An Article on free will

Red Baker said:
Civc, I truly have no problem addressing any verse, for I know that the word of God has a perfect flow of truth the the scriptures cannot be broken, if a person can break another person argument, then that person does not have the truth.

Now if you quote a verse, the please quote it correctly, not doing so shows me that a person is corrupting scriptures to support their own biased teaching. The word of God said:

John 7:17​

“If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”

Doing the will of God and choosing of one's own fallen nature are two different things altogether ~ if a person chooses to do the will of God, then as I said above, that's the new man within them, not the old Adamic fallen nature that one is born with, for that is impossible according to the scriptures quoted above from Romans 8. Why do not you, or one of your friend address Romans 8:1-9?
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It is the will of God that whoever sees and believes will be saved (john 6)

Not sure why your trying to remove free will.
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
John 3: 9
Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10;Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.14 ;And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
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Okay and ?
 
Dizerner said:
No they cannot, lol.

If "choose" means someone else chooses for you, it's a meaningless word.
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Sure they can. Even Joshua told Israel they could not choose to serve the Lord , cant you read ? Josh 24:19

19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the Lord: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

Please do a study on the words "cannot" and learn wisdom
 
brightfame52 said:
Sure they can. Even Joshua told Israel they could not choose to serve the Lord , cant you read ? Josh 24:19
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LOL. You are presuming choose means you cannot choose anything, then reading it back in and saying "of course my presupposition that choosing means no one can actually choose is right."

You can't make this stuff up, folks.

Now choose means "someone else chooses."
 
Dizerner said:
It seems you think the grace of God is not powerful enough to act upon the spiritually dead.
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Pitiful response ~ I know that only the power of God can cause one who is spiritual dead, to hear, believe, repent, and have a joyful spirit in desiring to follow Christ. I know that it takes the same power that resurrected Jesus from the dead, to resurrect spiritual dead sinners to life.

Ephesians 1:19​

“And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,"
Dizerner said:
Does one have to be regenerate to be convicted of sin, since that is a "good" thing?

So no one unsaved can ever be convicted of their sin?
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Yes, indeed, for it to be true conviction.
2nd Corinthians 7:9-11~"Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter."
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Dizerner said:
I hope you can see just how unbiblical and insulting to God's powerful grace that is.
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Look at the worm calling the snail slimy! It is you that does not understand grace, thinking man has an active part in his salvation from sin and condemnation! We have no claims to God's grace, but you folks truly believe it was your free will that decided for Christ. So far from the truth of the holy scriptures which are God's testimony to us concerning all truths.
Dizerner said:
8 "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 "of sin, because they do not believe in Me; (Jn. 16:8-9 NKJ)

Notice here that those who "do not believe" are the ones convicted.

We call that Preceding Grace.
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I'm coming back to make a separate post for this. I've been debating men like you for fifty years, there's nothing you can present that I have not seen or dealt with, I do not believe, but, you can test me to see, that's your right.
 
Red Baker said:
Doing the will of God and choosing of one's own fallen nature are two different things altogether ~ if a person chooses to do the will of God, then as I said above, that's the new man within them, not the old Adamic fallen nature that one is born with, for that is impossible according to the scriptures quoted above from Romans 8. Why do not you, or one of your friend address Romans 8:1-9?
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Matthew Henry Commentary on the Bible​

Romans 8:1-9​

Believers may be chastened of the Lord, but will not be condemned with the world. By their union with Christ through faith, they are thus secured. What is the principle of their walk; the flesh or the Spirit, the old or the new nature, corruption or grace? For which of these do we make provision, by which are we governed? The unrenewed will is unable to keep any commandment fully.

And the law, besides outward duties, requires inward obedience. God showed abhorrence of sin by the sufferings of his Son in the flesh, that the believer's person might be pardoned and justified. Thus satisfaction was made to Divine justice, and the way of salvation opened for the sinner. By the Spirit the law of love is written upon the heart, and though the righteousness of the law is not fulfilled by us, yet, blessed be God, it is fulfilled in us; there is that in all true believers, which answers the intention of the law. The favour of God, the welfare of the soul, the concerns of eternity, are the things of the Spirit, which those that are after the Spirit do mind.

Which way do our thoughts move with most pleasure? Which way go our plans and contrivances? Are we most wise for the world, or for our souls? Those that live in pleasure are dead, 1 Timothy 5:6. A sanctified soul is a living soul; and that life is peace. The carnal mind is not only an enemy to God, but enmity itself. The carnal man may, by the power of Divine grace, be made subject to the law of God, but the carnal mind never can; that must be broken and driven out.

We may know our real state and character by inquiring whether we have the Spirit of God and Christ, or not, ver. 9. Ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Having the Spirit of Christ, means having a turn of mind in some degree like the mind that was in Christ Jesus, and is to be shown by a life and conversation suitable to his precepts and example.
 
Dizerner said:
LOL. You are presuming choose means you cannot choose anything, then reading it back in and saying "of course my presupposition that choosing means no one can actually choose is right."

You can't make this stuff up, folks.

Now choose means "someone else chooses."
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Man cannot choose spiritual things while he is spiritually dead.
 
Obadiah said:

Matthew Henry Commentary on the Bible​

Romans 8:1-9​

Believers may be chastened of the Lord, but will not be condemned with the world. By their union with Christ through faith, they are thus secured. What is the principle of their walk; the flesh or the Spirit, the old or the new nature, corruption or grace? For which of these do we make provision, by which are we governed? The unrenewed will is unable to keep any commandment fully.

And the law, besides outward duties, requires inward obedience. God showed abhorrence of sin by the sufferings of his Son in the flesh, that the believer's person might be pardoned and justified. Thus satisfaction was made to Divine justice, and the way of salvation opened for the sinner. By the Spirit the law of love is written upon the heart, and though the righteousness of the law is not fulfilled by us, yet, blessed be God, it is fulfilled in us; there is that in all true believers, which answers the intention of the law. The favour of God, the welfare of the soul, the concerns of eternity, are the things of the Spirit, which those that are after the Spirit do mind.

Which way do our thoughts move with most pleasure? Which way go our plans and contrivances? Are we most wise for the world, or for our souls? Those that live in pleasure are dead, 1 Timothy 5:6. A sanctified soul is a living soul; and that life is peace. The carnal mind is not only an enemy to God, but enmity itself. The carnal man may, by the power of Divine grace, be made subject to the law of God, but the carnal mind never can; that must be broken and driven out.

We may know our real state and character by inquiring whether we have the Spirit of God and Christ, or not, ver. 9. Ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Having the Spirit of Christ, means having a turn of mind in some degree like the mind that was in Christ Jesus, and is to be shown by a life and conversation suitable to his precepts and example.
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In Romans 8:9, Paul says that a mark of believers is that they live “in the realm of the Spirit.” Here is a look at the context of this statement:

In Romans 8:1, the apostle Paul declares, “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” This verse establishes the central theme of the eighth chapter, namely, the assurance of salvation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Believers are free from the condemnation of sin because they have been united with Christ through faith.

Romans 8:2 explains why there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The law of the Spirit of life has set believers free from the law of sin and death. In other words, the Holy Spirit empowers believers to obey God’s moral law rather than being enslaved to the power of sin and death.

Romans 8:3 explains that the Law of Moses, which was given to Israel, was powerless to save people from sin because of human frailty. However, God sent His own Son to become a human being and offer Himself as a sacrifice for sin (cf. John 10:18). In doing so, God condemned sin in the flesh and freed believers from the power of sin.

Romans 8:4 explains that Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice for sin to fulfill the requirements of the law—the requirements being perfect obedience to God (cf. Matthew 5:17). Those who have been saved by grace through faith in Christ (cf. Ephesians 2:89) are empowered to walk according to the Spirit and fulfill the requirements of the law through the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:5 contrasts those who live according to the flesh and those who live according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on sinful things, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on heavenly things.

Romans 8:6 distinguishes between a mind set on the flesh, which leads to death, and a mind set on the Spirit, which leads to life and peace. Believers are urged to set their minds on the things of the Spirit and have life and peace (cf. Colossians 3:1–4).

Romans 8:7 explains that a mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God and cannot obey His law. This is because the flesh is corrupted by sin and is unable to please God (cf. James 4:4).

Romans 8:8 bluntly states that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. In other words, those who live according to their own sinful desires and not according to the Spirit are unable to please God. It is only through faith in Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit that believers can please God (cf. Colossians 1:10 and 1 John 3:22).

Romans 8:9 contrasts the realm of the flesh with the realm of the Spirit. The NIV translation uses the word realm to describe two different spheres: the sphere of the flesh and the sphere of the Spirit. A realm is where a person operates, whether it is the area influenced by the flesh or the area influenced by the Spirit. If a person has the Spirit of God within, then he is living in the realm of the Spirit, which is the domain of the Holy Spirit. But if a person does not have the Spirit of God, then he remains in the realm of the flesh and does not belong to God.

The New Living Translation of Romans 8:9 associates the realm of the Spirit with living under the Spirit’s control: “But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)”

Romans 8 reminds us that salvation is primarily a work of God in us. It is the Holy Spirit who indwells and sanctifies us to be more like Christ. We cannot do it on our own. We must allow ourselves to be controlled by the sway, power, and influence of the Holy Spirit.

www.gotquestions.org

What is the realm of the Spirit (Romans 8:9)? | GotQuestions.org

What is the realm of the Spirit? What is the meaning of Romans 8:9?
www.gotquestions.org
 
Red Baker said:
I'm coming back to make a separate post for this. I've been debating men like you for fifty years, there's nothing you can present that I have not seen or dealt with, I do not believe, but, you can test me to see, that's your right.
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That's sad that you have hardened your heart in the deception of Calvinism for 50 years.

At that point there's probably not much I can do any more.

If there is a tiny glimmer of humility in your heart and willingness to listen, read this explanation of why Calvinism is wrong:

Dizerner

Post in thread 'The Gospel Of Salvation'

@brightfame52 @Kermos @Presby02

*Why Calvinism is a bad thing and I reject it as false.*

I reject Calvinism for a lot of sound reasons (that I explain later on below), but I found many people gravitate towards the wrong reasons for rejecting Calvinism where in fact the Calvinist is actually more correct than they are; this muddies the waters, because then it becomes a partial confused truth, and one error trying to correct another. So first are the 2 reasons I do NOT reject Calvinism, followed by the 5 reasons I DO.

_1. Calvinism is not wrong because God does not have...
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Eternally-Grateful said:
I would say faith is not an act at all. it is something internal.

In faith we do this or that

I E what we trust (faith) causes our actions.

But in the vase of salvation, it is still not an action or a means of salvation.

Paul said it is by grace we have been saved. Period

But through faith, in other words, if I trust God, i will react and recieve this grace gift.

If I do not trust god. I will not react and recieve this grace gift. I will reject it in unbeliever, I will deny it in unbelief. Or in unbelief I will try to earn it by doing works (because my faith is in myself not God)
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This is interesting.

You say "period" as if that ends it, but then you go on with more things, lol.

THROUGH faith seems kind of a bid deal here, since grace alone would eliminate free will, right.

Then I notice you say "faith is not an act" but in your last sentence you say we must "react and receive"

To react, to act again, is to act in response to something, so it feels like you say its not an act but it is an act.

We think of actions as only physical external things, but perhaps we could think in terms of "actions of the heart."

I know this may seem pedantic, but I think it has greater implications into some equivocations people make about the word "works."

If the word "works" can possibly mean "actions of the heart," we need to distinguish that between "works of the Law."
 
Dizerner said:
This is interesting.

You say "period" as if that ends it, but then you go on with more things, lol.

THROUGH faith seems kind of a bid deal here, since grace alone would eliminate free will, right.
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No
Dizerner said:
Then I notice you say "faith is not an act" but in your last sentence you say we must "react and receive"

To react, to act again, is to act in response to something, so it feels like you say its not an act but it is an act.

We think of actions as only physical external things, but perhaps we could think in terms of "actions of the heart."

I know this may seem pedantic, but I think it has greater implications into some equivocations people make about the word "works."

If the word "works" can possibly mean "actions of the heart," we need to distinguish that between "works of the Law."
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You react because of faith

We are saved by grace through faith not of works lest anyone should boast
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
No

You react because of faith

We are saved by grace through faith not of works lest anyone should boast
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Yes, in most cases Paul does clarify "works of the Law." In a few places he shortens it to just works.

But the word "works" is also used for miracles, as in Jesus "did not do many mighty works."

Is the passage saying we are not saved "of miracles"? I think most would disagree with that.

My hypothesis here is that a lot of people overextend the meaning of works to beyond just "works of Law."

How would you define works in detail?
 
brightfame52 said:
Thats the New Birth. No spiritual choices until and after being born again, thats what grace and power Christs death merited for the elect.
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We are saved by grace through faith not of works lest anyone should boast.

Can you possibly understand what this says?

It says we are saved by grace through faith. IOW while we are believing, not before. If we had not faith.. then we could not be saved through it.

I did not say this, Paul did.
 

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