Sorry, but you are fabricating.
You hold men not yet saved or regenerated are his sheep
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
You hold men not yet saved or regenerated are his sheep
@Jim @civic @MTMattie @Eternally-Grateful (I tagged all who agreed with you)
Jim, let me make this very clear to you once again ~God Almighty created angels and man upright, with all they needed to live contended, happy and to serve him, and fear Him for their creation of them. Angels, and man were created after the image of God, in spiritual wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, and uprightness, or free of sin. Of course the angels created higher than man, in every way possible. What God did not do for them is to secured them in that state in which he created them, he left them to the power of their own wills, yes, free will, since they had no sinful nature that would keep them from doing righteousness.
So, Jim, their fall from their their first estate is owing to their own sin, and disobedience ~no one to blame but their own sin of disobedience. So, their condemnation is just. Is this clear, it is about as clear as I can say it.
Now, this being said, in God's foreknowledge of knowing the end from the beginning, knowing not one thing caught God by surprise, he already knew that he alone is immutable, no created being could be ~so God in his foreknowledge, elected some angles and some men to know, love and fear him, and he secured their salvation by the doctrine of election. The angels he just elected some and kept them from leaving their first estate ~ with men, he provided a surety for them in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ who secured eternal life for them by his faith and obedience.
Now Jim, please go back and answer these questions I asked of you, or any one can answer them, or all of you can, even better:
So much talk about fairness ~ as though God must appear before the bar of man to give account of his doings and why he did this or that, based upon man's understanding of fairness. We know that God's ways are absolutely perfect, and just ~ the problem lies in our understanding of the scriptures in seeing this is so.
@TomL
Ephesians 2:4,5
“But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
”God does not love all men without exception or this verse has no meaning of value to God's children. Besides:
John 10:16
“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”Tom, it seem you have a problem with your position based upon Jesus' very own teachings, which you are rejecting! Not a very safe place to be in.
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@TomL
Tom, this is debatable...I'm by no means an expert on the life of Augustine, but fully convinced that he use the phrase "Catholic church" simple to denote the universal church, not as we know the RCC today. It is the Catholic church that uses Augustine as one of their church fathers, which if he were alive today would prove that he is not part of her.
@MTMattie
God never created angels or men just to condemn them, but their creation allows us to know more about the infinite attributes of God that we would have never known apart from the way God chose to show forth is infinite being. Again, see post: #7163
@GodsGrace
I'm now working on your post, so be patience, it's coming, but no way can I make it is two to three post, maybe even more, since I want to cover this as well as possible so no one can gainsay what we will post. Besides, it is a subject that in no way can one cover it with just a few words.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
A true, born-again person would know they are "vessels of mercy" by the Presence of the Holy Spirit.
The Presence of the Holy Spirit in conversion is the only proof of many things going to the validity of a person's claim to Christ.
I am talking about what Catholicism says of him.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
The Promise God gave to Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13) is extended to his seed.
A person who is born-again no matter the dilution of Abram's DNA mixed with a non-Hebrew is the proof of their ancestry as well as their inheritance.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen. 17:7.
The prophet Joel speaking for God says the promise of God's Spirit is given to (the children of) Israel.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the LORD your God, and none else:
And my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward,
That I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids
In those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth,
Blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
Before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:
For in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance,
As the LORD hath said,
And in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joel 2:27–32.
The prophet is delivering a message to Israel.
(verse 27) God declares He is the God of Israel.
(verse 28) God declares "pouring out" His Spirit upon all [Hebrew] flesh, upon [their] sons and daughters, [their] old men, and [their] young men.
(verse 32) God identifies the location of Mount Zion and Jerusalem where this deliverance shall begin. In Acts 2 the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL fulfills the Joel prophecy as Jerusalem is where the Holy Spirit came down "as a mighty rushing wind" upon the eleven disciples in the upper room and an additional three thousand Jews were born-again on the spiritual Church's birthday.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:39.
The Holy Spirit is Promised to Israel - NOT Gentiles.
Thus, anyone who is truly born of the Spirit is God keeping promise to Abram and his seed which means although Esau and Jacob were both the seed of Abram, Jacob inherited the Promise, and later God extended His Promise to Jacob's twelve sons and their descendants. And because God scattered His people four times in history the fact of someone's new birth in Christ is proof that person would have had at least one Hebrew parent in their ancestry. And we're talking from about 722 BC to the present - and beyond.
God promised NOTHING to Gentiles. In fact, this is the attitude of God towards the Gentile nations:
17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.
Not at all@TomL
Ephesians 2:4,5
“But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
God does not love all men without exception or this verse has no meaning of value to God's children. Besides:
John 10:16
“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”
Tom, it seem you have a problem with your position based upon Jesus' very own teachings, which you are rejecting! Not a very safe place to be in.
If one is not hearing Christ he is not his
Following your theology (Jews only) the Holy Spirit confirmed you have Jewish DNA and thus are a descendant of Abraham.
That's what you are saying.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
ALL Scripture is written to Israel.
The Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets are ALL written to Israel.
No writing that makes up the Old Testament is written to Gentiles or to the Gentile nations.
Jewish Christians also wrote the four gospels to Israel as a witness of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and Messiah.
The Acts is written by a Jewish Christian (Luke) and records the Acts of the Holy Spirit in and among the children of Israel.
The epistles were written to and for Jews and other Jewish Christians which letters were their attempt to bring understanding of the New Covenant era Israel found herself in.
The Revelation is written by John, a Jew, and is a prophecy that concerns Israel, their Temple, their prophets, their culture, their religion, and their people for the end times.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Revelation 7:3–8.
The Jewishness of this prophecy is unmistakable.
And the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus has Israel as the subject of this conversation. There is only one word that can be used inclusive of Israel and the word is "world" (kosmos.)
In other words, "the world of Jews" is the context of whom Jesus is referring for all one need know is the high priest under the Law offered prayers and sacrifices for the children of Israel, and now Jesus Christ, as High Priest fulfilled the Law and the ministry of the High Priest under the Law and prayed and offered Himself as sacrifice to and for the children of Israel as saith the Law.
Martin Luther called this prayer by Jesus as High Priest the "Holy of Holies" prayer.
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:1–11.
Jesus as High Priest prays for these twelve Jewish disciples and also for those Jews who will be converted to Christ through their witnessing. Then, in a matter of an hour Jesus will submit Himself to the Will of God and offer Himself - as saith the Law of Moses - for the children of Israel. Thus, Hios sacrifice is to and for the children of Israel.
Take a look at verse 9.
Jesus says "I pray not for the world" (of Gentiles) because neither did the high priest under the Law offer sacrifices for the sins of Gentiles, but for the children of Israel. If Jesus wanted to saved Gentiles, the time to do it would be right here and now as He prays to the Father on behalf of Israel. But as you can see, Jesus DOES NOT PRAY for the world of Gentiles. Thus, Gentiles are without a prayer and without a sacrifice for their sins.
And some 50 days later the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL by Joel the prophet makes a dramatic appearance, and three thousand Jews are born again on this day of the Jewish Feast of Harvest (Pentecost.) And every day after that thousands of Jews become born again and natural Olive tree Israel becomes spiritual Olive tree Israel.
God promised Gentiles NOTHING.
The Abraham Promises is to and for Abraham's Hebrew seed, a people called the children of Israel.
Under the Law the high priest prayed and offered sacrifices for the sins of the children of Israel, and here moments before Jesus is set to go to His cross prays and offers Himself as sacrifice for sin of the children of Israel.
So, you want to use "world" as in "God so loved the world" meaning the whole human race, then that same definition would fit here, too. God may love the world but the world of Gentiles is not covered by the prayer and sacrifice of the Lamb of God.
But Israel is.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Mans will ,no matter how great the man ,is controlled by God and so never free from Gods sovereign control Prov 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he[The Lord] turneth it whithersoever he will.
The word heart here is the word lēḇ:
inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding
So It is the Lord who directs men's will !
The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he[The Lord] turneth it whithersoever he will.
The word heart here is the word lēḇ:
inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding
- inner part, midst
- midst (of things)
- heart (of man)
- soul, heart (of man)
- mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
- inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
So It is the Lord who directs men's will !
God’s good pleasure is the core of the matter regarding God's will in "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Timothy 2:4) because the Holy Spirit makes clear "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
@Johann, you asserted "Your challenge—'Show me man's free will here'—presupposes that this passage must explicitly state human volition in order to affirm it. However, the presence of divine desire (θέλει, thelei, "desires") in verse 4 does not negate human agency but rather assumes it. God's will for all men to be saved necessarily entails that individuals must respond." regarding Holy Spirit inspired Paul writing 2 Timothy 2:4 (quoted above); as a result, you super-imposed "human agency"/man's free-will into "the presence of divine desire"/God's desire with respect to "to be saved", so you exalted man to be savior of himself.
Your third sentence "God's will for all men to be saved necessarily entails that individuals must respond" requires that you negate Holy Spirit inspired Paul's writing in Philippians 2:13 (quoted above).
We just visited the first free-willian failure point respecting 2 Timothy 2:4 which is free-willians interpret Holy Scripture without including the fullness of Holy Scripture.
Your second sentence "However, the presence of divine desire (θέλει, thelei, "desires") in verse 4 does not negate human agency but rather assumes it" is a misrepresentation because I wrote not that God's desire negates man's purported free-will.
We just visited the second free-willian failure point respecting 2 Timothy 2:4 which is free-willians misrepresent another person's writing while discussing the fullness of Holy Scripture.
Your opening sentence "God's will for all men to be saved necessarily entails that individuals must respond." requires the addition of man's free-will in 2 Timothy 2:4 where God's will alone is mentioned:
| Johann's Conclusion | Holy Scripture | |
| who desires all men to free-will choose to be saved and to free-will choose to come to the knowledge of the truth (2 Johann 2:4) | who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (2 Timothy 2:4). |
We just visited the third free-willian failure point respecting 2 Timothy 2:4 which is free-willians adulterate the fullness of Holy Scripture.
A first result of your post is:
- God desires Martin to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Martin free-will chooses to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
- God desires Lisa to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Lisa never free-will chooses to be saved nor to come to the knowledge of the truth.
- Conclusion: the desire of God is so miserably pathetically incapably weak that people like Lisa go to hell thus overcoming and overrides God's desire according to your Free-willian Philosophy.
We just visited the fourth free-willian failure point respecting 2 Timothy 2:4 which is that the Free-willian Philosophy results in man decimating God's desires and exalting man.
A second result of your post is:
- God desires Jane to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Jane free-will chooses to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
- God desires Jack to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Jack never free-will chooses to be saved nor to come to the knowledge of the truth.
- Conclusion: Jack is saved because God desires Jack to be saved despite Jack never free-will choosing to be saved according to your Free-willian Philosophy.
We just visited the fifth free-willian failure point respecting 2 Timothy 2:4 which is that the absence of man's free-will results in all men universally being saved without condition of belief.
We just visited the sixth free-willian failure point respecting 2 Timothy 2:4 which is free-willians inject confusion into the fullness of Holy Scripture such that Holy Scripture is no longer Holy Scripture - you translate Holy Scripture into unholy Free-willian Philosophy.
Each phrase "all men" in 1st Timothy has context which you do not see, and that which you do not see is right in:
1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 [b}who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.[/b]
(1 Timothy 2:1-4)
Almighty God gets what Almighty God desires.
Almighty God exclusively reigns over specifically who is to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth for the Word of God declares “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21) and “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25), so all men who are saved and come to the knowledge of the truth are the blessed recipients of God's Sovereign Grace works!
MTMattie
Well-known member
Ill answer some IMO though you will trounce all over it. Over the years it has been me who has always pointed to Lucifer and company as having been the poster child for free will.. as proof that it is and always has been existent .
Did you every in your almost 80 years of life and in your memorizing the portions of the Holy Scriptures that you have ever read that Lucifer realized the error of his ways and asked for forgiveness?
WE are given forgiveness when we ask for it and repent. But you must want forgiveness and you must want to repent.
Not even when God and Lucifer were having their brouhaha over Job did once Lucifer ever indicate he just might have made a mistake.
But the person, YOU DENY, from whom the core of your beliefs originated from and you have molded to your own beliefs wrote that God , who made the reprobates, would deny them salvation..... yada yada... Would that also not apply to the angels.
You tend to cherry pick what seems right to you. such as jumpine all over us... those you name and others as well for our seeing free will clraly in the bible.
You just wrote... "What God did not do for them is to secured them in that state in which he created them, he left them to the power of their own wills, yes, free will, since they had no sinful nature that would keep them from doing righteousness."
Why did God make man with a sin nature?
What was his purpose?
Why make man at all?
God had the angels, why did he need man?
God had gorgeous heavens and stars and planets to enjoy... could it be that we were an experiment?
Why?
Ill shut up now before I get kicked off of here for saying what I ought not... AFTER
"why in the larger portion of the scriptures (OT) God left most of the world to their own deceived hearts while revealing himself for the most part to Israel who was the least among the nations of the world from Abraham until Christ? Do you have a problem with this? If no, then why not? Does anyone have a problem with this?"
I have no problem with this. You should not either, but I know you do.
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Johann
Well-known member
You’ve cited the wrong verse to begin with, @Kermos. Additionally, your argument isn’t holding up in this debate. I’m open to a meaningful discussion if that’s what you’re after, but based on experience, I’ve found that many Calvinists tend to be quite aggressive and condescending in their approach.
Let me know if you’re interested in an actual discussion or if you’d prefer to leave it be.
Romans 12:2
καὶ μὴ συσχηματίζεσθε τῷ αἰῶνι τούτῳ, ἀλλὰ μεταμορφοῦσθε
"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind..."
μὴ συσχηματίζεσθε (syschēmatízesthe) – Present Passive Imperative 2nd Person Plural ("Do not be conformed")
μεταμορφοῦσθε (metamorphoústhe) – Present Middle/Passive Imperative 2nd Person Plural ("Be transformed")
Paul commands the believers to not allow external pressure to conform them and instead actively participate in their transformation. If man had no free will, such an imperative would be unnecessary.
2. Philippians 2:12
μετὰ φόβου καὶ τρόμου τὴν ἑαυτῶν σωτηρίαν κατεργάζεσθε
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
κατεργάζεσθε (katergázesthe) – Present Middle Imperative 2nd Person Plural ("Work out")
This imperative indicates personal responsibility in salvation’s practical outworking, requiring human volition.
3. Ephesians 5:18
καὶ μὴ μεθύσκεσθε οἴνῳ, ἐν ᾧ ἐστιν ἀσωτία, ἀλλὰ πληροῦσθε ἐν πνεύματι
"And do not get drunk with wine, in which is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit."
μὴ μεθύσκεσθε (mē methýskesthe) – Present Passive Imperative 2nd Person Plural ("Do not get drunk")
πληροῦσθε (plēroústhe) – Present Passive Imperative 2nd Person Plural ("Be filled")
These commands show that believers must choose between being controlled by wine or being filled with the Spirit.
4. Colossians 3:2
τὰ ἄνω φρονεῖτε, μὴ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς
"Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things."
φρονεῖτε (phroneíte) – Present Active Imperative 2nd Person Plural ("Set your minds")
This verb implies a continuous mental focus requiring personal volition.
5. 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
Πάντοτε χαίρετε, ἀδιαλείπτως προσεύχεσθε, ἐν παντὶ εὐχαριστεῖτε
"Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances..."
χαίρετε (chaírete) – Present Active Imperative 2nd Person Plural ("Rejoice")
προσεύχεσθε (proseúchesthe) – Present Middle/Passive Imperative 2nd Person Plural ("Pray")
εὐχαριστεῖτε (eucharisteíte) – Present Active Imperative 2nd Person Plural ("Give thanks")
These imperatives necessitate volitional engagement; believers must choose to obey.
6. 1 Corinthians 6:18
Φεύγετε τὴν πορνείαν
"Flee sexual immorality."
Φεύγετε (pheúgete) – Present Active Imperative 2nd Person Plural ("Flee")
This command assumes human volition to escape immorality.
7. 2 Corinthians 6:14
μὴ γίνεσθε ἑτεροζυγοῦντες ἀπίστοις
"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers."
μὴ γίνεσθε (mē gínesthe) – Present Middle/Passive Imperative 2nd Person Plural ("Do not become")
Paul commands believers not to enter partnerships that compromise their faith.
8. Galatians 5:1
στήκετε οὖν ἐν τῇ ἐλευθερίᾳ
"Stand firm, therefore, in the liberty..."
στήκετε (stḗkete) – Present Active Imperative 2nd Person Plural ("Stand firm")
This imperative demands active perseverance, an exercise of free will.
9. 2 Timothy 2:22
τὰς δὲ νεωτερικὰς ἐπιθυμίας φεῦγε
"Flee youthful lusts."
φεῦγε (pheúge) – Present Active Imperative 2nd Person Singular ("Flee")
Paul instructs Timothy to actively choose avoidance of sinful desires.
10. Romans 6:13
μηδὲ παριστάνετε τὰ μέλη ὑμῶν ὅπλα ἀδικίας τῇ ἁμαρτίᾳ, ἀλλὰ παραστήσατε ἑαυτοὺς τῷ Θεῷ
"Do not present your members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God."
μηδὲ παριστάνετε (mēde paristánete) – Present Active Imperative 2nd Person Plural ("Do not present")
παραστήσατε (parastḗsate) – Aorist Active Imperative 2nd Person Plural ("Present")
Paul assumes that believers have the volition to choose obedience.
These imperatives necessitate an act of the will—an individual must choose obedience. If man had no free will, then these commands would be meaningless.
1Ti_2:4
who desires all people -- God's will that we pray for all men, for God desires all people to be saved. cf. 2Pe_3:9.
Key of verse = all men, cf. vs 1, not for just an "elect" nation of Israel.
come knowledge of the truth -- Refers to hearing, understanding, believing, and committing one's self to following (obeying) the gospel message. It covers all aspects of conversion Rom_10:17; Heb_11:6; Luk_24:47; Heb_5:9;
Four arguments for universal prayer to the One True God -- 1Ti_2:5-6
1) One God for all men
2) One mediator for all
3) Availability of ransom for all
4) Paul's commission to the Gentiles - cf 1Ti_2:7
How do you obey the Imperatives of Messiah?
J.
You are avoiding @Red Baker's point, which is that you wrote "You hold men not yet saved or regenerated are his sheep" (post #7,181) to wit he replied "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
” (Ephesians 2:4,5).@TomL, do maintain context of the conversation. Of course, your error is exposed by context.
Johann
Well-known member
I will answer it for @TomLYou are avoiding @Red Baker's point, which is that you wrote "You hold men not yet saved or regenerated are his sheep" (post #7,181) to wit he replied "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
@TomL, do maintain context of the conversation. Of course, your error is exposed by context.
(Eph. 2:1, 5) Does this verse support the Calvinist doctrine of total inability?
CLAIM: Paul writes, “You were dead in your trespasses and sins… even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” (Eph. 2:1, 5). Calvinists sometimes argue that our human condition is “dead” in the sense of having a total inability to respond to God. Like Lazarus in the cave (Jn. 11), we needed God to impart spiritual life and call us from this corpse-like, dead state. Calvinists often argue, “Is a dead person able to respond to God or make himself alive? No! Therefore, God had to give us spiritual life before we could believe and respond to him.” John Calvin stated that this is “a real and present death.”[1] Wood states that this expression for death is not “merely figurative… The most vital part of man’s personality—the spirit—is dead to the most important factor in life—God.”[2] Is this the case?
RESPONSE: This cannot refer to corpse-like death or total inability. Instead, this refers to alienation and separation from God. There are a number of reasons for holding this view:
First, the IMMEDIATE CONTEXT demonstrates that Paul is thinking of death in terms of SEPARATION. In the subsequent verses, Paul describes these “dead” believers as being separated or alienated from God: “Remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ” (Eph. 2:12-13). Later, Paul writes, “[The Gentiles were] being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart” (Eph. 4:18). All of these terms describe separation—not corpse-like death.
Second, the GREATER CONTEXT of the NT uses the term “dead” for people who can still do certain things. For instance, Jesus told a man to “allow the dead to bury their dead” (Mt. 8:22; cf. Lk. 9:60). If “death” means total inability, then how can they do anything (including burying physically dead people)? Paul spoke of widows who were “dead even while [they] live” (1 Tim. 5:6). Jesus used the term “dead” to refer to the believers at Sardis (Rev. 3:1).
Third, the GREATER CONTEXT of the NT uses the term dead to refer to SEPARATION. In the parable of the prodigal son, the father says, “This son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found” (Lk. 15:24). A number of observations can be made regarding this passage: (1) This is a soteriological passage; (2) the father in the parable uses the term “dead” in a metaphorical sense—not a literal sense; and (3) the father parallels being “dead” with being “lost” or separated from himself.
Fourth, even some Reformed authors agree that being “dead” refers to SEPARATION. For instance, F.F. Bruce understands the term death to refer to the sinner being “severed and alienated from God, the source of true life.”[3]
Finally, are we really to believe that non-Christians are so corpse-like dead that they cannot respond to God’s own call in the gospel? After all, the gospel is “the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes” (Rom. 1:16). Are people so dead that they cannot even respond to “the power of God” himself? Humans do not seek God on their own (Rom. 3:11), but can they seek a God who is presently calling and seeking after them? Adam and Eve could hear God’s words in the Garden (Gen. 3:9) and responded to him (Gen. 3:10). How much more should non-Christians respond to God’s call through the gospel message?
For more on this subject, see our earlier article, “Calvinism and Arminianism.”
[1] John Calvin, Ephesians 2:1 (in location).
[2] Wood, A. S. (1981). Ephesians. In F. E. Gaebelein (Ed.), The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Ephesians through Philemon (Vol. 11, p. 33). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House.
[3] Emphasis mine. Bruce, F. F. (1984). The Epistles to the Colossians, to Philemon, and to the Ephesians (p. 280). Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.
Ephesians 1:4: How Calvinistic Exegesis is Logically Impossible | Free Thinking Ministries
In another article found on FreeThinkingMinistries.com, Tim Stratton has argued why “Calvinism is Impossible.” By “impossible” Stratton means logically impossible when held alongside other essential…
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J.
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Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
I somehow missed that chatroom.. Actually from what I heard I did not miss much
I'm sorry, Johann, for putting a "2" where "1" should have been in the citation 1 Timothy 2:4, yet the 1 Timothy 2:4 content was visible, and the 1 Timothy 2:4 citation linked to BibleHub.com's page for 1 Timothy 2:4, so, to get this on track, the below repairs the error of the "2"
If you were truly "open to a meaningful discussion" then you would carefully disect the below to illuminate your perceived error.
Nothing you posted changes the Truth (John 14:6) which God had me posted to you.
God’s good pleasure is the core of the matter regarding God's will in "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4) because the Holy Spirit makes clear "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
@Johann, you asserted "Your challenge—'Show me man's free will here'—presupposes that this passage must explicitly state human volition in order to affirm it. However, the presence of divine desire (θέλει, thelei, "desires") in verse 4 does not negate human agency but rather assumes it. God's will for all men to be saved necessarily entails that individuals must respond." regarding Holy Spirit inspired Paul writing 1 Timothy 2:4 (quoted above); as a result, you super-imposed "human agency"/man's free-will into "the presence of divine desire"/God's desire with respect to "to be saved", so you exalted man to be savior of himself.
Your third sentence "God's will for all men to be saved necessarily entails that individuals must respond" requires that you negate Holy Spirit inspired Paul's writing in Philippians 2:13 (quoted above).
We just visited the first free-willian failure point respecting 1 Timothy 2:4 which is free-willians interpret Holy Scripture without including the fullness of Holy Scripture.
Your second sentence "However, the presence of divine desire (θέλει, thelei, "desires") in verse 4 does not negate human agency but rather assumes it" is a misrepresentation because I wrote not that God's desire negates man's purported free-will.
We just visited the second free-willian failure point respecting 1 Timothy 2:4 which is free-willians misrepresent another person's writing while discussing the fullness of Holy Scripture.
Your opening sentence "God's will for all men to be saved necessarily entails that individuals must respond." requires the addition of man's free-will in 1 Timothy 2:4 where God's will alone is mentioned:
| Johann's Conclusion | Holy Scripture | |
| who desires all men to free-will choose to be saved and to free-will choose to come to the knowledge of the truth (2 Johann 2:4) | who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4). |
We just visited the third free-willian failure point respecting 1 Timothy 2:4 which is free-willians adulterate the fullness of Holy Scripture.
A first result of your post is:
- God desires Martin to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Martin free-will chooses to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
- God desires Lisa to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Lisa never free-will chooses to be saved nor to come to the knowledge of the truth.
- Conclusion: the desire of God is so miserably pathetically incapably weak that people like Lisa go to hell thus overcoming and overrides God's desire according to your Free-willian Philosophy.
We just visited the fourth free-willian failure point respecting 1 Timothy 2:4 which is that the Free-willian Philosophy results in man decimating God's desires and exalting man.
A second result of your post is:
- God desires Jane to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Jane free-will chooses to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
- God desires Jack to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Jack never free-will chooses to be saved nor to come to the knowledge of the truth.
- Conclusion: Jack is saved because God desires Jack to be saved despite Jack never free-will choosing to be saved according to your Free-willian Philosophy.
We just visited the fifth free-willian failure point respecting 1 Timothy 2:4 which is that the absence of man's free-will results in all men universally being saved without condition of belief.
We just visited the sixth free-willian failure point respecting 1 Timothy 2:4 which is free-willians inject confusion into the fullness of Holy Scripture such that Holy Scripture is no longer Holy Scripture - you translate Holy Scripture into unholy Free-willian Philosophy.
Each phrase "all men" in 1st Timothy has context which you do not see, and that which you do not see is right in:
1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 [b}who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.[/b]
(1 Timothy 2:1-4)
Almighty God gets what Almighty God desires.
Almighty God exclusively reigns over specifically who is to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth for the Word of God declares “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21) and “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25), so all men who are saved and come to the knowledge of the truth are the blessed recipients of God's Sovereign Grace works!
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