An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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I have only heard of one unpardonable sin and a true believer in Jesus Christ can not commit it. It is deliberately resisting the Holy Spirit’s witness and invitation to turn to Jesus.
Jesus said “Whoever comes to me I will never drive away.” John 6:37
Our God is a compassionate and merciful God. He desires that no one should be lost, but that all should come to salvation through repentance and personal faith in Jesus as Savior and Lord.
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Acts 2:21
civic
Well-known member
Yet the Bible says we can know we have eternal life. And we also know in Eph 1 and Romans 8 the indwelling Holy Spirit is the down payment / guarantee of our inheritance in Christ and that nothing in this life can separate us from Him. And we know it’s called eternal life and not temporal or conditional life.
civic
Well-known member
No that was only the Pharisees who were guilty of that sin. Not everything we read in the Bible applies to all people in all times. This is one of those examples.
Yes, eternal life. Not temporal or conditional life.Yet the Bible says we can know we have eternal life. And we also know in Eph 1 and Romans 8 the indwelling Holy Spirit is the down payment / guarantee of our inheritance in Christ and that nothing in this life can separate us from Him. And we know it’s called eternal life and not temporal or conditional life.
I never heard it put that way but I like it.
I'm not here to in anyway to put you down, or any man as far as that goes. I was offering a suggestion to give your understanding more force/strength, etc., in debating others.
The words save/saved/salvation are used in different senses in the scriptures, though most only use them in one sense, salvation from sin and condemnation.
This common question tries to pin eternal life down to some act at some point in time. Is this Biblical? Did the apostles ever ask this question? How would they answer such a question? Weren’t we all saved at the cross?
Let’s ask Paul the question.
Paul said he was saved before the world began (2nd Tim 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (Ist Tim 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (Ist Tim 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Rom 13:11).Can you believe it? Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. And this is the key to understanding our wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ.
Since God saves sinners in stages, or phases, we must not limit salvation to just one idea or one event at one time. Paul saw his own salvation occurring in five phases.
It used to be called the Ordo Salutis of salvation, which means the order of salvation; but it is not studied or preached much any more. We live in the perilous times of the last days, when men no longer want sound doctrine preached to them (2nd Tim 3:1 – 4:4). They prefer fables over truth, so the true doctrine of salvation has been almost lost from the earth.
Everyone talks about “getting saved,” but no one can explain it from the Bible. There are “invitations” and “decisions” and “methods” for salvation, but none of these words or ideas are from the Bible. Consider:
The ETERNAL PHASE is God’s plan and choice from eternity to allow sin into the world and to save His elect from it. Since He is eternal and sovereign, God planned in eternity all that He does in time. There are no surprises to God. He planned to allow sin, so that He could display His glorious grace in saving His elect from it and displaying His power and wrath on the rest.
The LEGAL PHASE is God’s work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in Another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.
The VITAL PHASE is God’s application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ’s death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives.
The PRACTICAL PHASE is our response to His salvation. He sends His Spirit into our hearts, and we cry “Abba, Father.” With new hearts from regeneration, we seek the truth and love it when we hear it. We hear the gospel, and we believe it. We want to be baptized to show Him our love. We want to know more of what we can do to please Him, and we gratefully cherish all His promises, which give us comfort and peace now.
The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future.
Now, when someone asks you, “When were you saved?” you should ask him which phase he is asking about! You were saved before creation in God’s elective plan; you were saved at the cross in His legal provision; you were saved at an unknown time in your life by the Spirit’s regeneration; you were saved to knowledge and assurance of the truth by the gospel; and you will yet be saved at our Lord’s coming. Glory!
JOHN GILL (1697-1771; Baptist) wrote, “Salvation may be considered, either in the contrivance of it from eternity, in the mind and counsel of God; and the designation of persons to it; or in the impetration of it in time by Christ; or in the application of it in effectual vocation by the Spirit of God; or in the entire consummate enjoyment of it in heaven. In every of these views of it, good works are not necessary to it…. Good works are necessary to be done … to adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour, to recommend religion to others, to testify the truth of our faith, and give evidence of the reality of internal holiness.”
JOHN BRINE (1703-1765; Baptist) wrote, “It may justly be said, that in some sense the elect are saved before they believe, and consequently without faith, as appears by these words: ‘who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling; not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, given us in Christ before the world began’. Salvation in a sense precedes vocation; for the elect are saved with many temporal salvations, before, and in order to, calling; or they are preserved by God’s kind providence from many dangers, and recovered out of many afflictions, in order to be called; which I take to be included in those words: ‘preserved in Jesus Christ, and called’. Besides, they are saved in a spiritual sense, before calling; for Christ hath redeemed them from the curse of the law, the wrath of God; and also has conquered all their enemies, sin, Satan, death, and hell. This was the work which the Father gave him to do, and he came into the world to accomplish; for, ‘he came to seek and to save that which was lost’. The distinction of the impetration and application of salvation, which is commonly made by divines, perfectly agrees with this; the impetration of salvation is before, the application of it begins, when we believe.
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Again, through faith in what? Seriously, faith is not just a sign or your tee shirt.
civic
Well-known member
Salvation is similar to other concepts/doctrines in the bible. There are past, present and future aspects with eternal life and sanctification. Its similar to being in a race. We started the race in the past, we are currently running the race and one day we will finish the race.
Also we trusted Christ in the past, we are trusting Him now and trust Him for our future. And with God He has been faithful in the past, He is faithful in the present and is faithful for our future.
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Since you believe "man must still chose to use (belief in Christ)" (proof post #5,816), then you believe not "I have been saved by grace period" because your two combined statements of your heart nullify the Word of God which was proclaimed to you in the post to which you replied “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).
The Christ of us Christians declares “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21), but you believe "man must still chose to use (belief in Christ)" (proof post #5,816); therefore, you believe you came to Christ as a work of Eternally-Grateful for which you boast of your self-willed work that you think saved you yet you actually revile the authority of King Jesus of the Kingdom of God (2 Peter 2:9-10); in contrast, Lord Jesus says I came to Christ as a work of God for which I am eternally grateful to God for the saving Grace of God regarding this blessed work of God that I believe in the Son whom the Father has sent!
Lord Jesus Christ made absolutely clear that every occurrence of believing in God referred to by the Word of God as recorded in John chapter 3 is by God's Grace alone. We Christians are saved by God's grace, for God's glory! Thanks be to God for the cleansing Blood of Christ!
You believe you buy your way into heaven with your free-will saying "apart from Christ, I chose to believe Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:9-10).
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE FAITH!!!
civic
Well-known member
Choose this day whom you will serve must have been ripped out of your bible eh ?
If anyone is willing declared Jesus let him come after Me must also be ripped out of your bible too eh ?
Strange that you have no will. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.
Jesus said we have a will to choose, desire, to intend.
Matt 16:24 - it any man WILLS
Strong's Lexicon
theló: To will, to wish, to desire, to intend
Original Word: θέλω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: theló
Pronunciation: theh'-lo
Phonetic Spelling: ( eth-el'-o,)
Definition: To will, to wish, to desire, to intend
Meaning: I will, wish, desire, am willing, intend, design.
next fallacy
hope this helps !!!
brightfame52
Well-known member
Im familiar with all the phases, in fact you and i have discussed that b4, however i was asking a poster who denies faith in salvation Eph 2:8 is a fruit of the Spirit, if its not, then were does it originate from
brightfame52
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
no one here denies faith in salvation, just your view on it is whats in question.
hope this helps !!!
Brother, let me answer this since it will help to confirm my posts above.
Ephesians 2:8
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”You asked: "Is Faith in this scripture, a fruit of the Spirit or not in your view ?"
Brother, faith in this verse is neither faith of the flesh (the old man) nor is it our faith being brought forth, which you would call a gift even though our faith is given to us, but that is not under consideration here in Ephesians 2:8,9.
In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.
When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.
I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
Ephesians 2:8
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” If it is not of ourselves, then whose faith is it? The faith of Jesus Christ that produced his perfect obedience.Romans 3:22
“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”
brightfame52
Well-known member
Where does faith come from here in this scripture ? Eph 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
brightfame52
Well-known member
@Red Baker
I see your view, and I have no problem with it, now I would like Jim to speak for himself, but thank you for your input
I see your view, and I have no problem with it, now I would like Jim to speak for himself, but thank you for your input
brightfame52
Well-known member
@Red Baker
Is that Faith then a fruit of the Spirit ? Who regenerates a person, is it the Spirit of God ?
Is that Faith then a fruit of the Spirit ? Who regenerates a person, is it the Spirit of God ?
civic
Well-known member
You are not reading what the passage says.
1- salvation - being saved is by grace
2- salvation by grace comes by/thought faith ( genitive case )
3- salvation by grace does not come from yourself- this ( nominative case ) refers to salvation ( nominative case ) which is the gift by Gods grace.
4- salvation is the gift of Gods grace
hope this helps !!!
brightfame52
Well-known member
Where does faith come from here in this scripture ? Eph 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
civic
Well-known member
wrong question for the passage.
but Jesus says is comes from man- its up to them to believe- He doesn't give anyone faith in the gospels. He said on more than a dozen occasions it was their faith that saved them and not the faith He gave them that saved them.
nope its mans responsibility as taught by Jesus the authority on faith and salvation.
Jesus taught that a persons faith comes before they are healed or saved. The saving/healing doesn't come before faith. Calvinism has it just the opposite.
Here is how some would rewrite Jesus words below and add to scripture things that were never said nor implied.
Parenthesis is Calvinism false assertion below that God gives faith. Jesus said it was THEIR faith that saved them.
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."
Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"
Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.
Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."
Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."
Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
