An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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@Johann,
Show me man's free-will here.
1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 [b}who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.[/b]
(1 Timothy 2:1-4)
@Johann showed me that he incidentally produced universal salvation of everyone everywhere including all believers and all unbelievers in 1 Timothy 2:4, @brightfame52, or Johann incidentally produced a description of God in which God is miserably pathetically incapably weak.
To God be the glory, forever,
Kermos
The tag to TomL was in Red Baker's comments, not mine. Does that answer your question?
Johann
Well-known member
Only a pleasure @Kermos
Man’s Free Will in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 – A Greek Verbal and Contextual Analysis
Your challenge—"Show me man's free will here"—presupposes that this passage must explicitly state human volition in order to affirm it.
However, the presence of divine desire (θέλει, thelei, "desires") in verse 4 does not negate human agency but rather assumes it. God's will for all men to be saved necessarily entails that individuals must respond.
1. Greek Verbal Analysis of 1 Timothy 2:4
Key Phrases and Their Verbs
ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι (hos pantas anthrōpous thelei sōthēnai) – "who desires all men to be saved"
θέλει (thelei, present active indicative, 3rd person singular) – Derived from thelō, meaning "to desire, to will." The present indicative conveys ongoing desire, rather than an immutable decree. If this were an absolute decree of God’s will (βουλή, boulē, meaning "determined counsel"), then all men would necessarily be saved, but this is not the case.
σωθῆναι (sōthēnai, aorist passive infinitive) – "to be saved." The passive voice here means that salvation is something received, but it does not imply an automatic or irresistible application.
Salvation is conditioned upon response, which aligns with the broader biblical witness of faith and repentance (John 3:16+, Acts 16:31+, Romans 10:9-10+).
καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν (kai eis epignōsin alētheias elthein) – "and to come to the knowledge of the truth"
ἐλθεῖν (elthein, aorist active infinitive) – "to come." The active voice here indicates that the subject (man) is the one who must come to the knowledge of the truth. This verb does not denote compulsion but rather volitional movement toward truth.
2. The Assumption of Human Responsibility in the Text
God’s Will Does Not Override Human Choice
The use of θέλει (thelei) instead of βουλή (boulē) indicates that God’s will for salvation is not a decree that overrides human decision, but a desire that must be responded to. If God's will were always determinative in salvation, all men would necessarily be saved, yet Scripture repeatedly affirms human rejection of God’s call (Matthew 23:37+, John 5:40+, Acts 7:51+).
The Verb “To Come” (ἐλθεῖν) Implies Human Action
The phrase "to come to the knowledge of the truth" uses ἐλθεῖν (elthein, active), showing that humans must actively come to the knowledge of the truth. If this were an irresistible act of God, we would expect a passive verb (e.g., "to be brought to knowledge"), but the text places the responsibility on man.
Prayer for “All Men” Assumes That They Can Respond
Paul urges prayer for all men, including kings and rulers. If salvation were restricted to a predetermined elect group without the possibility of individual choice, this universal intercession would be meaningless. The fact that prayers are commanded for all implies that all are capable of responding to the gospel.
3. Cross-References Confirming Free Will in Salvation
Matthew 23:37+ – "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem... how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (οὐκ ἠθελήσατε, "you were not willing"). The resistance of Israel to Christ’s call explicitly affirms human will in rejecting salvation.
John 5:40+ – "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." The phrase οὐ θέλετε (ou thelete, "you do not will") shows human volition in rejecting salvation.
Acts 7:51+ – "Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost." The Greek verb ἀντιπίπτω (antipiptō, "to oppose, resist") signifies active opposition to God's work, not passive non-election.
Romans 10:9-10+ – "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth... and believe in thine heart... thou shalt be saved." The verbs ὁμολογήσῃς (homologēsēs, "you confess") and πιστεύσῃς (pisteusēs, "you believe") are both active, indicating human participation in salvation.
1 Timothy 2:4 Assumes Human Free Will
The Greek grammar distinguishes between God’s desire (θέλει, "wants") and man's responsibility (ἐλθεῖν, "to come"), making it clear that salvation is not forced but requires response.
The verb ἐλθεῖν (to come) is in the active voice, showing that men must actively come to the knowledge of the truth, which is impossible if man’s will is in bondage to the point of incapacity.
The broader biblical witness supports that men can resist or accept God’s will (Matthew 23:37+, John 5:40+, Acts 7:51+).
Therefore, 1 Timothy 2:4 presupposes free will, rather than denying it, as it affirms that all men are capable of responding to God's will for their salvation.
1Ti_2:4
who desires all people -- God's will that we pray for all men, for God desires all people to be saved. cf. 2Pe_3:9.
Key of verse = all men, cf. vs 1, not for just an "elect" nation of Israel.
come knowledge of the truth -- Refers to hearing, understanding, believing, and committing one's self to following (obeying) the gospel message. It covers all aspects of conversion Rom_10:17; Heb_11:6; Luk_24:47; Heb_5:9;
Four arguments for universal prayer to the One True God -- 1Ti_2:5-6
1) One God for all men
2) One mediator for all
3) Availability of ransom for all
4) Paul's commission to the Gentiles - cf 1Ti_2:7
1Ti 2:4 who is ever willing for all mankind to be saved and to come to an increasing knowledge of the truth.
Who will have all men to be saved - Because he wills the salvation of all men; therefore, he wills that all men should be prayed for. In the face of such a declaration, how can any Christian soul suppose that God ever unconditionally and eternally reprobated any man? Those who can believe so, one would suppose, can have little acquaintance either with the nature of God, or the bowels of Christ.
God bless brother.
J.
I know I am a vessel of mercy because of Fruit of the Holy Spirit according to the Word of God! Praise Lord Jesus!!!
Please reply to the post directed to you, below.
Wow Red, I did not see that coming
1John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
1John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1John 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1John 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
1John 2:5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
1John 2:6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
What more can I say, I am flabbergasted, maybe John the Baptist?
John 1:28 - These things took place in Bethany across the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
John 1:29 - The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Do you believe that you lie in the evil one?
The Apostle John wrote "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world" (1 John 2:2) in the same book as he wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19) and "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13).
Please answer the question, above.
You also quoted "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29), and John issued no dependency upon faith here, so the world is cleansed of sin; therefore, your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) of including everybody everywhere as the world leads to the following:
- the Lamb took away the sin of Glenn of the world. Glenn chose to believe in Christ, so God rewards Glenn with eternal life.
- the Lamb took away the sin of Francis of the world. Francis chose not to believe in Christ, so God punishes Francis with eternal death.
- Conclusion: the Lamb took away the sin of both Glenn and Francis, yet hell is Francis' eternal abode, so the Lamb taking away sin fails to keep Francis out of hell according to your Free-willian Philosophy.
The "world" in both 1 John 2:2 and John 1:29 is constrained to exclusively God's chosen people.
Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE CHOOSER!!!
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@synergy @MTMattie
Should is correctly use!
Webster 1828: We think it strange that stones should fall from the aerial regions.' In this use, should implies that stones do fall. In all similar phrases, should implies the actual existence of the fact, without a condition of supposition.
Should in 2nd Peter 3:9 implies the actual existence of the fact/truth that none should perish but all will come to repentance!
One of the biggest objections that I have toward the determinist philosophy of the Calvinist/Reformed theology is that it completely eliminates any purpose whatsoever of this creation. If God wanted to create a company of believers none of whom had any participation in that believing, He could have done that without the need for sending an even much larger company of nonbelievers to eternal condemnation. And given the relative numbers of both companies the Calvinist/Reformed theology clearly indicates that God is much more interested in filling up Hell than in filling up Heaven.
The whole purpose of this creation is to establish a company of beings for eternal life with Him who willingly choose to believe the word of God and through that to then believe in God.
The whole purpose of this creation is to establish a company of beings for eternal life with Him who willingly choose to believe the word of God and through that to then believe in God.
Yes, should implies that some stones do fall. It does not imply that all stones do fall.
@Red Baker, If you are correct in your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9, then none of that chapter makes any sense whatsoever. If God is the sole determinant of who will perish and who will come to repentance, then the entire discussion of the warning that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night (2 Pet 3:1-18) is moot. Why warn about something that no one has any ability to prepare for or to deal with?
That would be like warning the one who has just jumped off of a 30-story building and is passing the 20th floor not to jump.
Johann
Well-known member
In 2 Peter 3:9, the key Greek phrase under discussion is:
"μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι."
Translated as:
"not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
1. Greek Word for "Should" in 2 Peter 3:9
In "should perish" and "should come to repentance," the key Greek words are:
ἀπολέσθαι (apolesthai) – "should perish"
2Pe 3:9 The Lord Κύριος vvv οὐ is not slow [to fulfill] βραδύνει [His] τῆς promise ἐπαγγελίας, as ὥς some τινες understand ἡγοῦνται, slowness, βραδύτητα but ἀλλὰ is patient μακροθυμεῖ with εἰς you, ὑμᾶς, not μὴ wanting βουλόμενός anyone τινας to perish, ἀπολέσθαι but ἀλλὰ everyone πάντας to come χωρῆσαι. to εἰς repentance. μετάνοιαν
Aorist middle infinitive of ἀπόλλυμι (to destroy, to perish).
The aorist infinitive suggests the possibility of perishing, not a guarantee that some will or will not perish. The middle voice reflects an action affecting the subject (i.e., those perishing bear responsibility).
χωρῆσαι (chōrēsai) – "should come"
Aorist active infinitive of χωρέω (to move forward, make room, advance).
The active voice means the subject (people) must take action to move toward repentance. This contradicts any notion of an irresistible divine decree, since the verb does not suggest compulsion.
2. Why "Should" and Not "Will"?
The Greek does not use a future indicative ("will") but an infinitive, which denotes possibility rather than inevitability.
If the verse were stating that all of the elect will come to repentance, it would likely use a future indicative (χωρήσουσι or ἐλεύσονται), which it does not.
The aorist infinitive here expresses potential outcome rather than a fixed decree.
3. Does 2 Peter 3:9 Refer Only to the Elect?
The argument that "us" (ἡμᾶς, implied from "us-ward") must be read into "all should come to repentance" is grammatically unnecessary and forced:
The subject changes from "us" to "all"
The phrase "not willing that any should perish" (τίνας ἀπολέσθαι) uses τίνας, an indefinite pronoun meaning "anyone," not restricted to the elect.
The phrase "but that all should come to repentance" (πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι) uses πάντας ("all"), which in normal Greek usage means everyone, not just the elect.
If the passage only referred to the elect, then "perish" would be impossible.
If τινας (any) only referred to the elect, then it would imply that some of the elect might perish, which contradicts the very doctrine of election in Calvinism.
Instead, the passage teaches that God desires all (πάντας) to come to repentance, which makes no sense if it is restricted to an already elect group.
4. Context: 2 Peter 3 and God’s Patience
The longsuffering (μακροθυμέω) of God in delaying judgment is for all men, not just the elect.
The contrast in 2 Peter 3:7 states that the present heavens and earth are reserved for judgment of the ungodly, meaning that God's delay is giving everyone opportunity to repent.
The Greek does not use "will" but instead an aorist infinitive, which signifies possibility rather than necessity.
The words "any" (τινας) and "all" (πάντας) refer to humanity, not just the elect, as the grammatical structure does not require the implied limitation.
The verb χωρῆσαι (should come) is active, showing that the responsibility for repentance is on people, not an irresistible divine act.
The argument that "us" must be inserted into the second clause is not supported by the Greek grammar.
This verse, therefore, affirms God's desire for universal repentance, while recognizing that individuals must actively come to repentance. It does not support the idea that only the elect "will" inevitably repent.
Thanks brother.
J.
@Johann
Johann, it does indeed align perfectly with all scriptures and the teaching of Christ and his apostles.
Luke 4:18
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,”Galatians 4:8
“Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.”
Ephesians 2:2
“Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:”Johann, those scriptures and similar ones are written to the children of Israel, not to the Egyptian's; to Indigenous peoples; to witch doctors of Hatti, Africa, nor, the Chinese, etc. Those scriptures are written to folks like you and I, and others on this forum, etc.
Johann, there's a huge difference between initiated, and not of! That's is borderline of corrupting the word of God, maybe I should be honest and tell you that it is!
Romans 10, Johann, is addressing a different subject altogether than Romans 9. I went through Romans 10 recently, and have no time to do so now, yet Romans 10 is addressing a practical salvation "from ignorance to a true knowledge" of the Christ ~ not salvation from sin and condemnation. .
Romans 10:3
“For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.”The elect Jews who fear God and were zealous, yet still in ignorance of how one is made righteous without the works of the law! Paul prayed for them, not to add to the number of the elect, but for their practical salvation from ignorance .......much like here on this forum, where God has children on both sides of the issue of how one is made righteous before God. This battles is on going, with a few reprobates stirring up the division.
Jesus did say they would not come, which to me only proves that their flesh had no desire to do so, and I will add ~ this is true of all men by nature. Johann, if one does come and one does not come, then let me ask you this question ~ WHO made the difference? If you or anyone else said that man man's will in the one's that came made the difference, then by your own confession, you are embracing a work gospel, pure and simple. This goes against Jesus' teaching and Paul's:
Matthew 16:17
“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”1st Corinthians 4:7
“For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?”Those two scriptures have recently been dealt with, but if you desire for me to do so again then tell me. Ephesians 1:13 at least three times in the past couple months.
Actually, I know the same concerning those who preach free will, they just refuse to accept man being totally corrupt by nature. They reject such scriptures as:
Romans 7:18
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”To will is only present by God creating a new man within us, if the new man was not there, we would never desire to do that which is pleasing to God, never. Even with the new man, and even in our most spiritual moments, sin is present, that keeps us from doing God's will perfectly. It is in our prayers, loving others, preaching/teaching/witnessing, etc., sin is present, even with our new man being also present! How much more so, with those not born again! You really do not want to go there where unregenerate men and women live!
Johann
Well-known member
2Pe 3:9 The Lord Κύριος vvv οὐ is not slow [to fulfill] βραδύνει [His] τῆς promise ἐπαγγελίας, as ὥς some τινες understand ἡγοῦνται, slowness, βραδύτητα but ἀλλὰ is patient μακροθυμεῖ with εἰς you, ὑμᾶς, not μὴ wanting βουλόμενός anyone τινας to perish, ἀπολέσθαι but ἀλλὰ everyone πάντας to come χωρῆσαι. to εἰς repentance. μετάνοιαν
to us-ward = toward us, but the texts read "you".
3) "But is longsuffering to us-ward," (Greek alla makrothumei lis humas) "But is longsuffering or forbearing toward you," the "plural you", persons of His address
Transliteration: hymas
Morphology: PPro-A2P
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Accusative 2nd Person Plural
Strong's no.: G4771 (σύ)
Meaning: You.
Imagine you're watching someone assemble a massive puzzle, but instead of looking at the full picture on the box, they keep picking up the same two or three pieces and insisting that these alone define the entire image. That’s what happens when verses are taken in isolation—important details from the broader context are ignored, leading to an incomplete or even misleading interpretation.
Shalom.
J.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Not here to talk about me
Johann
Well-known member
to us-ward — The oldest manuscripts, Vulgate, Syriac, etc., read, “towards YOU.”
any — not desiring that any, yea, even that the scoffers, should perish, which would be the result if He did not give space for repentance.
come — go and be received to repentance: the Greek implies there is room for their being received to repentance (compare Greek, Mrk_2:2; Jhn_8:37).
J.
civic
Well-known member
fatalism is not mentioned. But the passage implies man can come willingly and that its God will no one perishes. This verse does not support your theology but instead opposes it 100%.
hope this helps!!!!
brightfame52
Well-known member
Thats about the elect, the usward. He addressed them as elect in the first letter 1 Pet 1:2
2 ;Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
The non elect God ordained them to perish 1 Pet 2:8
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
The dreaded Romans 9!
Unfortunately for you Kermos...
NO OTHER THEOLOGIAN except, of course and as usual, Calvinist theologians,
understand Romans 9 the same way Calvinists do.
Why?
BECAUSE it doesn't mean what you THINK it means.
It's speaking to corporate election....that would be the election of the nation of Israel
to have been the chosen people/nation from which God would reveal Himself.
It's simply Paul trying to explain to his Jewish brethren that God has decided to let
Gentiles into the fold. You might remember that Jesus said He had OTHER SHEEP to attend to.
John 10:16
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
The Jews did not understand how Gentiles could be allowed into the fold.
There is NOTHING in Romans 9, 10 or 11 that speaks to individual salvation....
although, of course, some of the verses do apply also to individuals.
Here's what KILLS Romans 9 Kermos:
Romans 9:30-33
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal.
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
33 As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
Verse 30 The Gentiles embraced God. Not by pursuing the Law but by faith.
Verse 31 The Jews were following the Law....THEY have NOT attained their goal.
Verse 32 The Jews missed the righteousness of God by pursuing the Law instead of by faith....they stumbled over the stone: Jesus
Verse 33 Jesus is the great stumbling stone. God will be found IN THAT STONE...not by going AROUND IT.
and
Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart "-that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Paul states that the word of faith is what he is preaching.
If a person confesses and believes that Jesus is Lord....that person will be saved.
WHOEVER BELIEVES IN JESUS WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.
Again Paul confirms what he's teaching in Romans 9....there is NO DIFFERENCE between the Jew and the Gentile...
There is only ONE LORD.
Our Lord abounds in riches FOR ALL WHO CALL ON HIM.
(calling is an active verb....it requires an action from us.....Free Will)
And
Paul EMPHASISES:
WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.
An action WE TAKE AS HUMANS will save us...
Paul makes this abundantly clear.
God calls,
We reply.
There goes monergism.
Johann
Well-known member
I haven't received ANY notification regarding your response to me, @Red Baker, and I'm curious as to why.
J.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
You know what you need BF?
A different version of the bible.
Apparently you can't handle the KJV.
Not that there's anything wrong with IT....
YOU just don't seem to grasp English really well....
You should try a more simple version.
It might be of help.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
I'm not reading the above J.
I said that NO ONE should even be replying to your concept.
I had mentioned the other sheep of Jesus but you never replied.
I had mentioned that Paul spent 3 chapters in Romans regarding the Gentiles.
This is all I'm going to say.
FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD....
THE WORLD.
Are you like the Calvinists that believe THE WORLD doesn't mean THE WORLD?
MTMattie
Well-known member
@Red Baker replied
“Choose life in order that you may live”
“Choose for yourselves today whom you will serve.”
If you are told to choose, you are given a choice.... If you have a choice, you have free will.
