Eternally-Grateful
Active member
Thank you
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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Richard
Active member
Eternal security is the present possession of eternal life. In other words, from the point of salvation, it is the irrevocable and unfailing condition of eternal life guaranteed the true believer in Christ in both now and into eternity.
civic
Well-known member
John makes it clear in both of his closing statements to assure believers who are in Christ.
Some want to make Gods promises a lie and make Him a liar.
John 20:31-but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
1 John 5-
We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10;Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony.Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11;And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.12;Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
John Evens
Member
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:2
Jesus is preparing a place for us. He knows we will make it all the way home. The Bible tells us we can “greatly rejoice” that our inheritance of salvation “can never perish, spoil or fade.”
3 Praised (honored, blessed) be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah)! By His boundless mercy we have been born again to an ever-living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 [Born anew] into an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay [imperishable], unsullied and unfading, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are being guarded (garrisoned) by God’s power through [your] faith [till you fully inherit that final] salvation that is ready to be revealed [for you] in the last time.
6 [You should] be exceedingly glad on this account, though now for a little while you may be distressed by trials and suffer temptations,
1 Peter 1:3–6
Jesus is preparing a place for us. He knows we will make it all the way home. The Bible tells us we can “greatly rejoice” that our inheritance of salvation “can never perish, spoil or fade.”
3 Praised (honored, blessed) be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah)! By His boundless mercy we have been born again to an ever-living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 [Born anew] into an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay [imperishable], unsullied and unfading, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are being guarded (garrisoned) by God’s power through [your] faith [till you fully inherit that final] salvation that is ready to be revealed [for you] in the last time.
6 [You should] be exceedingly glad on this account, though now for a little while you may be distressed by trials and suffer temptations,
1 Peter 1:3–6
The real question of this debate is not, “Can you lose your salvation,” but instead, “If you lost it, did you ever have it to begin with?” 1 John 2:19 answers that question quite clearly:
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
Amen
God does not make mistakes. He does not save people knowing he will have to take his free gift back.
Dizerner
Well-known member
God does not remove people's free will before salvation and neither does he remove it after.
The one big mistake OSAS always makes, is it assumes any promise it finds in the Bible is unconditional, but this assumption is unwarranted. The context of any one verse in the Bible, is always the entire Bible—it is not one solitary verse ripped out of context as an island of isolation all unto itself.
Consider this verse:
"I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever. But now the LORD declares: Far be it from Me!" 1 Sam. 2:30
Consider the same logic rephrased for other proof texts, It's the exact same logic and principle:
Therefore the LORD God of Israel says: `I said indeed that no one can take my sheep out of my hand.' But now the LORD says: `Far be it from Me."
Therefore the LORD God of Israel says: `I said indeed that nothing can separate you from the love of Christ.' But now the LORD says: `Far be it from Me."
I don't believe we need a form of eternal security to feel secure, nor is rejection of it necessarily works salvation.
The warnings in Scripture apply to believers, not almost believers—they describe fundamental salvation, not just rewards.
And warning of something that can literally never happen is actual dishonesty.
To declare one cannot be secure without OSAS is to declare God's grace is not enough unless it eliminates free will, but we all get saved with a free will decision.
Just as it is not "works salvation" to accept Christ's free gift with the will, so it is not "works salvation" to continue to have to accept Christ's gift through trusting in him.
The one big mistake OSAS always makes, is it assumes any promise it finds in the Bible is unconditional, but this assumption is unwarranted. The context of any one verse in the Bible, is always the entire Bible—it is not one solitary verse ripped out of context as an island of isolation all unto itself.
Consider this verse:
"I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever. But now the LORD declares: Far be it from Me!" 1 Sam. 2:30
Consider the same logic rephrased for other proof texts, It's the exact same logic and principle:
Therefore the LORD God of Israel says: `I said indeed that no one can take my sheep out of my hand.' But now the LORD says: `Far be it from Me."
Therefore the LORD God of Israel says: `I said indeed that nothing can separate you from the love of Christ.' But now the LORD says: `Far be it from Me."
I don't believe we need a form of eternal security to feel secure, nor is rejection of it necessarily works salvation.
The warnings in Scripture apply to believers, not almost believers—they describe fundamental salvation, not just rewards.
And warning of something that can literally never happen is actual dishonesty.
To declare one cannot be secure without OSAS is to declare God's grace is not enough unless it eliminates free will, but we all get saved with a free will decision.
Just as it is not "works salvation" to accept Christ's free gift with the will, so it is not "works salvation" to continue to have to accept Christ's gift through trusting in him.
civic
Well-known member
Eternal life is our security in Christ just as He promised.
Otherwise one is saved by works and not faith. Our faith is in the One who saves , gives eternal life and the promise of the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit that makes us new creations in Christ and the new man reigns.
Eternal life must not be confused with natural life. Natural life is subject to death and is derived by human generation. Spiritual life has a beginning but no end. The difference is that one possessing just natural life will be separated eternally from God in the lake of fire, whereas the one possessing eternal life will be united and in fellowship with God for all eternity. Separation from God is eternal death and union with God is eternal life. Eternal life is what its name suggests an unending or everlasting life. If eternal life could be lost then it is misnamed because it wouldn’t really be eternal and be referred to as temporal or conditional life. All who have eternal life will live forever with Christ in heaven. No one who has come to faith in Christ will ever be cast out and go to the lake of fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels. Once you believe in Christ your eternal destiny in God’s kingdom sealed and is guaranteed.
Eternal life is not just unending life. It is the life we now have in God through Jesus. John refers to Jesus Christ Himself as eternal life. It is life that comes from God. A person who has eternal life has God’s life within him.
It is obvious that eternal life doesn’t begin when we die. Jesus said, He who believes in Me has (present tense) everlasting life. He didn’t say that the one who believes in Him will have (future tense) everlasting life. He said that he has eternal life in the here and now from that very first moment of faith. Eternal life is unending life.
Jesus, Paul and John emphasize that eternal life is a present reality and the present possession of the Christian in the here and now. It will have its ultimate fulfillment in the future but every believer has eternal life at the moment they believe in the Son of God.
Jesus said I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. (John 10:28).That means nothing or no one can remove a believer from Christ.
Paul tells us in Ephesians 4:30 that believers are sealed for the day of redemption. If believers did not have salvation or eternal life/security then the sealing could not truly be until the day of redemption. Paul in Romans 8:38-39 really drives home the everlasting promise of eternal life/salvation for the believer "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Our eternal security is bought with the blood of Christ, promised to us by the Father Who cannot deny Himself and sealed in the believers heart by the Holy Spirit. What wonderful promises believers have for their eternal security in Christ.
Jesus tells us in John 3:15-16 that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will have eternal life, not might have but actually possesses that everlasting life. If a person is promised eternal life and then to have it taken away then it was never eternal to begin with and it makes Jesus out to be a liar and the promises of God to be false. Below we see more promises the believer can count on for eternal life now and in the future. We can be confident in the promises of God
John 3:16,18
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:47
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
John 6:54
54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 10:27-30
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."
Matt 25:46
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life,
1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Hope this helps,
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I have been looking into your thoughts on eternal life. I have found some very good information.
The one who possesses eternal life, therefore, can never be lost, or else he could never have possessed eternal life to begin with.
If God had intended to convey the idea that a believer could never be lost, He could not have spoken in clearer terms than to use the term eternal. If He had intended to convey the idea that a believer could be lost, He would never have spoken of eternal life as a present possession.
Dizerner
Well-known member
but Christ as a Son over His own house,
whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts (Heb. 3:6-8 NKJ)
Stubbornly embracing Satan's lie of OSAS is hardening one's heart and resisting the Spirit.
whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts (Heb. 3:6-8 NKJ)
Stubbornly embracing Satan's lie of OSAS is hardening one's heart and resisting the Spirit.
When Scripture speaks of the believer possessing “life” it always refers to eternal life. Because eternal life can never coexist with eternal death, once one possesses eternal life, it forever nullifies the possibility of ever possessing eternal death.
This is why Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24
This is why Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
Agreed 100%
God has a lot of conditional promises. Eternal life is not one of them
The problem uyou have is you have to assume
1. A person who was brought to their knees, or as jesus said, poor in spirit (literally bankrupt) suddenly forgets he was bankrupt (I have literally had to file bankruptcy before and i tell you. i will never go back again..
2. This person who then comes to an end of himself. And reaches up to heaven in faith, much like the tax collector. Not even able to look up because of his shame and guilt. Calling out and begging for Gods mercy
3. Who has repented. And come to this saving faith in christ. And come to know that God will save him Because he trusts God with his eternity.
4. Who was empowered to become gods child (john 1) who was adopted by God into his family. Who was made live, who was made a new creature, who has experienced the spirit personally (his spirit testified without spirit that we are children of God) who has experienced the chastening of god when we get out of line, who knows no matter what, apart from grace. He is lost without hope.
Would freely give this up and repent back to the point where he was before he got saved.
I am sorry. I can not buy this. And if someone thinks this is true. I must just question if they ever became poor in spirit. Or felt Gods saving grace and new birth
TibiasDad
Well-known member
I would tend to agree with you on this.
But this is not to say that those who believe cannot reject their faith at a later time. Paul told Timothy, “if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;” (2Tim 2:12) Grammatically, the “we” is referring to active believers and would include Paul and Timothy.
Perseverance is a constant theme in the admonitions of Scripture; the guarantee is only effective if we persevere in our faith in the face of adversity and persecution.
Circular thinking.
Again, “no believer”, active voice, will be cast out. This does not preclude a believer rejecting his faith, and reverting to unbelief.
God obligates himself when he places belief as a conditional factor to the equation. That was his choice, not ours. “To as many as believed” he gave the right to become children of God. No scripture says to as many as were given belief” or we’re “made to believe”; Belief is always placed in the hands of man to exercise. As those who heard Peter’s first sermon on Pentecost asked after hearing his message,
….“Brothers, what shall we do?”
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:37-38)
“Repent and be baptized…” is the act of demonstrating that you believe what was preached to you.
Doug
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Anytime an action is required on the part of man, it is conditional in nature. Paul teaches the conditional nature clearly in Rom 8:12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Doug
Greetings Doug,
Of course I was speaking concerning how many use the very popular mantra of easy-believism, which I would think most would agree with that, or, at least they should.
But, I also made it very clear, that I firmly believe in "Once Loved Always Loved" ~ for this is the testimony of the word of God. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Romans 11:29
“For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”I have heard that so many times preached by SBN (Jimmy Swaggart's broadcast), and others over the years. Let us consider your scripture that you provided to see if it teaches what you have come to believe it does.
2nd Timothy 2:12
“If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:”
Doug, no elect saint would openly deny Christ, for they know that he alone has the words of eternal life. Some that have come and gone among the very elect, have denied Christ, but even among them, I know almost no one that are wicked enough to openly and publicly speak against Christ. If they left us, then truly they were not of us, per the testimony of God's word.
But, Doug, there are other ways and more likely ways of denying Christ among those that profess Jesus Christ and we see it everyday among professors. Consider:
2nd Peter 2:1
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”Jude 1:4
“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”Doug, here're two ways professors of Jesus Christ deny him. 1. They preach a unlimited atonement that Christ died for all, not just for the Church, thereby they deny plain scriptures in favor of their own self-serving doctrine they have come to embrace serving a god they gave created in their own heart of a god that they would do, if they were God.
Acts 20:28
“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”2. Men turn the grace of God into lasciviousness by promising life/liberty to their followers while they themselves are still serving their lust! This is denying the very faith one professes to believe in.
2nd Peter 2:19
“While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.”Why are you saying this? You are not following the word of God, by making that statement. All that were ordained to eternal life shall be saved, not one lost, no, not one.
Zacchaeus was a spiritual elect son of Abraham that Jesus had to go by and give him assurance that he was truly a son of Abraham, part of the promised seed.
Our faith was not part of the equation, the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ, the elect's surety alone was the means of free justification by grace alone. Many scriptures were provided above already.
Not as the means of being saved from sin and condemnation ~ Jesus Christ alone secured eternal life for God's elect. Doug, I will look at Psalms 89 later where David sings of God's faithfulness in imparting eternal life to God's elect, a life that he promised never to rescind on, since he lay help upon one that was mighty to save~Jesus secured eternal life for every single child of promise. You and others can reject and deny this, but, it would not be wise to do so.
Doug, read these precious words and believe them, be very slow to deny them, or, the very verse you quoted above from 2nd Tim. 2:12 may one day be used against you.
It is talking about belief in God, in Jesus Christ, in the gospel. It is by grace. Theologically the term “grace” has three basic connotations. It can refer to the gift of salvation, that which is given; it can refer to the system of salvation, the manner in which the gift is received; or it can refer to that attribute in God’s nature that makes it all possible. The grace in Ephesians 2:6 is this last one, grace in the sense of God’s graciousness. Grace is the most extreme expression of God’s love when it comes face to face with sin. Grace is God’s willingness and desire to forgive and accept the sinner in spite of his sin, to give the sinner the very opposite of what he deserves.
If that were the end of it, then all of humanity would be saved. But there is the caveat, through faith. Through, meaning "by means of", "by reason of", "by the occasion of". Faith, meaning "assurance", "belief". The primary condition for receiving (and retaining) God’s saving grace always has been and continues to be faith. This was clearly stated as early as Abraham: “Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness” (Gen 15:6). That salvation is still conditioned upon faith is stressed in the NT especially by John (1:12; 3:15-18,36; 6:47; 20:31) and by Paul. When the jailer at Philippi asked Paul and Silas, “‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’” they replied, “‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved’” (Acts 16:30-31). The very theme of Romans is that “a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (3:28; see also 1:16-17; 3:22,25; 5:1-2; 10:9-10). Abraham (as in Gen 15:6) is cited as the continuing standard or paradigm of justification by faith (Rom 4:1-25; see Gal 3:1-14). See also 1 Cor 1:21; Gal 2:16; 3:26; Eph 2:8; 3:17; Phil 3:9.
Grace is God's part, faith is our part.
What's worse, is to reject and deny Jesus Christ secured the free gift of eternal life for God's elect. See Psalms 89 #6,036 and address those scriptures. Once loved, always loved.
How is Perseverance of the Saints different form OSAS? What is the difference?
Jim, that has not yet been brought up, so what is your point for asking?
I will say this for now~teaching the need for perseverance to prove one's salvation, is much better than teaching once a confession, then all is good for that person to have eternal life, regardless what they believe and how they live.
