertson firmly argues that faith in Christ is a human act: "Faith is the means through which salvation is appropriated, not the righteousness of Christ being transferred to us." This aligns with Romans 3:28 and Galatians 2:16, where faith in Christ is distinguished from the works of the law.


Faith in Ephesians 2:8 is a personal, active trust in Christ, not a legal or forensic faith belonging to Christ alone.

If faith in Christ were meant to refer to Christ’s faith alone, then salvation would be imputed to people based on Christ’s obedience, but this is not the teaching of the text. Salvation is by grace through personal faith in the work of Christ, not solely by His faith.

2. The Gift of Faith and Salvation
The assertion here is that faith is the gift of God given in regeneration. It is said to be impossible for the “old man” (the unregenerate) to believe, and this faith is given only to those already chosen by God. Let’s address this claim from both a grammatical and biblical standpoint.

A. The Syntax of Ephesians 2:8
"It is the gift of God" (τοῦτο θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον) – The word "τοῦτο" is a neuter pronoun, which refers to the entire process of salvation, including grace and faith, not just faith. In fact, the gift is salvation itself, not faith as a separate entity.

B. Henry Alford’s Exegesis (The Greek Testament)
Alford highlights that the construction of the passage demonstrates that the entire process of salvation is a gift, not faith alone. Alford clarifies that faith is the human response to the grace of God: “Faith is the means through which salvation is received, but salvation itself is the gift.” (Vol. 3, p. 77).

C. J.H. Moulton & Nigel Turner (A Grammar of New Testament Greek)
They argue that faith in this context refers to human trust, and God’s gift is not faith itself, but salvation, with faith being the means by which one appropriates that salvation.

D. Scriptural Evidence
Romans 10:17 – "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

Faith comes from hearing the message, and hearing is an active process by which the sinner responds to the gospel. This contradicts the idea that faith is only given in regeneration, as it shows faith can develop through the proclamation of the Word.


3. The Concept of Regeneration and the "Old Man"
The argument asserts that faith is given in regeneration and that it is impossible for the old man (unregenerate) to believe. The claim is that when a person believes, it is not the old man but the new man who believes. While there is some truth to the idea that regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit, this claim has several exegetical issues.

A. Regeneration and Faith
Regeneration is not the cause of faith; rather, faith is the means by which a person enters into new life. The Bible teaches that faith precedes regeneration, not the other way around.

John 1:12 – "To all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God."

This clear sequence indicates that faith comes before the new birth, which contradicts the idea that faith is only possible after regeneration.


B. A.T. Robertson’s Exegesis
Robertson, in his work A Grammar of the Greek New Testament, clearly states that faith is the human response to God’s grace. He asserts that faith precedes the new birth, meaning a person must believe before they can be born again.

C. John Wesley’s Commentary
Wesley also affirms that faith is a prerequisite for regeneration: “The new birth is a result of the faith exercised in Christ, not the cause of it.” Wesley argues that faith is not the product of regeneration, but rather the response to God’s grace in regeneration.

4. The Example of John the Baptist and the Thief on the Cross
The examples of John the Baptist and the thief on the cross are used to support the idea that faith is a post-conception reality given to the elect through regeneration. However, these examples do not support the idea that faith is only given after regeneration, but rather show how faith can be exercised in response to God’s revelation.

A. John the Baptist
Luke 1:15 states that John was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb, but this does not mean he had faith before birth. It refers to God’s divine calling and preparation for his prophetic ministry. Faith still requires a personal response to the gospel message, as seen in his later baptism of repentance.

B. The Thief on the Cross
Luke 23:42-43 – The thief’s faith in Christ is a personal response to Jesus' identity, not the result of regeneration. This incident demonstrates faith as a genuine response in a moment of personal conviction, not a forced or irresistible act of regeneration.

Faith in Ephesians 2:8 is the human response to God’s grace, not the legal faith of Christ transferred to the believer. The Greek syntax supports this interpretation.

Faith is the means of salvation, not the product of regeneration. Ephesians 2:8 refers to salvation as a gift, with faith as the instrument.

Regeneration is not a prerequisite for faith. Faith is a response to God’s call and precedes the new birth.

Examples like John the Baptist and the thief on the cross demonstrate faith as a personal act of trust, not a divine imposition through regeneration.

This understanding of Ephesians 2:8 aligns with the broader biblical testimony that salvation is by grace through faith and that faith is the means through which one is saved, rather than something given only post-regeneration.

It seems like your understanding of the ordo salutis (order of salvation) is reversed. In traditional biblical theology, the sequence of salvation events is important, and when we look at Scripture, it becomes clear that the order is not what you're suggesting. Let's take a closer look at the typical biblical order of salvation:

Calling – The Holy Spirit calls a person to faith (Matthew 22:14; Romans 8:30).

Faith – The person responds to the call by exercising faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Regeneration – As a result of faith, the individual is regenerated (born again) by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-8).

Justification – Upon faith in Christ, the believer is justified, declared righteous before God (Romans 5:1).

Sanctification – After justification, the believer begins a lifelong process of being conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29).

Glorification – Finally, the believer will be glorified, receiving a perfected body and living forever in the presence of God (Romans 8:30).

The typical order does not have faith as a byproduct of regeneration; rather, faith precedes regeneration, with faith being the means by which the Holy Spirit regenerates the believer. In contrast to the view you've presented, the Scriptures teach that faith is not something imparted after regeneration but is itself an essential response to the gospel call, which the Spirit enables.

To summarize, the order of salvation is: calling → faith → regeneration → justification → sanctification → glorification. The order you’ve described, where regeneration comes first and faith follows, is not aligned with what Scripture teaches. Faith is the necessary response that occurs as part of the calling and precedes regeneration.

J.
 
Agreed.
The Holy Spirit was sent to be our helper.
Jesus Himself said we are to abide in Him.

You read into verses what is not there.

The Lord God Almighty lovingly causes God's chosen persons to will according to God's Way (John 14:6), and God lovingly causes God's chosen persons to work joyfully according to God's Way:

12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure
(Philippians 2:12-13)

Paul expresses that obeyed is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Paul expresses that work out your salvation is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to marvelously and beautifully write, there, about the exclusive Sovereignty of God!

Lord Jesus Christ teaches that us Christians are governed by our Father's will just like Him with "not as I will, but as You will" (Matthew 26:39), and so says the Christ, our Christian's Example (John 13:15).

According to your writing, you hold to the free-will of man separating yourself from the Will of God:
the free-will of man The Will of God
it is not God who is at work in you, but you free-will and work for your self-pleasure
(GodsGrace 2:13).
it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure
(Philippians 2:13).

the love of Christ controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14),

Self-will or image of Christ will​

These 16 parts integrally contribute to one full composition. A response to post #6,699.
Part 1 of 16: Illegitimate Isolation
Part 2 of 16: Self-exaltation
Part 3 of 16: Unity Prayer (Acts 4:24)
Part 4 of 16: CHOOSE, ABLE, list
Part 5 of 16: God creates all
Part 6 of 16: Matthew 11 examined
Part 7 of 16: Free-willian NT Conflict
Part 8 of 16: John 3 16/Matthew 11:25
Part 9 of 16: Free-willian Self-savior
Part 10 of 16: Faith, the gift of God
Part 11 of 16: Free-willian are self-willed
Part 12 of 16: The Potter and the clay
Part 13 of 16: the problem here
Part 14 of 16: you confuse Calvin for Christ
Part 15 of 16: Christ controls Christians
Part 16 of 16: Christians hear Christ
 
@Jim

At least you said..."I do think"...................... for you certainly cannot prove the same.

“Except a man be born-again he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3). But you think he can, and even take it much farther by saying that he can even love God in his flesh! Totally against God's testimony from Romans 7:18.
We have been through that so many times. Your interpretation of the word "see" is, quite frankly, against most who study God's word, except those, of course, who like you hold to the false doctrine of Total Depravity. The general meaning there is most certainly the same as that of John 3:5 which is essentially a repeat of John 3:3 for emphasis. Both to "see" and to "enter" the kingdom signifies to partake of the kingdom, to enjoy the enjoy the benefits of being in the kingdom. The word in English is very often used in that sense as well, meaning to comprehend, to evaluate, to measure. In my own case, back in high school, I decided to accept the invitation to go skiing with some friends. I just wanted to see what all the excitement was about. That clearly did not mean I wanted to watch; but rather, I wanted to participate.
1st Corinthians 2:14
“The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”.
Again, you take what is spoken of and about the apostles and prophets who had received divine revelation from the Holy Spirit and think it applies to you. It doesn't. You buy into the false doctrine of illumination which is so easily shown to be false. That entire chapter is Paul's declaration and defense of his own divinely inspired revelation and teaching. Even here again, your adherence to the false doctrine of Augustine's Total Depravity derived from his Gnostic Manicheism has deceived you. The whole Calvinist presentation of Total Depravity and Regeneration is Gnostic to its core.
 
@Red Baker
Why did God make man with a sin nature?
God did not create man with a sinful nature, never said that, and not sure why you would think that to be so.
Red,

It is generally said that Adam was not created with a sin nature but .... how to best say this.... ok, he developed a sin nature once he sinned by disobeying God.

We know that God foreknew (He knows all) that Adam would sin because once Eve ate the fruit and did not die (as they had likely seen animals die) and he either was curious, or wanted to "please" her when she was telling him it was OK.... Then the sin nature came about as part of the judgment when Adam and Eve disobeyed God .. I think that is Gen 3?????? I am not looking it up for chapter confirmation so if I am wrong tell me.....

I do not think that God changed His mind and made an adjustment after the fact to add a sin nature to mankind.... I believe He had it right there on the drawing board when he was laying out His plans.

David even said in Psalms

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me"
And what about Paul

"Paul also spoke of this in Romans 7:18 when he said, “I know nothing good lives in me, that is in my sinful nature.
So you may believe God never created man with a sin nature.... but certainly is observed through out the bible.
IMO... All of mankind and womankind has inherited the sin nature. It’s part of our make up. That’s why we can’t save ourselves and would be hopelessly lost without our Savior, the Lord Jesus.


What was his purpose?

Why make man at all?

God had the angels, why did he need man?

God had gorgeous heavens and stars and planets to enjoy... could it be that we were an experiment?

Why?
Click to expand...
Nora, God had himself which was all he needed to be perfectly contended. Certainly God did not need to experiment, for infinite knowledge He possessed.

Well Red,

You do not know either. I have a hunch but am not going to voice it for you to shoot it down.

Certainly God had Himself and was all he needed to be content. He also had the angels

But have you never wondered why He made the creation as He did? I am referring to the fact that we are about as far from perfect as can be.

I am beyond grateful and thankful that he sent Jesus who shed His blood for us.

I dont care which side of the path you are taking in your beliefs of when and how one gets regenerated, or if the thought of someone having free will and believing in it upsets you.... I am just thankful that we can be and are.
And I worry about those that are so dumb as to not give a care for they have no beliefs.

But just a last comment on the sinful nature we have all inherited I still wonder about What was his purpose? and Why make man at all.
 
And what about Paul

"Paul also spoke of this in Romans 7:18 when he said, “I know nothing good lives in me, that is in my sinful nature.
Let's look at the Greek to see if "sinful nature" is a correct translation. The Greek word is σαρκί. σαρκί translates to flesh (not sinful nature) which is the term overwhelmingly used by all translations except for NIV & NLT.

(Rom 7:18) οἶδα γὰρ ὅτι οὐκ οἰκεῖ ἐν ἐμοί, τοῦτ᾿ ἔστιν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου, ἀγαθόν· τὸ γὰρ θέλειν παράκειταί μοι, τὸ δὲ κατεργάζεσθαι τὸ καλὸν οὐχ εὑρίσκω.

If human nature is sinful then what does that make Jesus who took up the very same human nature we all have?

If you're using the NIV, I noticed how inconsistent it is when it translates σαρκί as "sinful nature" in Rom 7:18 and σὰρξ (has same root as σαρκί) as "flesh" in John 1:14. It dare not ascribe sinful nature to Jesus! That borders on disingenuity on the part of the NIV. I'm wondering if anyone has made a study on how many times the NIV has misled Believers.
 
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@Johann
1) "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ," (ou gar epaischunomai to euangellion) "For I am not ashamed of (blushing because of) the gospel (of Christ)." To Paul the gospel never ceased to be or exist as "good news", for sinners and the saved; of it he was never ashamed, neither should any child of God ever be, because of what it is and does for the lost, 2Ti_1:7-8; Mar_8:38.
Greetings Johann,

While I agree that the gospel is indeed good news, yea, wonderful news, concerning what Jesús Christ as our surety did for us, how he secured the righteousness of God for God's elect, that gives us right to eternal life in the world to come. But, Johann, this same message is foolishness in the ears of those who have not been called to receive this glorious gospel concerning God's Son. This is not my opinion, but God's truthful testimony which I'm doing nothing more than repeating what God has said in his word.

1st Corinthians 1:18​

“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”

We see both the wisdom and power of God in the pure gospel of Jesus Christ, a gospel that exalts him alone as the saviour of God's elect. I agree we should never be ashamed of this gospel, even though this sin works in our members, that is, in our flesh/old man.
2) "For it is the power of God unto salvation", (dunamis gar theou estin eis soterian) "For it is or (exists as) the power of God, with relation to salvation," or deliverance from the power and presence of sin, to the holiness and glory of God, 2Co_4:3-4; 1Co_1:18; 1Co_1:23-24; This gospel is accompanied by the power of the Holy Spirit, 1Th_1:5.
Johann, the salvation under consideration in Romans 1:16 is our practical salvation of growth, knowledge, a true biblical knowledge of Christ's gospel, etc., that which is freely been purchased for us by Jesús being our surety. 1st Timothy 4:13-16; 1st Corinthians 1:21 actually is saying the same truth as Romans 1:16:

1 Corinthians 1:21​

“For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”

The gospel will save us from many false teachings, prophets, pitfalls, etc., even our own deceived hearts, when we walk after flesh which at times we all have been guilty of doing.
3. The Gospel Must Be Preached to Unbelievers, Not Just to the Already Believing
Jesus commanded:
Johann, unbelievers could includes God's elect until they believe, yet we are not called to go after sinners who show no interest in the scriptures, we are not to cast the gospel's pearls before swine's. Have you ever consider such scriptures as

Acts 16:16-18​

“And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.”

Have you ever wonder why did not Paul do this sooner, he ignored her for many days, and finally cast out the spirit, yet nothing is said about her following Paul after he cast out the evil spirit. Do you even consider that very little is said of China in the scriptures and very little good has ever came pout from there, it is almost as though God has left them to the deceitfulness and wickedness of their own hearts...I'm sure there are some of God's children there, but very little good has ever came from there. The same could be said of other countries. We do what Paul and others did in the Acts of the apostles, go where there are seemly worshippers of God and there you will find God's children that most likely need to be saved in a practical sense, for regeneration is God's work and he does not need us, as a matter of truth, he will not use us.
4. "Dead in Sin" Does Not Mean "Incapable of Believing"
Ephesians 2:1:
καὶ ὑμᾶς ὄντας νεκροὺς τοῖς παραπτώμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις.
"And you, being dead in trespasses and sins."
Dealt with this already above.

Ephesians 1:19,20

“And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,”

Johann, follow the flow of the context, and you will see, just how dead sinners are before they can ear, see and believe. Notice carefully, that God's power that raised Christ from the dead (not just a separation from God, but truly Christ died and was buried) God used the "same power" to raised us from being dead in trespasses and sins, the exact same power Johann!
I may come back after I do a couple of things on my "honey to do list" ~ for my bride of almost 60 years.
 
Let's look at the Greek to see if "sinful nature" is a correct translation. The Greek word is σαρκί. σαρκί translates to flesh (not sinful nature) which is the term overwhelmingly used by all translations except for NIV & NLT.

(Rom 7:18) οἶδα γὰρ ὅτι οὐκ οἰκεῖ ἐν ἐμοί, τοῦτ᾿ ἔστιν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου, ἀγαθόν· τὸ γὰρ θέλειν παράκειταί μοι, τὸ δὲ κατεργάζεσθαι τὸ καλὸν οὐχ εὑρίσκω.

If human nature is sinful then what does that make Jesus who took up the very same human nature we all have?

If you're using the NIV, I noticed how inconsistent it is when it translates σαρκί as "sinful nature" in Rom 7:18 and σὰρξ (has same root as σαρκί) as "flesh" in John 1:14. It dare not ascribe sinful nature to Jesus! That borders on disingenuity on the part of the NIV. I'm wondering if anyone has made a study on how many times the NIV has misled Believers.
FLESH (sarx)

Scholars differ on how to characterize the different connotations of this term. There is surely some semantic overlap in meanings. The following is merely an attempt to note the wide semantic field of the term. Remember, words have meaning only in specific contexts. Context determines meaning, not lexicons!

the human body, Luke 24:39; Rom. 2:28; 1 Cor. 5:5; 7:28; 2 Cor. 4:11; 7:5; 12:7; Gal. 2:16,20; 4:13; Phil. 1:22,24; Col. 1:24; 2:5,11; 1 Tim. 3:16; 1 Pet. 4:6

human descent, John 3:6; 8:15; Rom. 1:3; 4:1; 9:3,5,8; 11:14; 1 Cor. 10:18; 2 Cor. 5:16; 11:18; Gal. 4:23,29; Phil. 3:4

the human person, John 1:14; Rom. 3:20; 7:5; 1 Cor. 1:29; 3:1,3; 2 Cor. 10:3; Gal. 2:16; 5:24

humanly speaking, 1 Cor. 1:26; 2 Cor. 1:12; 5:16; 10:2; Gal. 6:12

human weakness, Rom. 6:19; 7:18,25; 8:3-9,12-13; 13:14; 2 Cor. 10:4; Gal. 3:3; 5:13,16,19-21; Col. 2:18

hostility of humans toward God, related to the consequences of the Fall, Matt. 26:41; Mark 14:38; Rom. 7:5,14; 13:14; 1 Cor. 3:1,3;Gal. 5:13,16,17,19,24; 6:9; Eph. 2:3; Phil. 3:3; Col. 2:18; 1 Pet. 2:11; 4:2; 1 John 2:16

"all flesh" meaning all humans, Luke 3:6; John 17:2; Acts 2:17; 1 Pet. 1:24

"flesh and blood" idiom
a human being ‒ Matt. 16:17; Gal. 1:16; Eph. 6:12
a human body ‒ 1 Cor. 15:50; Heb. 2:14

Jesus' true humanity (see SPECIAL TOPIC: Gnosticism) ‒ John 1:14; 6:51-5,63; Acts 2:26,31; Rom. 1:3; 8:3; 9:5; Eph. 2:15; Col. 1:22; 1 Tim. 3:16; Heb. 5:7; 10:20; 1 Pet. 3:18; 4:1; 1 John 4:2; 2 John v. 7

It must be emphasized that "flesh" is not viewed as evil in the NT, as it is in Greek thought.

For the Greek philosophers, "flesh" was the source of human problems; death freed one from its influence.

But in the NT, "flesh" is the battle ground of the spiritual conflict (cf. Eph. 6:10-18), yet is neutral. One can use the physical body for good or evil.

J.
 
The Lord God Almighty lovingly causes God's chosen persons to will according to God's Way (John 14:6), and God lovingly causes God's chosen persons to work joyfully according to God's Way:
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure
Wonderful synergistic verses that merge the fact that we must actively "work out [our] salvation" with "it is God who is at work in you". That totally annihilates calvinist monergism.
Paul expresses that obeyed is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Paul expresses that work out your salvation is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to marvelously and beautifully write, there, about the exclusive Sovereignty of God!

Lord Jesus Christ teaches that us Christians are governed by our Father's will just like Him with "not as I will, but as You will" (Matthew 26:39), and so says the Christ, our Christian's Example (John 13:15).
Matt 26:39 is another marvelous synergistic verse whereby Jesus synergistically aligns his human will with His Father's Deity Will. Thank you so much for mentioning them.

Keep those synergistic verses coming! They totally annihilate calvinist monergism.
 
how to best say this.... ok, he developed a sin nature once he sinned by disobeying God.

We know that God foreknew (He knows all) that Adam would sin because once Eve ate the fruit and did not die (as they had likely seen animals die) and he either was curious, or wanted to "please" her when she was telling him it was OK.... Then the sin nature came about as part of the judgment when Adam and Eve disobeyed God .. I think that is Gen 3?????? I am not looking it up for chapter confirmation so if I am wrong tell me.....

I do not think that God changed His mind and made an adjustment after the fact to add a sin nature to mankind.... I believe He had it right there on the drawing board when he was laying out His plans.

David even said in Psalms

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me"
And what about Paul

"Paul also spoke of this in Romans 7:18 when he said, “I know nothing good lives in me, that is in my sinful nature.”
So you may believe God never created man with a sin nature.... but certainly is observed through out the bible.
IMO... All of mankind and womankind has inherited the sin nature. It’s part of our make up. That’s why we can’t save ourselves and would be hopelessly lost without our Savior, the Lord Jesus.
Nora, you sound like a Calvinist, you are dead on it so far.
or if the thought of someone having free will and believing in it upsets you
Nora, no, it does not upset me, it sir just against God's word, that's all.
But just a last comment on the sinful nature we have all inherited I still wonder about What was his purpose? and Why make man at all.
For his own glory, and for us to worship him which is the height, depth of the most happiness that one could ever imagine to enjoy, world without end. Now, we just read about this, soon we shall forever enjoy it and we shall then know the half was never told.
 
@Johann

Greetings Johann,

While I agree that the gospel is indeed good news, yea, wonderful news, concerning what Jesús Christ as our surety did for us, how he secured the righteousness of God for God's elect, that gives us right to eternal life in the world to come. But, Johann, this same message is foolishness in the ears of those who have not been called to receive this glorious gospel concerning God's Son. This is not my opinion, but God's truthful testimony which I'm doing nothing more than repeating what God has said in his word.

1st Corinthians 1:18​

“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”

We see both the wisdom and power of God in the pure gospel of Jesus Christ, a gospel that exalts him alone as the saviour of God's elect. I agree we should never be ashamed of this gospel, even though this sin works in our members, that is, in our flesh/old man.

Johann, the salvation under consideration in Romans 1:16 is our practical salvation of growth, knowledge, a true biblical knowledge of Christ's gospel, etc., that which is freely been purchased for us by Jesús being our surety. 1st Timothy 4:13-16; 1st Corinthians 1:21 actually is saying the same truth as Romans 1:16:

1 Corinthians 1:21​

“For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”

The gospel will save us from many false teachings, prophets, pitfalls, etc., even our own deceived hearts, when we walk after flesh which at times we all have been guilty of doing.

Johann, unbelievers could includes God's elect until they believe, yet we are not called to go after sinners who show no interest in the scriptures, we are not to cast the gospel's pearls before swine's. Have you ever consider such scriptures as

Acts 16:16-18​

“And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.”

Have you ever wonder why did not Paul do this sooner, he ignored her for many days, and finally cast out the spirit, yet nothing is said about her following Paul after he cast out the evil spirit. Do you even consider that very little is said of China in the scriptures and very little good has ever came pout from there, it is almost as though God has left them to the deceitfulness and wickedness of their own hearts...I'm sure there are some of God's children there, but very little good has ever came from there. The same could be said of other countries. We do what Paul and others did in the Acts of the apostles, go where there are seemly worshippers of God and there you will find God's children that most likely need to be saved in a practical sense, for regeneration is God's work and he does not need us, as a matter of truth, he will not use us.

Dealt with this already above.

I may come back after I do a couple of things on my "honey to do list" ~ for my bride of almost 60 years.
I have already addressed the same verses you reference, @Red Baker, though, I must point out, they are taken out of context.

J.
 
Let's look at the Greek to see if "sinful nature" is a correct translation. The Greek word is σαρκί. σαρκί translates to flesh (not sinful nature) which is the term overwhelmingly used by all translations except for NIV & NLT.

(Rom 7:18) οἶδα γὰρ ὅτι οὐκ οἰκεῖ ἐν ἐμοί, τοῦτ᾿ ἔστιν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου, ἀγαθόν· τὸ γὰρ θέλειν παράκειταί μοι, τὸ δὲ κατεργάζεσθαι τὸ καλὸν οὐχ εὑρίσκω.

If human nature is sinful then what does that make Jesus who took up the very same human nature we all have?

If you're using the NIV, I noticed how inconsistent it is when it translates σαρκί as "sinful nature" in Rom 7:18 and σὰρξ (has same root as σαρκί) as "flesh" in John 1:14. It dare not ascribe sinful nature to Jesus! That borders on disingenuity on the part of the NIV. I'm wondering if anyone has made a study on how many times the NIV has misled Believers.
Yep.... my major error. Thank you for catching that. I somehow got the wrong translations up when I went to quickly check my memory for a quotes I was remembering yet not quite....and thought I was looking at KJV.

How I managed the NIV which is the worst is beyond me . (I have that at the ready on here because my dumb church has again switched bibles
... no idea why.... and as I usually am now following services on Sundays online I like to read along.

I also have KJV here because of those like Red who are KJO folks I will quote from that but I did not even get that one... Sheeesh.

Thanks for the catch and the lesson (y)
 
But in the NT, "flesh" is the battle ground of the spiritual conflict (cf. Eph. 6:10-18), yet is neutral. One can use the physical body for good or evil.
Exactly! So when the NIV takes it upon itself to declare that flesh has totally sold out to sin then it's overstepping its obligation to properly translate the Bible.
For the Greek philosophers, "flesh" was the source of human problems; death freed one from its influence.
Calvinism has ingested alot of ancient Greek paganism.
 
Exactly! So when the NIV takes it upon itself to declare the flesh is totally sinful then it's overstepping its obligation to properly translate the Bible.

Calvinism has ingested alot of ancient Greek paganism.
Which is Gnosticism.
The Heresy Today
The spirit of this heresy is present with us today when people try to combine Christian truth with other systems of thought.
The spirit of this heresy is present with us today when people emphasize "correct" doctrine to the exclusion of personal relationship and lifestyle faith.
The spirit of this heresy is present with us today when people turn Christianity into an exclusive intellectual eliteness.

The spirit of this heresy is present with us today when religious people turn to asceticism or antinomianism as the best way to find favor with God.



God bless brother.

J.
 
Yep.... my major error. Thank you for catching that. I somehow got the wrong translations up when I went to quickly check my memory for a quotes I was remembering yet not quite....and thought I was looking at KJV.

How I managed the NIV which is the worst is beyond me . (I have that at the ready on here because my dumb church has again switched bibles
... no idea why.... and as I usually am now following services on Sundays online I like to read along.

I also have KJV here because of those like Red who are KJO folks I will quote from that but I did not even get that one... Sheeesh.

Thanks for the catch and the lesson (y)
We're all learning from each other. Thanks for your many insights for the defense of the Faith.
 
@jeremiah1five

Abraham was Hebrew, born from the family of Eber.

Still was a Gentile. Like a Chinaman was still a Gentile There was no jewish nation at that time. When God admitted Abraham into the blessings of the everlasting Covenant confirmed with Christ, he was a Gentile Idolator a chaldean. He was Justified by Faith as a non jew, Gentile Paul pointed that out here Rom 4:6-12

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 ;Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

God made no covenant with the physical descendants of Abraham, not one, but to his spiritual descendants who were given the same Faith he was given, who had been chosen in Christ before the foundation.
 
@civic

Let me add another thought, or two, that may help to convince you, but if it does not, then I would not split, over this with another brother, because as I read up on this topic, good men have divided over this issue. The thoughts below ae totally my thoughts, subject to be corrected by another brother, if they can bring scriptures proof to do so, otherwise, I'll hold fast my understanding until then. Actually, I try to practice what I read many years ago from C.H. Spurgeon: "We must hold fast in one hand what we have received as the truth, while the other hand is open to be taught more perfectly to the truth."

Concerning angels being made in God's image ~I ask you, what other image could they possible be created in? There's not another.
Angels are not created in the image of God. There is no "familial" connection to God.
Also, when angles took a human body in the scriptures, with what image did this body consist of?

In Genesis 19 the two angles that went to remove Lot from Sodom, where men, which had to be in the image of a man when Adam was first created, possessing spiritual wisdom,
Adam possessed no spiritual wisdom. Spiritual wisdom is a gift of God and Adam possessed nothing spiritual in his creation.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:46–47.

Adam was created from matter already in existence. He was natural, of the earth, earthy. Nothing spiritual about Adam.
knowledge, and understanding, and true holiness, etc. The angel in Genesis 32 uses a human form to wrestle with Jacob on even footing. Some have entertained angels unaware, all these without question had God's image that God had given to Adam who lost that image when Satan deceived Eve and then Adam. This image is restored back to us at the new birth being now created in the image of Jesus Christ in our new man where the Spirit of God dwells.
The "angels" happen to be merely pastors or evangelists. Human. Depending on the location these traveling pastors and evangelists and apostles, teachers, and prophets are in view here:

2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels [messengers] unawares.
Heb. 13:2.

The image of God is not natural, but spiritual and Adam possessed none of God's image. If anything he was created a trichotomy of body, soul, and human spirit, but this human spirit did not encompass the man.
The image of God the Father is God the Son. He is the spiritual image of God being the "Lord from heaven."

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col. 1:14–15.

In our new birth we are being conformed into the image of Christ, not Adam. When God said, "let us make man in our image" God looked forward in time to when we become born-again and become spiritual beings and our new life in the Spirit is to be "sanctified" and conformed into the image of Christ. We are already before our new birth conformed into the image of Adam by our physical, natural birth. When born-again, THEN we are being conformed into the image of Christ as Christ is the image of God (the Gather.) There is no better image of a father than a son.

Before being born again we are natural, physical beings. After being born-again we are changed into spiritual beings by "the Spirit which raised Christ from the dead [now] dwells in 'you.'"
 
The "angels" happen to be merely pastors or evangelists. Human. Depending on the location these traveling pastors and evangelists and apostles, teachers, and prophets are in view here:
@jeremiah1five

Jeremiah, I'm very familiar concerning your corrupt, and lying doctrine and have debated in the past on another forum. So, you just deny scriptures, not one, two, or three scriptures, but every scriptures where angles are mentioned, and you also must reject Satan. I know Satan to you is the sinful corrupt nature of man, correct? Generally those that reject angels as ministering spirits, also reject their leader, the old serpent. So, I have one question for you: Who tempted Christ, surely not his sinful nature, since he was free of sin.

Matthew 4:1​

“Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.”

Jeremiah, Who is this?

I have so much more but enough, keep from hijacking this thread. But would love to discuss this at length. But, at moment I need to get back to the other thread we are on, maybe very soon. https://berean-apologetics.communit...f-the-promises-of-god.2412/page-2#post-153321
 
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Adam possessed no spiritual wisdom. Spiritual wisdom is a gift of God and Adam possessed nothing spiritual in his creation.
While I agree Adam was of the earth, earthly, yet he was created in God's image with spiritual wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, which he lost when he sinned. How do we know that he was created in God's image with these spiritual gifts? Because in the new birth, these are part of the new man which is created after the image of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 4:24​

“And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”

Colossians 3:10​

“And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:”
 
As the Holy Spirit makes abundantly clear, the context of John 3:2-3 is "see" as in "perceive", and the context of John 3:4-8 is "enter" as in "ingress".

Lord Jesus used the word "see", which means "perceive", as recorded in (John 3:3, so you adulterate the Holy Word of God to conform to your Free-willian Philosophy by changing the meaning of "cannot see" to your "can see":
The traditions of menThe Holy Word of God
Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God[
(Jim 3:3)
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3)
Where did @Jim ever explicitly write the statements that are in bold blue? Produce the quotes. We wouldn't want to catch you lying again now would we?
 
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