civic
Well-known member
Exactly brother
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Do you have the natural ability to trust in other areas of your life? Can you trust your family members, your spouse, your co-workers?
Doug
brightfame52
Well-known member
This isnt about anything natural, the natural and the spiritual are separate, man is alive naturally while he is naturally alive, but man is spiritually dead , by nature, and has no spiritual life, fruit of activity spiritually.
Fidelity = Faith with respect to the Greek word πίστις (Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com); therefore, the exact concept is faith in:
the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
(Galatians 5:22-23)
Therefore, faith in Jesus whom the Father has sent is a Fruit of the Spirit without ever being your deed of the flesh, TibiasDad, for the King of Glory declares “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).
By using your word "fidelity" instead of faith, then we find you living in infidelity to the Holy Spirit's fruit in your claim that your fidelity/faith is a deed of your flesh.
Let's return to where we left off in post #4,912. You believe you buy your way into heaven with your free-will saying "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE PROVIDER OF FAITH AND UNDERSTANDING!!!
brightfame52
Well-known member
@Kermos
Amen, Faith or belief of the Truth follows Sanctification of the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
The word belief here is the same greek noun 4102 for Faith Pistis, and as you can see it follows the work of the Spirit confirming that it is the fruit of the Spirit of Gal 5:22
Amen, Faith or belief of the Truth follows Sanctification of the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
The word belief here is the same greek noun 4102 for Faith Pistis, and as you can see it follows the work of the Spirit confirming that it is the fruit of the Spirit of Gal 5:22
You wrote "Notice what comes first 1- Repent , turn away from sin" regarding Ezekiel 18:30-32, but you missed the first which is the Sovereign LORD (Ezekiel 18:30) establishing the rule regarding Israel with "I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD (Ezekiel 18:30).
In the Israelites own ways, they failed to repent which means they failed to get a new heart and a new spirit.
Ezekiel 18:30-32 is absent of your Free-willian Philosophy.
In John 1:12-13, you reverse the order to suit your faulty Free-willian Philosophy. Let's get the full paragraph which the Apostle John wrote visible for accurate context:
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
(John 1:9-13)
Let's follow John's blessed chain linking these people:
- John starts with the full population of the planet "He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him" (John 1:10) as he builds toward the source of holiness which is "born of God" (John 1:13).
- John narrows the population to Israel only "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him" (John 1:11).
- John further narrows the focus to a sub-population of Israel "but as many as received Him" (John 1:12)
- John equates the population of "but as many as received Him" (John 1:12) with the population of "children of God" (John 1:12) as he builds toward the source of holiness, that is, "born of God" (John 1:13).
- John further equates the population of "children of God" (John 1:12) with the population of "believe in His name" increasing tempo about the source of holiness being"born of God" (John 1:13).
- John arrives at the source of holiness for every single one of us saints (holy ones) which is being "born of God" (John 1:13).
John's Good Message (Gospel) narrows the focus then he further narrows the focus then he further narrows the focus then further narrowing onward, so we can expand the focus starting with John's primary narrowest foundational point moving toward the secondary larger point and then the tertiary broader point and so on.
John's primary foundational point is "born of God" (John 1:13, John 3:3-8) which results in John's secondary point of "believe in His name" (John 1:12, John 6:29) and "children of God" (John 1:12, John 3:3-8) and "many as received Him" (John 1:12, John 9) which has implications for John's tertiary point "His own did not receive Him" (John 1:11) which arrives at John's opening, broadest point which is the fact that "born of God" (John 1:13, John 3:3-8) does not include everybody in "the world" (John 1:10).
John has the "born of God" as the first and primary position, so John is in accord with Lord Jesus, the Christ of us Christians, who puts the new birth "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) before belief in the same dialog (see John 3:16), and Lord Jesus leaves no latitude for man free-will choosing to believe by concluding the dialog with “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21).
Therefore, your Free-willian UnBiblical Order of Salvation (see proof post #2,495) is anti-truth for the Christ says “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so every Christian's belief is the work of God.
See “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (the Word of God, Matthew 11:25) and post #2,121 for Holy Scripture which states repentance is imparted into man by our Christian's kind God, so man does not cause himself to repent. Free-willian Philosophy dictates the man causes himself to repent thus free-willians deny the Word of God.
It is really very ugly that you keep calling Lord Jesus Christ your wicked "fatal", a.k.a. "death", and no Christian applies death to Lord Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus Christ is Life!
Free-willian hearts makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GIVER OF EVERLASTING LIFE!!!
civic
Well-known member
Wrong faith precedes the new birth through the word of God- faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ- Rom 10:17
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit
John 1:12-13
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believe in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God
conclusion: Fatalistic hearts make false statements about God and man. Fatalism is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
hope this helps !!!
Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God (John 1:14) blesses us Christians by causing us to be born of the Holy Spirit and causing us to believe the Good News of Christ (Romans 10:17; 1 Peter 1:23; James 1:18; Titus 3:5; John 1:12-13) for our Wonderful Leader Jesus says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), but you reject the Word of God with your free-will saying "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation".
The Apostle Paul (Romans 10:17; Titus 3:5) and the Apostle Peter (1 Peter 1:23) and the brother of Jesus named James (James 1:18) and the Apostle John (John 1:12-13) all are in accord with the Word of God who declares Himself the complete cause of us Christians coming to and living in Christ with "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6).
You wrote "hope this helps", yet it is really very ugly that you keep calling Lord Jesus Christ your wicked "fatal", a.k.a. "death", and no Christian applies death to Lord Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus Christ is Life!
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE WORD OF GOD!!!
civic
Well-known member
nice try I'm saying you are not Jesus.
Jesus was not a fatalist-you are.
hope this helps !!!
I am a follower of Lord Jesus Christ, so you calling me a "fatalist" means that you are calling my Leader Jesus your wicked "fatal", a.k.a. "death", and no Christian applies death to Lord Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus Christ is Life!
Your Free-willian UnBiblical Order of Salvation (see proof post #2,495) is anti-truth for the loving Christ of us Christians opens our ears to hear the Word of God in Truth (John 14:6):
And looking up to heaven, He sighed deeply and said to him, "Ephphatha!" (which means, "Be opened!"). Immediately the man’s ears were opened and his tongue was released, and he began to speak plainly.
(Mark 7:34-35)
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE ONE WHO OPENS THE EARS OF THE DEAF!!!
civic
Well-known member
More projecting
Dizerner
Member
Ever heard the phrase "free will is not in the Bible?" This is a misleading assertion made by many, as if only a certain specificity of statement can communicate an idea. But I do not accept the Trinity because it is explicitly declared in Scripture, but rather that it is in inevitable deduction from the stated data. Thus there is no shame or wrong in any idea not being stated as clearly as it could possibly be stated, when it can be clearly deduced. Hence, the philosophical notion of libertarian freedom is under the same umbrella, for just as the Trinity is deduced from Scripture logically, and not explicitly stated, so libertarian free will can also be conclusively deduced from Scripture.
First let's talk a little about what libertarian free will is not—
1. It's not the ability to do absolutely anything.
2. It's not the guarantee of no influencing forces (as long as not completely coercive).
3. It's not the ability to produce self-righteousness (falls under a specific instance of #1).
4. It is not randomness (this straw man caricature would mean choice is not under control of an agent).
Free will is the limited ability to select between certain limited options as ordained and circumscribed by God's created order. Just as the Trinity can be deduced from whatever passages you want to cite, so true autonomous decision can be from this passage (as well as hundreds of others, but one passage is sufficient and a good example). So let's take a fairly mundane seeming passage and extrapolate the ideas it contains.
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, "Indeed you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man's wife."
4 But Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, "Lord, will You slay a righteous nation also?
5 "Did he not say to me,`She is my sister '? And she, even she herself said,`He is my brother.' In the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands I have done this."
6 And God said to him in a dream, "Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.
7 "Now therefore, restore the man's wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours." (Gen 20:3-7 NKJ)
We have to set this up so bear with me. At first God says to Abimelech that he is a dead man because he has sinned. Abimelech answers and implies that this is too harsh a judgment in the light of his current limitations of understanding the situation. Abimelech then declares he is innocent. In verse 6, God does not say Abimelech is wrong, but rather affirms that Abimelech is actually correct on this issue. He has done this "in the integrity" of his heart. Then God says he has somehow kept Abimelech from sinning so far as an act of mercy because of ignorance. But now Abimelech is no longer considered ignorant, as he has been warned, so we end with verse 7 in which God lays out two different outcomes that are both indicated to be a real possibility and determined by the choice Abimelech makes.
Honesty is an attribute of God, and honesty in communication is necessary if you want to be understood in the way you intend to say something. "God is not a man that he should lie," says the Divine. That is, in general, if you wish to convey information and not mislead someone, you actually have to mean what you say. We cannot claim Abimelech would understand this passage in any deterministic way, and if determinism were true it would not be beyond the capacity of God to phrase this in a deterministic way, or even to explain that Abimelech actually has no libertarian choice in the matter and there are not two real, viable outcomes as God indicated, where Abimelech either "surely dies" or he will in fact "live." Although he was declared dead already, this indicates he had a pending "death sentence," or ban, on him.
Now the truth about determinism is a sneaky one, because no matter how you phrase something to sound like autonomy, you can always just claim it only sounds that way as some kind of illusion. But the default position of any text should not to be take the plain meaning as an illusion, but to take it as meaning what it says, unless we have strong overriding context. With proponents of determinism, a small percentage of Bible verses that could possibly be interpreted as deterministic are used as an overriding lens to reinterpret a much, much larger majority percentage of thousands of passages that are made to sound deliberately as if choice were two or more actual outcomes decided by the individual, instead of pre-decided by God.
And this overriding presupposition becomes so second nature to the Calvinist, that, in my interaction with determinists anyway, they almost always seem to think it's the natural way to interpret choices in Scripture as necessarily deterministic, when that's actually not the default way to understand them.
If God wanted to convey a deterministic meaning of any kind to Abimelech it would have been easy, simple and clear to simply phrase what God says to Abimelech in a deterministic way, "I have chosen you to sin," or "you will go on and do what I have decided for you to do," or "you must fulfill your destiny and this is what it will be." God does not choose any of those easy options which would be honest and clear, to phrase something deliberately in a way that sounds non-deterministic, and this is not by any definition the honest way of communicating. Abimelech, if Calvinism were true, would have been misled by God.
So although we have verses where Jesus says "the only true God" in reference to his Father, we take the higher percentage of verses and reinterpret the lower percentage of verses, to justify our interpretation that Jesus himself is the only true God as well. In the same way Scripture actually ends up directly supporting the idea of libertarian freedom, instead of directly opposing the idea of libertarian freedom, as many Calvinists contend.
So by using the exact same "hermeneutics" we would use to come to a deduction of the Trinity, we come with this consistent and predominantly used method of interpreting the Bible, to describing choices as multiple potential outcomes determined by the agent.
A Calvinist cannot "walk through the text" when reading from "the original Hebrew" and stay a consistent exhaustive divine determinist in Genesis chapter 20.
First let's talk a little about what libertarian free will is not—
1. It's not the ability to do absolutely anything.
2. It's not the guarantee of no influencing forces (as long as not completely coercive).
3. It's not the ability to produce self-righteousness (falls under a specific instance of #1).
4. It is not randomness (this straw man caricature would mean choice is not under control of an agent).
Free will is the limited ability to select between certain limited options as ordained and circumscribed by God's created order. Just as the Trinity can be deduced from whatever passages you want to cite, so true autonomous decision can be from this passage (as well as hundreds of others, but one passage is sufficient and a good example). So let's take a fairly mundane seeming passage and extrapolate the ideas it contains.
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, "Indeed you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man's wife."
4 But Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, "Lord, will You slay a righteous nation also?
5 "Did he not say to me,`She is my sister '? And she, even she herself said,`He is my brother.' In the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands I have done this."
6 And God said to him in a dream, "Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.
7 "Now therefore, restore the man's wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours." (Gen 20:3-7 NKJ)
We have to set this up so bear with me. At first God says to Abimelech that he is a dead man because he has sinned. Abimelech answers and implies that this is too harsh a judgment in the light of his current limitations of understanding the situation. Abimelech then declares he is innocent. In verse 6, God does not say Abimelech is wrong, but rather affirms that Abimelech is actually correct on this issue. He has done this "in the integrity" of his heart. Then God says he has somehow kept Abimelech from sinning so far as an act of mercy because of ignorance. But now Abimelech is no longer considered ignorant, as he has been warned, so we end with verse 7 in which God lays out two different outcomes that are both indicated to be a real possibility and determined by the choice Abimelech makes.
Honesty is an attribute of God, and honesty in communication is necessary if you want to be understood in the way you intend to say something. "God is not a man that he should lie," says the Divine. That is, in general, if you wish to convey information and not mislead someone, you actually have to mean what you say. We cannot claim Abimelech would understand this passage in any deterministic way, and if determinism were true it would not be beyond the capacity of God to phrase this in a deterministic way, or even to explain that Abimelech actually has no libertarian choice in the matter and there are not two real, viable outcomes as God indicated, where Abimelech either "surely dies" or he will in fact "live." Although he was declared dead already, this indicates he had a pending "death sentence," or ban, on him.
Now the truth about determinism is a sneaky one, because no matter how you phrase something to sound like autonomy, you can always just claim it only sounds that way as some kind of illusion. But the default position of any text should not to be take the plain meaning as an illusion, but to take it as meaning what it says, unless we have strong overriding context. With proponents of determinism, a small percentage of Bible verses that could possibly be interpreted as deterministic are used as an overriding lens to reinterpret a much, much larger majority percentage of thousands of passages that are made to sound deliberately as if choice were two or more actual outcomes decided by the individual, instead of pre-decided by God.
And this overriding presupposition becomes so second nature to the Calvinist, that, in my interaction with determinists anyway, they almost always seem to think it's the natural way to interpret choices in Scripture as necessarily deterministic, when that's actually not the default way to understand them.
If God wanted to convey a deterministic meaning of any kind to Abimelech it would have been easy, simple and clear to simply phrase what God says to Abimelech in a deterministic way, "I have chosen you to sin," or "you will go on and do what I have decided for you to do," or "you must fulfill your destiny and this is what it will be." God does not choose any of those easy options which would be honest and clear, to phrase something deliberately in a way that sounds non-deterministic, and this is not by any definition the honest way of communicating. Abimelech, if Calvinism were true, would have been misled by God.
So although we have verses where Jesus says "the only true God" in reference to his Father, we take the higher percentage of verses and reinterpret the lower percentage of verses, to justify our interpretation that Jesus himself is the only true God as well. In the same way Scripture actually ends up directly supporting the idea of libertarian freedom, instead of directly opposing the idea of libertarian freedom, as many Calvinists contend.
So by using the exact same "hermeneutics" we would use to come to a deduction of the Trinity, we come with this consistent and predominantly used method of interpreting the Bible, to describing choices as multiple potential outcomes determined by the agent.
A Calvinist cannot "walk through the text" when reading from "the original Hebrew" and stay a consistent exhaustive divine determinist in Genesis chapter 20.
MTMattie
Active member
Removed the logos. I was urged to do so.
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God causes me to project more Truth (John 14:6).
Lord Jesus Christ's atonement always succeeds! But, you project your CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT as recorded in post #3,926 of this thread.
The Grace of God always succeeds! But, you project your EARNABLY RESISTIBLE GRACE OF GOD deception as recorded in post #5,496 of this thread.
King Jesus of the Kingdom of God exclusively controls admission into the Kingdom of God for the Glory of God! But you project your free-willian UnBiblical Order of Salvation as recorded in post #2,495 of this thread.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LIVING GOD, JESUS CHRIST!!!
Dizerner
Member
This has got to be a parody account.
civic
Well-known member
You don’t have the truth as a fatalist.
brightfame52
Well-known member
@Kermos
Absolutely Rev 3:7
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Fulfilled Isa 22:22
And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
This shows how Christ has the key, control of who is saved into His Kingdom, and who is not, so much for freewill salvation.
Absolutely Rev 3:7
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Fulfilled Isa 22:22
And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
This shows how Christ has the key, control of who is saved into His Kingdom, and who is not, so much for freewill salvation.
Thank you for quoting John which clearly confirms that one must have actively "received him" and actively "believe in His name" so that "to them He gave the right to become children of God" by being "born...of God".
The heresy of Calvinism (regeneration before belief) just crashed and burned again right before your very eyes.
Will you continue to run away from John's sacred words in typical Calvinist fashion?
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civic
Well-known member
Yes the biblical order you referenced is easy to see for those who have been given eyes to seeThank you for quoting John which clearly confirms that one must have actively "received him" and actively "believe in His name" so that "to them He gave the right to become children of God" by being "born...of God".
The heresy of Calvinism (regeneration before belief) just crashed and burned again right before your very eyes.
Will you continue to run away from John's sacred words in typical Calvinist fashion?
Let's see what lame escape tactic @Kermos will use this time in order to dodge once again John's sacred words.Yes the biblical order you referenced is easy to see for those who have been given eyes to see
