An Article on free will

[MTMattie]

The natural man cannot hear spiritually and understand Matt 13:23

Then I guess we ( @praise_yeshua , @civic and myself among most within the Christian true believers ) are not natural man. For we DO understand that which you cannot. Therefore our spirits trump you.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

RIGHT! As we ( see above) do

Man naturally doesnt understand Rom 3:11

There you go repeating again...

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

And again............... But is becoming increasingly apparent you either are seeking after those to show you the way or you are wanting to pull whoever you can away from their connection to Jesus Christ, "OUR" messiah, who is the son of God and also the God within the Trinity.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT??????????????/

Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, also God within the trinity (And this is important to understand why?????????, do a little homework and put your brain to use before you answer) and was born to a woman called Mary, a virgin, and he suffered and bled and died for US who believe in him without question.

YOU question this one we worship. I would be very careful to say he was a different Savior then you wordship.

 

[civic]

The natural man cannot hear spiritually and understand Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Man naturally doesnt understand Rom 3:11

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

As Jesus said to the Samaritan

John 4:22- You worship what you do not know

 

[Kermos]

Ever heard the phrase "free will is not in the Bible?" This is a misleading assertion made by many, as if only a certain specificity of statement can communicate an idea. But I do not accept the Trinity because it is explicitly declared in Scripture, but rather that it is in inevitable deduction from the stated data. Thus there is no shame or wrong in any idea not being stated as clearly as it could possibly be stated, when it can be clearly deduced. Hence, the philosophical notion of libertarian freedom is under the same umbrella, for just as the Trinity is deduced from Scripture logically, and not explicitly stated, so libertarian free will can also be conclusively deduced from Scripture.

First let's talk a little about what libertarian free will is not—

1. It's not the ability to do absolutely anything.
2. It's not the guarantee of no influencing forces (as long as not completely coercive).
3. It's not the ability to produce self-righteousness (falls under a specific instance of #1).
4. It is not randomness (this straw man caricature would mean choice is not under control of an agent).

Free will is the limited ability to select between certain limited options as ordained and circumscribed by God's created order. Just as the Trinity can be deduced from whatever passages you want to cite, so true autonomous decision can be from this passage (as well as hundreds of others, but one passage is sufficient and a good example). So let's take a fairly mundane seeming passage and extrapolate the ideas it contains.

3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, "Indeed you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man's wife."
4 But Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, "Lord, will You slay a righteous nation also?
5 "Did he not say to me,`She is my sister '? And she, even she herself said,`He is my brother.' In the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands I have done this."
6 And God said to him in a dream, "Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.
7 "Now therefore, restore the man's wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours." (Gen 20:3-7 NKJ)

We have to set this up so bear with me. At first God says to Abimelech that he is a dead man because he has sinned. Abimelech answers and implies that this is too harsh a judgment in the light of his current limitations of understanding the situation. Abimelech then declares he is innocent. In verse 6, God does not say Abimelech is wrong, but rather affirms that Abimelech is actually correct on this issue. He has done this "in the integrity" of his heart. Then God says he has somehow kept Abimelech from sinning so far as an act of mercy because of ignorance. But now Abimelech is no longer considered ignorant, as he has been warned, so we end with verse 7 in which God lays out two different outcomes that are both indicated to be a real possibility and determined by the choice Abimelech makes.

Honesty is an attribute of God, and honesty in communication is necessary if you want to be understood in the way you intend to say something. "God is not a man that he should lie," says the Divine. That is, in general, if you wish to convey information and not mislead someone, you actually have to mean what you say. We cannot claim Abimelech would understand this passage in any deterministic way, and if determinism were true it would not be beyond the capacity of God to phrase this in a deterministic way, or even to explain that Abimelech actually has no libertarian choice in the matter and there are not two real, viable outcomes as God indicated, where Abimelech either "surely dies" or he will in fact "live." Although he was declared dead already, this indicates he had a pending "death sentence," or ban, on him.

Now the truth about determinism is a sneaky one, because no matter how you phrase something to sound like autonomy, you can always just claim it only sounds that way as some kind of illusion. But the default position of any text should not to be take the plain meaning as an illusion, but to take it as meaning what it says, unless we have strong overriding context. With proponents of determinism, a small percentage of Bible verses that could possibly be interpreted as deterministic are used as an overriding lens to reinterpret a much, much larger majority percentage of thousands of passages that are made to sound deliberately as if choice were two or more actual outcomes decided by the individual, instead of pre-decided by God.

And this overriding presupposition becomes so second nature to the Calvinist, that, in my interaction with determinists anyway, they almost always seem to think it's the natural way to interpret choices in Scripture as necessarily deterministic, when that's actually not the default way to understand them.

If God wanted to convey a deterministic meaning of any kind to Abimelech it would have been easy, simple and clear to simply phrase what God says to Abimelech in a deterministic way, "I have chosen you to sin," or "you will go on and do what I have decided for you to do," or "you must fulfill your destiny and this is what it will be." God does not choose any of those easy options which would be honest and clear, to phrase something deliberately in a way that sounds non-deterministic, and this is not by any definition the honest way of communicating. Abimelech, if Calvinism were true, would have been misled by God.

So although we have verses where Jesus says "the only true God" in reference to his Father, we take the higher percentage of verses and reinterpret the lower percentage of verses, to justify our interpretation that Jesus himself is the only true God as well. In the same way Scripture actually ends up directly supporting the idea of libertarian freedom, instead of directly opposing the idea of libertarian freedom, as many Calvinists contend.

So by using the exact same "hermeneutics" we would use to come to a deduction of the Trinity, we come with this consistent and predominantly used method of interpreting the Bible, to describing choices as multiple potential outcomes determined by the agent.

A Calvinist cannot "walk through the text" when reading from "the original Hebrew" and stay a consistent exhaustive divine determinist in Genesis chapter 20.

Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your free-will saying "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Regarding Genesis 20:3-7, your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) is your marginalizing, even eliminating, the Word of God "I did not let you touch her." (Genesis 20:6). God declares God's control of Abimelech's heart, even when Abimelech was unaware that Sarah was Abraham’s wife and of Abimelech's sin that would have resulted from Abimelech lying with Abraham’s wife, so no Word of God states Abimelech free-will chose toward God in the passage. It is written "The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes" (Proverbs 21:1).

The Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) preserves the lineage of Lord Jesus Christ through Abraham and Sarah as recorded in Genesis 20:3-7! Hallelujah!

Your lack of discernment remains evident.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GIVER OF LIFE AND UNDERSTANDING!!!

 

[Dizerner]

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your free-will

Calvinists and Free Gracers make the same fundamental logical mistake, this is why they both accuse each other of back loading works. They insist that if action X produces result Y that necessarily means it was merited. This is a non sequitur. There is such a thing as a non meritorious work, an action that produces a result without earning it, such as receiving a gift. Now despite arguing this, Free Grace believes in real Free Will and so allows a "one little bitty mini-work" of free will acceptance of the Gospel message (unless you are a Calvinist Free Gracer of course, usually called Sovereign Grace to distinguish). And if the Free Gracer allows it for their one initial fire and forget, one and done, mini-work, then they are being self-contradictory to their own position, because a free will acceptance contradicts their inserted assumption, their presupposition, that contingent actions are necessarily being done as an attempt to merit. They've done gone and earned their salvation with the "work" of accepting Christ through free will!

So the Calvinist responds (generally), "What makes you different than the person who chose not to accept Christ? Are you smarter, wiser and holier than your fellow man? Then you are boasting in your works, what you've chosen." That free will decision is something you DO, it's an act of the WILL, it's an action. By the exact same logic being used, this must necessarily be a work added to the merit of Christ, no matter how small, and it is dependent upon what the person does (acceptance). And indeed, if you've spent any time with hardcore Calvinists, you will find them arguing this exact same logic with Free Gracers, that the Free Gracers try to use against them, in a strange twist of ironic fate, since they are both making the same logical error—that an action resulting in a response necessarily has to be an attempt at meriting it.

You can try to say "but faith is not a work," to get out of the fact that faith is a decision we actually do, a choice we make, however you are special pleading, and using something that fits the exact same definition of others things you critique as "works." In actual fact Paul means "Works of the Law" specifically when he speaks of not being saved by works, not just all works in general no matter what the word works means. "Works" means "miracles" too, and Paul does not mean we are not saved by miracles, so there is equivocation about the word "works." One could just as well rebut "sanctification isn't a work, either," if it is a non-meritorious condition to receiving an undeserved gift. If someone tells me "clap your hands and I'll give you a million dollars," that does not logically force that I actually earned the million with clapping, there has to be an attempt at contributing equal value. Receiving the gift does not earn the gift, yet something must be done—reach out, grab it, unwrap it, use it—if you define all that as "works salvation," then logically you MUST eliminate ALL free will altogether as that will be the only PURE form of grace, eliminating ALL works (under that false definition), and having God actually and truly "do it all."

And so we see that we can have Jesus merit our salvation for us and still put requirements on us for receiving it, without running into any contradiction or logical dilemma, as this is a conditional payment, a payment fully made, undeserved, yet still with conditions added (even if just a basic "yes" to Jesus' free gift at a minimum). Otherwise Free Gracers are self-contradicting when you accuse others of works salvation while allowing their own free will decision to be the effective agent in procuring Christ's salvation. As a Calvinist you can just eliminate Free Will altogether to try to fix that problem, but intuitively we know we make actual choices to believe on Jesus and they are not forced on us by God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Calvinists and Free Gracers make the same fundamental logical mistake, this is why they both accuse each other of back loading works. They insist that if action X produces result Y that necessarily means it was merited. This is a non sequitur. There is such a thing as a non meritorious work, an action that produces a result without earning it, such as receiving a gift. Now despite arguing this, Free Grace believes in real Free Will and so allows a "one little bitty mini-work" of free will acceptance of the Gospel message (unless you are a Calvinist Free Gracer of course, usually called Sovereign Grace to distinguish). And if the Free Gracer allows it for their one initial fire and forget, one and done, mini-work, then they are being self-contradictory to their own position, because a free will acceptance contradicts their inserted assumption, their presupposition, that contingent actions are necessarily being done as an attempt to merit. They've done gone and earned their salvation with the "work" of accepting Christ through free will!

So the Calvinist responds (generally), "What makes you different than the person who chose not to accept Christ? Are you smarter, wiser and holier than your fellow man? Then you are boasting in your works, what you've chosen." That free will decision is something you DO, it's an act of the WILL, it's an action. By the exact same logic being used, this must necessarily be a work added to the merit of Christ, no matter how small, and it is dependent upon what the person does (acceptance). And indeed, if you've spent any time with hardcore Calvinists, you will find them arguing this exact same logic with Free Gracers, that the Free Gracers try to use against them, in a strange twist of ironic fate, since they are both making the same logical error—that an action resulting in a response necessarily has to be an attempt at meriting it.

You can try to say "but faith is not a work," to get out of the fact that faith is a decision we actually do, a choice we make, however you are special pleading, and using something that fits the exact same definition of others things you critique as "works." In actual fact Paul means "Works of the Law" specifically when he speaks of not being saved by works, not just all works in general no matter what the word works means. "Works" means "miracles" too, and Paul does not mean we are not saved by miracles, so there is equivocation about the word "works." One could just as well rebut "sanctification isn't a work, either," if it is a non-meritorious condition to receiving an undeserved gift. If someone tells me "clap your hands and I'll give you a million dollars," that does not logically force that I actually earned the million with clapping, there has to be an attempt at contributing equal value. Receiving the gift does not earn the gift, yet something must be done—reach out, grab it, unwrap it, use it—if you define all that as "works salvation," then logically you MUST eliminate ALL free will altogether as that will be the only PURE form of grace, eliminating ALL works (under that false definition), and having God actually and truly "do it all."

And so we see that we can have Jesus merit our salvation for us and still put requirements on us for receiving it, without running into any contradiction or logical dilemma, as this is a conditional payment, a payment fully made, undeserved, yet still with conditions added (even if just a basic "yes" to Jesus' free gift at a minimum). Otherwise Free Gracers are self-contradicting when you accuse others of works salvation while allowing their own free will decision to be the effective agent in procuring Christ's salvation. As a Calvinist you can just eliminate Free Will altogether to try to fix that problem, but intuitively we know we make actual choices to believe on Jesus and they are not forced on us by God.

The value of Eternal life can never be merited by anything thing less than the "gifter" of Eternal life. Him alone. He sets the requirements for obtaining Eternal Life.

Our faith rests in the merits of another. Jesus Christ Alone.

 

[civic]

Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your free-will saying "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Regarding Genesis 20:3-7, your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) is your marginalizing, even eliminating, the Word of God "I did not let you touch her." (Genesis 20:6). God declares God's control of Abimelech's heart, even when Abimelech was unaware that Sarah was Abraham’s wife and of Abimelech's sin that would have resulted from Abimelech lying with Abraham’s wife, so no Word of God states Abimelech free-will chose toward God in the passage. It is written "The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes" (Proverbs 21:1).

The Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) preserves the lineage of Lord Jesus Christ through Abraham and Sarah as recorded in Genesis 20:3-7! Hallelujah!

Your lack of discernment remains evident.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GIVER OF LIFE AND UNDERSTANDING!!!

As Jesus said to the Samaritan. You are in the same boat. Another jesus, another god, another gospel.

John 4:22- You worship what you do not know

Fatalism ( your beliefs )is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

Repeating the same heresy doesn’t change anything as the readers can clearly see your view is unsubstantiated by Jesus as I have demonstrated.

hope this helps !!!

The natural man cannot hear spiritually and understand Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Man naturally doesnt understand Rom 3:11

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[brightfame52]

Then I guess we ( @praise_yeshua , @civic and myself among most within the Christian true believers ) are not natural man. For we DO understand that which you cannot. Therefore our spirits trump you.


RIGHT! As we ( see above) do


There you go repeating again...


And again............... But is becoming increasingly apparent you either are seeking after those to show you the way or you are wanting to pull whoever you can away from their connection to Jesus Christ, "OUR" messiah, who is the son of God and also the God within the Trinity.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT??????????????/

Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, also God within the trinity (And this is important to understand why?????????, do a little homework and put your brain to use before you answer) and was born to a woman called Mary, a virgin, and he suffered and bled and died for US who believe in him without question.

YOU question this one we worship. I would be very careful to say he was a different Savior then you wordship.

The natural man cannot hear spiritually and understand Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Man naturally doesnt understand Rom 3:11

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[civic]

The natural man cannot hear spiritually and understand Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Man naturally doesnt understand Rom 3:11

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

As Jesus said to the Samaritan. You are in the same boat. Another jesus, another god, another gospel.

John 4:22- You worship what you do not know

Fatalism ( your beliefs )is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

hope this helps !!!

 

[MTMattie]

Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your free-will saying "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Regarding Genesis 20:3-7, your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) is your marginalizing, even eliminating, the Word of God "I did not let you touch her." (Genesis 20:6). God declares God's control of Abimelech's heart, even when Abimelech was unaware that Sarah was Abraham’s wife and of Abimelech's sin that would have resulted from Abimelech lying with Abraham’s wife, so no Word of God states Abimelech free-will chose toward God in the passage. It is written "The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes" (Proverbs 21:1).

The Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) preserves the lineage of Lord Jesus Christ through Abraham and Sarah as recorded in Genesis 20:3-7! Hallelujah!

Your lack of discernment remains evident.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GIVER OF LIFE AND UNDERSTANDING!!!

Everything you have quoted. Every example you make is not God the Father or God the Son's selection of everyone that are predestined.

It is a select few.

And for that reason I say that predestineation was not for everyone, but became something in the grand plan of things.

Start with

"You believe you buy your way into heaven with your free-will saying "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).
JOHN 15:16-17 16 “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

Which disciple volunteered to be an apostle of Jesus?
None of them: “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you" (John 15:16).

Not everyone has been chosen. Not everyone has been predestined. But only those who

The natural man cannot hear spiritually and understand Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Man naturally doesnt understand Rom 3:11

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

A copy and paste on a loop....

And the cherry on the sundae is a self proclaiming avatar

 

[Kermos]

Calvinists and Free Gracers make the same fundamental logical mistake, this is why they both accuse each other of back loading works. They insist that if action X produces result Y that necessarily means it was merited. This is a non sequitur. There is such a thing as a non meritorious work, an action that produces a result without earning it, such as receiving a gift. Now despite arguing this, Free Grace believes in real Free Will and so allows a "one little bitty mini-work" of free will acceptance of the Gospel message (unless you are a Calvinist Free Gracer of course, usually called Sovereign Grace to distinguish). And if the Free Gracer allows it for their one initial fire and forget, one and done, mini-work, then they are being self-contradictory to their own position, because a free will acceptance contradicts their inserted assumption, their presupposition, that contingent actions are necessarily being done as an attempt to merit. They've done gone and earned their salvation with the "work" of accepting Christ through free will!

So the Calvinist responds (generally), "What makes you different than the person who chose not to accept Christ? Are you smarter, wiser and holier than your fellow man? Then you are boasting in your works, what you've chosen." That free will decision is something you DO, it's an act of the WILL, it's an action. By the exact same logic being used, this must necessarily be a work added to the merit of Christ, no matter how small, and it is dependent upon what the person does (acceptance). And indeed, if you've spent any time with hardcore Calvinists, you will find them arguing this exact same logic with Free Gracers, that the Free Gracers try to use against them, in a strange twist of ironic fate, since they are both making the same logical error—that an action resulting in a response necessarily has to be an attempt at meriting it.

You can try to say "but faith is not a work," to get out of the fact that faith is a decision we actually do, a choice we make, however you are special pleading, and using something that fits the exact same definition of others things you critique as "works." In actual fact Paul means "Works of the Law" specifically when he speaks of not being saved by works, not just all works in general no matter what the word works means. "Works" means "miracles" too, and Paul does not mean we are not saved by miracles, so there is equivocation about the word "works." One could just as well rebut "sanctification isn't a work, either," if it is a non-meritorious condition to receiving an undeserved gift. If someone tells me "clap your hands and I'll give you a million dollars," that does not logically force that I actually earned the million with clapping, there has to be an attempt at contributing equal value. Receiving the gift does not earn the gift, yet something must be done—reach out, grab it, unwrap it, use it—if you define all that as "works salvation," then logically you MUST eliminate ALL free will altogether as that will be the only PURE form of grace, eliminating ALL works (under that false definition), and having God actually and truly "do it all."

And so we see that we can have Jesus merit our salvation for us and still put requirements on us for receiving it, without running into any contradiction or logical dilemma, as this is a conditional payment, a payment fully made, undeserved, yet still with conditions added (even if just a basic "yes" to Jesus' free gift at a minimum). Otherwise Free Gracers are self-contradicting when you accuse others of works salvation while allowing their own free will decision to be the effective agent in procuring Christ's salvation. As a Calvinist you can just eliminate Free Will altogether to try to fix that problem, but intuitively we know we make actual choices to believe on Jesus and they are not forced on us by God.

You do not choose Lord Jesus Christ under any circumstance despite your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) dedication to free-will because the Christ of us Christians declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so your free-willian philosophy saying "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation" indicates that you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the useless traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GOD MOST HIGH!!!

 

[brightfame52]

As Jesus said to the Samaritan. You are in the same boat. Another jesus, another god, another gospel.

John 4:22- You worship what you do not know

Fatalism ( your beliefs )is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

hope this helps !!!

The natural man cannot hear spiritually and understand Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Man naturally doesnt understand Rom 3:11

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[Dizerner]

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the useless traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

Free will is what Scripture teaches.

Choose ye this day.

 

[brightfame52]

Free will is what Scripture teaches.

Choose ye this day.

Where does that say anything about freewill ?

 

[Dizerner]

Where does that say anything about freewill ?

Choose is a meaningless word without it, it has no definitional content.

Inherent with the word's meaning is volition.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Freewill

John 3: 16 For God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his only begotten son that WHOEVER believe in him will NEVER PERISH, but LIVE FOREVER
For the son was not sent to judge THE WORLD. but that the world MIGHT (have the opportunity) to be saved.

 

[civic]

Free will is what Scripture teaches.

Choose ye this day.

Robots cannot choose they are preprogrammed

 

[Jay]

Robots cannot choose they are preprogrammed

And if Satan is the programmer

laying on of hands

along with some instance prayer

may be in order.

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
1 PETER 5:8

 

[TibiasDad]

Jesus never said to Nicodemus, expect YOU be born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God....But except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God! A huge different one that drives the interpretation of this discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus for us to understand its context.

“Soi” is a second person singular pronoun, meaning Jesus’s words were directed specifically at Nicodemus. “Tis” refers to anyone in general, which would necessarily include Nicodemus. In other words, Jesus said to Nicodemus, ‘unless you or anyone else is born again, you or anyone else cannot see the Kingdom of God.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Man naturally is spiritually dead to God, he is in the flesh. Now natural man has faith and trust generated for a god of his understanding, but that's worthless to God, because its of the flesh, which cannot please God as Spirit generated Faith does,

Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

None of the religious , sincere efforts of the unregenerate in the flesh, can please the True God,
However the Faith that comes with regeneration, pleases God Heb 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

This Faith pleases God because its from God, the Spirit.

The Spirit makes a person alive to the True God, otherwise, dead in the flesh, that faith is worthless and dead to God, and cannot please God

Faith is not a work of the law; it is the antithesis of works. To trust or not trust is the same whether toward natural or spiritual objects!

Doug