Julie
Member
Hebrews 11:1 tells us that faith is “being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.”
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Yessiree, for the Apostle Paul wrote "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest" (Ephesians 2:3). It's the first/default state of man (1 Corinthians 15:45-48).
In your post #5,521, you highlighted "when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son" (Romans 5:10), do you believe the enemy of God is under the wrath of God until that enemy is reconciled to God along with the person being converted into a friend of God in the Love of God? I do.
Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE BE TO THE CHRIST!!!
more gobblygook and a butchering of the passage. Paul is addressing the elect Jews in the passage with the potter/clay.
next fallacy
Jeremiah 18 RSV- the reformed/calvinist translation
The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will let you hear my words.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was working at his wheel. 4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter’s hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.
1- who spoiled the clay ?
It was the clay,not the potter. The clay was spoiled in the hands of the potter and the potter reworked it into another vessel. This is the context which Paul uses in Romans 9.
Romans 9- Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hose′a,
“Those who were not my people
I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved
I will call ‘my beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
Romans 9 has the elect Jews who are the vessels of destruction and the gentiles as the ones of mercy who were not Gods elect. Through their own rebellion God has called a people who were not His people, the children of God. The potter/clay refutes Calvinism, not supports it. The harden self righteous Jews were rejected by God with a seared conscience. Their rebellion caused a good purpose - the grafting in of the Gentiles.
The condition of the clay and the potter. God declares if you repent then I will not bring upon you these disasters/wrath/judgements.
Jeremiah 18
Then the word of the Lord came to me. 6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
In Romans 9 its the hardened Jew/reprobate is whom Paul prays for in their temporary hardening until all the gentiles are grafted into the branch. The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.
There are no chapters/verses in the original Greek- so here is the context below which reveals the flaws in Fatalism, Determinism, Calvinism's soteriology.
Romans 9:30–32 - What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Romans 10:18–21- But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”
Romans 11:19–23-Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
conclusion: Jeremiah 18:12 (NASB 2020) — 12 But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will persist in the stubbornness of his evil heart.’
It's not the Potter making them stubborn but their own self will
hope this helps !!!
So says the person civic who believes in his Christ's failure atonement as recorded in post #3,926.
The Apostle Paul did not write "who are you, O Jew" (civic 9:20) as you believe, but Paul did write "who are you, O man"
(Romans 9:20), so your preaching is anti-truth.
Furthermore, you believe in your earnably resistible Grace of God as recorded in post #5,496, so you believe anti-truth.
You believe you buy your way into heaven with your free-will saying "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).
You label "gobblygook" the Christ, yet no Christian calls Christ's sayings your "gobblygook".
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD!!!
DavidTree
Well-known member
In your excellent post i SEE one meaning that encompasses more then one application
Faith is also used in Mechanics/Engineering.
The word 'faith' is transcribed as:
a.) reliability
b.) integrity
c.) consistency
Example: Think automotive engineering = Do you have 'faith' in a particular motor/engine design, that it will be: reliable
brightfame52
Well-known member
Its the same word, Faith is the fruit of the Spirit. Faith is a noun in Gal 5 22 if faithfulness was the emphasis there is the adjective for faithful. πιστός Eph 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
In any case its all spiritual fruit, nothing natural
brightfame52
Well-known member
@Kermos
I dont believe that is correct, how can someone Christ died for and propitiated Gods wrath for, be under Gods wrath still ? Also Eph 2:3 never said they were under wrath, the emphasis is they have a wrathful nature against God like we all do by nature. See the unregenerate mind is enmity, hate against God See Col 1:21
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Rom 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
I dont believe that is correct, how can someone Christ died for and propitiated Gods wrath for, be under Gods wrath still ? Also Eph 2:3 never said they were under wrath, the emphasis is they have a wrathful nature against God like we all do by nature. See the unregenerate mind is enmity, hate against God See Col 1:21
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Rom 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
brightfame52
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
You have a false gospel that Jesus disciples/ apostles warned us about.
brightfame52
Well-known member
No everyone is not, not the reconciled to God
civic
Well-known member
The Apostle Paul wrote faith, not faithfulness, in "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith," (Galatians 5:22) because the exact Greek word is πίστις (Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com).
The Greek/English interlinear for Galatians 5:22 is on BibleHub.com via this link, and the noun of πίστις is clearly visible.
Faith is the Fruit of the Holy Spirit of God. Hallelujah!
Man does not point his faith from unbelief to belief in Lord Jesus.
Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE LORD JESUS!!!
civic
Well-known member
Wrong only those who are already born again can have the fruit of the spirit.
Another blunder from your fatalism
brightfame52
Well-known member
False, the elect whom Christ died for are reconciled to God while being enemies in their minds Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
You deny simple, elementary Gospel Truth
civic
Well-known member
ἐχθροί] namely, of God, as is clear from κατηλλ. τῷ Θεῷ. But it is not to be taken in an active sense (hostile to God, as by Rückert, Baur, Reithmayr, van Hengel, Mehring, Ritschl in the Jahrb. f. Deutsche Theol. 1863, p. 515 f.; Weber, vom Zorne Gottes, p. 293, and others); for Christ’s death did not remove the enmity of men against God, but, as that which procured their pardon on the part of God, it did away with the enmity of God against men, and thereupon the cessation of the enmity of men towards God ensued as the moral consequence brought about by faith. And, with that active conception, how could Paul properly have inferred his πολλῷ μᾶλλον κ.τ.λ[1217], since in point of fact the certainty of the (σωθησόμεθα is based on our standing in friendship (grace) with God, and not on our being friendly towards God? Hence the passiveexplanation alone is correct (Calvin and others, including Reiche, Fritzsche, Tholuck, Krehl, Baumgarten-Crusius, de Wette, Philippi, Hofmann): enemies of God, i.e. those against whom the holy θεοσεχθρία, the ὀργή of God on account of sin, is directed; θεοστυγεῖς, Romans 1:30; τέκνα ὀργῆς, Ephesians 2:3. Comp Romans 11:28; and see on Colossians 1:21; comp Pfleiderer in Hilgenfeld’s Zeitschr. 1872, p. 182. This does not contradict the ἀγάπη Θεοῦ praised in Romans 5:8 (as Rückert objects), since the very arrangement, which God made by the death of Jesus for abandoning His enmity against sinful men without detriment to His holiness, was the highest proof of His love for us (not for our sins).
Consequently κατηλλάγημεν and καταλλαγέντες must also be taken not actively, but passively: reconciled with God, so that He is no longer hostile towards us, but has on the contrary, on account of the death of His (beloved) Son, abandoned His wrath against us, and we, on the other hand, have become partakers in His grace and favour; for the positive assertion (comp Romans 5:1 f.), which is applicable to all believing individuals (Romans 5:8), must not be weakened into the negative and general conception “that Christians have not God against them” (Hofmann). See on Colossians 1:21 and on 2 Corinthians 5:18. Tittmann’s distinction between διαλλάττειν and καταλλάττειν (see on Matthew 5:24) is as arbitrary as that of Mehring, who makes the former denote the outward and the latter the inward reconciliation. Against this view, comp also Philippi’s Glaubenslehre, II. 2, p. 270 ff. Meyer
hope this helps !!!
I noticed the word "still" is in your question of "how can someone Christ died for and propitiated Gods wrath for, be under Gods wrath still ?"
I answer this question with, "such a one cannot be saved from the wrath of God and still be under the wrath of God".
I don't understand what led you to that conclusion. Oh, I just found this subsequent post of yours.
Here is a very accurate translation "For if, being enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved in His life" (Romans 5:10).
In Romans 5:10, I referred to the concept of the transition, a.k.a. conversion, from enemy to friend in Christ, but, to be specific, wrath and reconciliation are not simultaneously occurring. In Romans 5:10, one stops being an enemy upon the initiation of God's reconciliation, so there is no overlap.
Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!
brightfame52
Well-known member
the elect whom Christ died for are reconciled to God while being enemies in their minds Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
You deny simple, elementary Gospel Truth
brightfame52
Well-known member
@Kermos
Good catch, but Im thinking about only the non elect will still be under wrath since Christ didn't die for them and propitiate God in their behalf. Now the elect are never under Gods wrath, impossible unless God didnt accept Christs sacrifice for their sins, and we know He did because He raised Him up for their Justification.
The elect are reconciled to God by Christs Death even while they are unconverted and enemies, the reconciliation is solely premised on Christs death, not their spiritual condition.
Good catch, but Im thinking about only the non elect will still be under wrath since Christ didn't die for them and propitiate God in their behalf. Now the elect are never under Gods wrath, impossible unless God didnt accept Christs sacrifice for their sins, and we know He did because He raised Him up for their Justification.
The elect are reconciled to God by Christs Death even while they are unconverted and enemies, the reconciliation is solely premised on Christs death, not their spiritual condition.
I see, so you adulterated faith out of the work of the Holy Spirit of God recorded in Galatians 5:22-23 into your heart's treasure of faith being a deed of the flesh in "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: faith, immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God" (civic 5:19-21).
This means your faith, which you believe is of your flesh, is a practice of people who will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Anyone interested may follow this link to Galatians 5:19-21 on BibleGateway.com for the NASB, KJV, and YLT - the word faith is not in the passage of Galatians 5:19-21, yet the word faith is in the passage of Galatians 5:22-23!
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!
civic
Well-known member
Same ole cut n paste. Sounds like an AI response
