Johann, those scriptures and similar ones are written to the children of Israel, not to the Egyptian's; to Indigenous peoples; to witch doctors of Hatti, Africa, nor, the Chinese, etc. Those scriptures are written to folks like you and I, and others on this forum, etc.
Johann, those scriptures and similar ones are written to the children of Israel, not to the Egyptian's; to Indigenous peoples; to witch doctors of Hatti, Africa, nor, the Chinese, etc. Those scriptures are written to folks like you and I, and others on this forum, etc.
Plenty Scripture references in the N.T. brother-why would God give Imperatives if I can't cooperate?
Johann, there's a huge difference between initiated, and not of! That's is borderline of corrupting the word of God, maybe I should be honest and tell you that it is!
You use Websters dictionary, you know what I'm referring to.
Romans 10, Johann, is addressing a different subject altogether than Romans 9. I went through Romans 10 recently, and have no time to do so now, yet Romans 10 is addressing a practical salvation "from ignorance to a true knowledge" of the Christ ~ not salvation from sin and condemnation. .
Romans 10:3
“For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.”
The elect Jews who fear God and were zealous, yet still in ignorance of how one is made righteous without the works of the law! Paul prayed for them, not to add to the number of the elect, but for their practical salvation from ignorance .......much like here on this forum, where God has children on both sides of the issue of how one is made righteous before God. This battles is on going, with a few reprobates stirring up the division.
Romans 10:1-3 (Lexham Bible):
“Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For being ignorant of the righteousness of God and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.”
Key Greek Verbs and Terms:
ἐρωτῶ (erōtō): "desire" (present active indicative) — Paul expresses a deep longing for the salvation of Israel, which can be understood as salvation from sin and condemnation,
not just practical ignorance.
προσεύχομαι (proseuchomai): "pray" (present middle indicative) — The continuous action of prayer, with an aim toward salvation, suggests an earnest desire for spiritual deliverance.
ζηλοῦσι (zēlousi): "they have a zeal" (present active indicative) — Their zeal is commendable but misdirected because it is not according to the knowledge of God’s righteousness.
ἀγνοοῦντες (agnoountes): "being ignorant" (present active participle) — The ignorance here is critical; it’s an ignorance not just of practical matters but of the essential truth of how righteousness is obtained in Christ.
ἀντιποιούμενοι (antipoioúmenoi): "seeking to establish" (present middle participle) — This participle shows their active effort to set up their own system of righteousness.
οὐκ ὑπετάγησαν (ouk hupetagēsan): "they did not submit" (aorist active indicative) — The verb ὑποτάσσω (hupotassō), “submit,” emphasizes their refusal to yield to God’s way of righteousness, which is the issue Paul is addressing.
Paul is not just talking about a
"practical" salvation in terms of ignorance, but about salvation from sin and condemnation. The ignorance that Paul addresses in Romans 10:3 is ignorance about how one is made righteous — a fundamental issue of salvation. The Jews were zealously seeking righteousness through their works, but they were failing to submit to the righteousness of God revealed in Christ (Romans 10:4). This is a matter of salvation from sin, not simply practical knowledge.
Therefore, Romans 10 is addressing the issue of how one is made right with God, a doctrinal and salvific issue.
Romans 9:30-33 (Lexham Bible)
Romans 9:30-33 (Lexham Bible):
“What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, did not attain to the law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written: ‘Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and the one who believes in him will not be put to shame.’”
Key Greek Verbs and Terms:
ἐδίωξαν (ediōxan): "pursue" (aorist active indicative) — Israel was actively pursuing righteousness, but they were pursuing it through works and not by faith. This pursuit was futile for their salvation from sin and condemnation.
ἐπίστευσαν (episteusan): "believed" (aorist active indicative) — The Gentiles, in contrast, attained righteousness by faith, which is essential for salvation.
προσκρούει (proskroúei): "stumbled" (present active indicative) — Israel’s failure to believe in Christ as the righteousness of God led to their stumbling.
Romans 9 directly addresses the failure of Israel to attain righteousness because they sought it through works and not through faith. The context of this passage points to salvation from sin and the condemnation that Israel faced because of their rejection of Christ, who is the righteousness of God. This links directly to Romans 10, where Paul speaks of their ignorance of the righteousness of God.
Romans 10:4
Romans 10:4 (Lexham Bible):
“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
Key Greek Terms:
τέλος (telos): "end" (nominative singular) — The word τέλος is used to indicate the completion or fulfillment of the law, meaning that Christ has brought the law to its intended purpose by providing righteousness through faith.
Christ is the end of the law in that He completes it. The law, which could not justify anyone, points to Christ, who alone offers salvation. This is a salvific declaration, not merely a practical salvation. Paul is explaining how salvation comes through Christ, not through adherence to the law, and that this is for everyone who believes.
Romans 10 is about salvation from sin and condemnation, not merely practical knowledge. The ignorance mentioned in Romans 10:3 is not just about not knowing some practical truth, but rather ignorance about the means of righteousness before God—righteousness through faith in Christ.
The notion that Romans 9 addresses a different issue is inaccurate because both chapters speak to the same issue: Israel’s failure to understand how righteousness is obtained. Romans 9 shows that Israel’s rejection of Christ leads to their condemnation, and Romans 10 explains how righteousness through faith is the answer to that condemnation.
Romans 10 is not merely about practical salvation from ignorance; it is about salvation from sin and condemnation, specifically addressing the need for righteousness, which comes through faith in Christ. The passages from both Romans 9 and Romans 10 complement each other, showing the failure of Israel to attain righteousness through works and the need for salvation through faith in Christ, the end of the law.
Jesus did say they would not come, which to me only proves that their flesh had no desire to do so, and I will add ~ this is true of all men by nature. Johann, if one does come and one does not come, then let me ask you this question ~ WHO made the difference? If you or anyone else said that man man's will in the one's that came made the difference, then by your own confession, you are embracing a work gospel, pure and simple. This goes against Jesus' teaching and Paul's:
Matthew 16:17
“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”
1st Corinthians 4:7
“For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?”
Matthew 16:17 – "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah..."
In Matthew 16:17, Jesus tells Peter that “flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.” The phrase "flesh and blood" (σὰρξ καὶ αἷμα, sarx kai haima) refers to human wisdom or understanding. Jesus is saying that Peter's knowledge about Christ as the Messiah didn’t come from human reasoning but was divinely revealed by God the Father.
However, this doesn’t mean that Peter had no role to play in this revelation. The verb "revealed" (ἀποκαλύπτω, apokalyptō) in the Greek indicates something that was disclosed or uncovered by God. While this revelation was initiated by God, Peter still had to acknowledge it and confess it.
This shows that while God's initiative in salvation is crucial, a human response is still necessary. The divine revelation doesn’t mean a person has no choice but to believe — rather, it means that God graciously makes His truth known,
but it is still the individual's choice to accept that revelation.
2. 1 Corinthians 4:7 – "For who makes you differ?"
Now, in 1 Corinthians 4:7, Paul asks, “For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive?” The Greek word for “differ” (διαφέρω, diapherō) speaks to how one is distinguished or set apart from others, and the emphasis here is on
humility —
acknowledging that everything, including our spiritual gifts and knowledge, is given to us by God.
But just because everything we have is a gift doesn’t negate human responsibility.
The verb "receive" (λαμβάνω, lambanō) implies an active receiving of what is offered.
Salvation, like other gifts from God, is received by the believer through faith, which itself is a gift (Ephesians 2:8). To say that man’s will has no part would imply that humans are mere passive recipients, but that’s not how Scripture presents it.
In Philippians 2:12, Paul says, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." This implies that humans are called to actively respond to the grace given to them. The Greek verb for "work out"
(ἐνέργεῖτε, energeite) suggests active participation. It’s not that the will of man is totally passive, but that salvation is a cooperative process — God initiates, and we respond.
3. Who Makes the Difference?
The big question here is, “Who makes the difference between those who come to Christ and those who don’t?” As you pointed out, it is God who reveals Himself, and I agree with that. God’s grace is the starting point,
but the Greek verb "come" (ἔρχομαι, erchomai) in John 6:37 implies that those who come to Jesus still make a choice to respond to God’s call.
In John 6:37, Jesus says, "All that the Father gives me will come to me..." The verb "gives" (δίδωμι, didōmi) and "come" (ἔρχομαι, erchomai) are active and dynamic. This shows that God’s sovereign giving does not cancel out the human choice to come to Christ.
There’s a cooperation here — God gives, and the individual responds.
So, we’re not saying that human will initiates salvation — absolutely not. But we are saying that salvation requires a response. God gives the gift, and humanity must actively receive it through faith.
4. Grace and Human Responsibility
Now, to your concern about “works” and salvation — I understand that you’re worried that acknowledging man’s role in responding to God's grace might somehow suggest a works-based salvation. But I don’t think that’s the case. The key here is understanding that faith itself is a gift (Ephesians 2:8). Even the will to believe is enabled by God’s grace. It’s not about works; it’s about God’s grace empowering us to believe and choose.
The verb "believe" (πιστεύω, pisteuō) is used throughout the New Testament to describe the human response to God’s offer of salvation.
John 1:12 says, “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.” The verb "believed"
(ἐπίστευσαν, episteusan) is in the aorist tense, showing a completed action, but this action is still a response — a choice made by the individual.
The question of who makes the difference between those who are saved and those who are not is answered in the balance between God’s sovereign initiative and man’s volitional response. It’s not a matter of salvation by works, but rather the gift of grace that requires a human response. The Greek verbs point to this dynamic interplay — God enables, and we choose to respond. Our free will does not nullify God’s sovereignty, but it affirms that salvation is not forced; it is a cooperative process.
Let’s remember that salvation is God's gift (Romans 6:23), and yet we are still called to respond in faith (Romans 10:9). That’s the beautiful tension in Scripture.
Actually, I know the same concerning those who preach free will, they just refuse to accept man being totally corrupt by nature. They reject such scriptures as:
Romans 7:18
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”
To will is only present by God creating a new man within us, if the new man was not there, we would never desire to do that which is pleasing to God, never. Even with the new man, and even in our most spiritual moments, sin is present, that keeps us from doing God's will perfectly. It is in our prayers, loving others, preaching/teaching/witnessing, etc., sin is present, even with our new man being also present! How much more so, with those not born again! You really do not want to go there where unregenerate men and women live!
Time out.
J.
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