An Article on free will

Now, right back to where we left off previously.

civic said:
The Atonement has no limits, you have a false gospel and make Jesus and the Apostles liars.

...snip
Click to expand...

You believe in your Christ's failure atonement as comprehensively proven below, in Truth (John 14:6).

I do not intend to leave this behind, civic, just like I explained to you previously.

God causes me to visit each and every verse that you quoted in your post.

According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:
  • if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
  • if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
  • The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.
So, you free-willians believe in failure atonement.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Book of Free-willians The Book of John
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world for people like Judas Iscariot and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God!
(civic 1:29)		 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
(John 1:29)

The Book of Free-willians The Book of Hebrews
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he ineffectively suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might ineffectually taste death for everyone like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God.
(civic 2:9)		 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
(Hebrews 2:9)

The Book of Free-willians The Book of Titus
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment
(civic 2:11)		 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
(Titus 2:11)

The Book of Free-willians The Book of Titus
But when the kindness and the love of mankind which includes God-displeasing sin-immersed self-willed under the wrath of God people like Nancy of God our Savior appeared
(civic 3:4)		 But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared
(Titus 3:4)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again.

Lord Jesus says "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:19-20) in the immediately same conversation as John 3:16!

Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The word of civic The Word of God
For God so loved the world like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever loving the darkness hating the Light by self-will choosing to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(civic 3:16)		 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16)
And so go your revilings against the precious Holy Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) as you illegally redefine believe as a work of man instead of the work of God again and again.

Your adulterations continue:
The First Book of Free-willians The First Book of Timothy
Who will have all men to be saved, but God's will fails miserably with saving people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1 civic 2:4)		 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1 Timothy 2:4)

The Second Book of Free-willians The Second Book of Peter
The Lord breaks his promise because he is patient with you people like Nancy of the world who will never be a part of the Body of Christ, not wishing that any should perish but people like Nancy perish without ever coming to repentance.
(2 civic 3:9)		 The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Notice the phrase "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author, the First Book of John inspired by the glorious Holy Spirit.

You brought up 1 John 2:2 which shall be examined in a moment, and the other location is "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one, so everyone except current Christians are included in "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The First Book of Free-willians The First Book of John
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing, Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for ones such as people like Nancy.
(1 civic 2:2)		 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
(1 John 2:2)
So "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 includes exclusively the people that will become Christians believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent before these people die, so "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 has a different meaning than "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, but your heart destroys context for "the whole world", and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Crucially, you quoted where the Apostle declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Second Book of Free-willians The Second Book to the Corinthians
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died and now live in Christ, including people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing
(2 civic 5:14)		 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died
(2 Corinthians 5:14)
And you quoted 2 Corinthians 5:14 without your recognition of "and He died for all, so that those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose on their behalf" (2 Corinthians 5:15) thus your heart's destroy context for 2 Corinthians 5:14, and so goes your confusion about the Holy Scripture again.

We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

You make false statements about God and man (1 John 4:1). Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! THE LORD IS MY SALVATION!!!
 
Kermos said:
You are correct, it "is just basic reading comprehension but even that seems to escape you", so God has me present the explanation again since you request such.

"No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:27), so you cannot know God unless God chooses to enable you to perceive God, and this beautiful knowledge of God comes from being born of God (John 3:3); therefore, God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)!

"No one is good except God alone" (The Word of God, Mark 10:18), so man is evil thus incapable of doing the good of perceiving the awesome righteousness of God unless man's perception results from man being born of God (John 3:3); therefore, God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)!

"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him" (The Way, Matthew 7:11), so the Christ told His disciples that His disciples are evil, yet the Son chose to reveal the Father to His disciples (John 15:16; Matthew 11:27), so the Holy Spirit imparts into Christ's disciples the ability to ask the Righteous God for good according to God's Will (John 15:19); therefore, man is at the mercy of Almighty God who bestows Grace in every aspect of man being saved from the wrath of God, and man's own initiative cannot choose the Righteous God whom evil man cannot perceive in righteousness!

When you wrote "He does not say they cannot he asks why they do not judge what is right", then you fail to understand basic English because Jesus literally says that people do not have the ability to judge what is right on their own initiative when He asks them why they do not have the ability:
Click to expand...
Sorry you do nothing at all to prove that claim

Luke 12:57–59 (UASV) — 57 And why do you not also judge for yourselves what is right? 58 For as you are going with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to come to a settlement with him on the way, so that he will not drag you to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the bailiff, and the bailiff will throw you into prison. 59 I say to you, you will by no means get out of there until you have paid the very last lepton.

There is nothing it which states they cannot

I am afraid theology has warped your reading ability so that even interpreting a plain text is beyond you.
 
TomL said:
Sorry you do nothing at all to prove that claim

Luke 12:57–59 (UASV) — 57 And why do you not also judge for yourselves what is right? 58 For as you are going with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to come to a settlement with him on the way, so that he will not drag you to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the bailiff, and the bailiff will throw you into prison. 59 I say to you, you will by no means get out of there until you have paid the very last lepton.

There is nothing it which states they cannot

I am afraid theology has warped your reading ability so that even interpreting a plain text is beyond you.
Click to expand...

Look carefully at the post to which you replied because I did not write "cannot" in reference to "why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right
(Lord Jesus Christ, Luke 12:57), so you argue with yourself because you persist with "cannot". You are dead wrong about man having free-will to choose God, and, the Truth (John 14:6) is that no Word of God indicates man was imparted a free-will to choose God. God is exclusively Sovereign in man's salvation as shown in the past posts in this exchange in Truth (John 14:6).

You cannot choose God, and you always fail to judge rightly in your own initiative to choose the Righteous God because the Word of God says such between the below and above.

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your free-will saying "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).

You wrote "John 15:5 speaks of the believers walk not the ability to believe" (proof post #4,906), so you adulterate the Word of God in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God, and your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
TomL's Self-exaltation Exaltation of Christ
I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for you can choose to believe in me apart from Me
(TomL 15:5).		 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:5).
so your heart preaches your sovereignty of man eliminating the Sovereignty of God, and so go your adulterations of the the Holy Word of God.

Moreover, you do not believe Jesus (John 5:45-47) when He says "see" (John 3:3) as can be seen in when you wrote "John 3:3 speaks of on experiencing the kingdom of God not seeing it" (proof post #4,906), so you adulterate the Word of God in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God, and your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The word of TomL The Word of God
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot experience yet he can see the Kingdom of God
(TomL 3:3).		 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).
so your heart preaches your sovereignty of man eliminating the Sovereignty of God, and so go your adulterations of the Holy Word of God again.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD - THE GIVER OF LIFE AND SIGHT!!!
 
Kermos said:
Now, right back to where we left off previously.



You believe in your Christ's failure atonement as comprehensively proven below, in Truth (John 14:6).

I do not intend to leave this behind, civic, just like I explained to you previously.

God causes me to visit each and every verse that you quoted in your post.

According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:
  • if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
  • if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
  • The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.
So, you free-willians believe in failure atonement.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Book of Free-williansThe Book of John
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world for people like Judas Iscariot and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God!
(civic 1:29)		The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
(John 1:29)

The Book of Free-williansThe Book of Hebrews
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he ineffectively suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might ineffectually taste death for everyone like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God.
(civic 2:9)		But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
(Hebrews 2:9)

The Book of Free-williansThe Book of Titus
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment
(civic 2:11)		For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
(Titus 2:11)

The Book of Free-williansThe Book of Titus
But when the kindness and the love of mankind which includes God-displeasing sin-immersed self-willed under the wrath of God people like Nancy of God our Savior appeared
(civic 3:4)		But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared
(Titus 3:4)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again.

Lord Jesus says "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:19-20) in the immediately same conversation as John 3:16!

Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The word of civicThe Word of God
For God so loved the world like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever loving the darkness hating the Light by self-will choosing to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(civic 3:16)		For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16)
And so go your revilings against the precious Holy Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) as you illegally redefine believe as a work of man instead of the work of God again and again.

Your adulterations continue:
The First Book of Free-williansThe First Book of Timothy
Who will have all men to be saved, but God's will fails miserably with saving people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1 civic 2:4)		Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1 Timothy 2:4)

The Second Book of Free-williansThe Second Book of Peter
The Lord breaks his promise because he is patient with you people like Nancy of the world who will never be a part of the Body of Christ, not wishing that any should perish but people like Nancy perish without ever coming to repentance.
(2 civic 3:9)		The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9)
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Notice the phrase "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author, the First Book of John inspired by the glorious Holy Spirit.

You brought up 1 John 2:2 which shall be examined in a moment, and the other location is "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one, so everyone except current Christians are included in "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The First Book of Free-williansThe First Book of John
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing, Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for ones such as people like Nancy.
(1 civic 2:2)		He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
(1 John 2:2)
So "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 includes exclusively the people that will become Christians believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent before these people die, so "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 has a different meaning than "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, but your heart destroys context for "the whole world", and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Crucially, you quoted where the Apostle declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Second Book of Free-williansThe Second Book to the Corinthians
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died and now live in Christ, including people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing
(2 civic 5:14)		For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died
(2 Corinthians 5:14)
And you quoted 2 Corinthians 5:14 without your recognition of "and He died for all, so that those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose on their behalf" (2 Corinthians 5:15) thus your heart's destroy context for 2 Corinthians 5:14, and so goes your confusion about the Holy Scripture again.

We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

You make false statements about God and man (1 John 4:1). Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! THE LORD IS MY SALVATION!!!
Click to expand...
the atonement is only applied to those who believe the gospel.
 
civic said:
the atonement is only applied to those who believe the gospel.
Click to expand...

Your sentence is true.

Lord Jesus Christ says God causes us Christians to believe the Gospel of Christ with His wonderfully beautiful saying of "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29); therefore, the atonement is exclusively for Christians who the Father imparts belief in the Son, see post #4,981 to which you replied.

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! THE LORD IS MY SALVATION!!!
 
The term Free Will conveys the notion that choices are involved. We can choose to believe and accept the Gospel or choose to reject it.

Any such choice or decision we call a volition, an act or exercise of the will.
 
John Evens said:
The term Free Will conveys the notion that choices are involved. We can choose to believe and accept the Gospel or choose to reject it.

Any such choice or decision we call a volition, an act or exercise of the will.
Click to expand...
I agree.... argh, I did nothing to make this type italicized..........

I do believe Adam had free will. Did Eve? maybe, maybe not. Could she have been a test to see if Adam would have obeyed?

Doesn't matter and we cant know but he did not obey what he was told. Why? Had to be free will and wanting to please his woman.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
MTMattie said:
I agree.... argh, I did nothing to make this type italicized..........

I do believe Adam had free will. Did Eve? maybe, maybe not. Could she have been a test to see if Adam would have obeyed?

Doesn't matter and we cant know but he did not obey what he was told. Why? Had to be free will and wanting to please his woman.
Click to expand...
Fixed
 
MTMattie said:
I agree.... argh, I did nothing to make this type italicized..........

I do believe Adam had free will. Did Eve? maybe, maybe not. Could she have been a test to see if Adam would have obeyed?

Doesn't matter and we cant know but he did not obey what he was told. Why? Had to be free will and wanting to please his woman.
Click to expand...

Why Did God Create Adam and Eve If He Knew They Would Sin?​

Sixbert SANGWA June 06, 2024
One of the most profound mysteries in Christianity is why God would create Adam and Eve, knowing full well that they would eventually sin and bring sin into the world. This question has perplexed many believers over the centuries, as it seems to challenge the goodness and wisdom of an all-knowing, all-powerful God. However, a careful examination of Scripture reveals that God had a greater purpose in creating mankind, even with the foreknowledge of the Fall.

Firstly, it's important to understand that God is omniscient - He knows all things, including the future. The Bible clearly states that "God knows the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10). So, when God created Adam and Eve, He was fully aware that they would disobey Him and sin. Yet, He still chose to create them.

The reason lies in God's ultimate purpose for creating the world and humanity. As the passage states, "God's purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness." The overarching goal of all that God does is to display His own glory. And surprisingly, the Fall of mankind actually serves to reveal God's glory in ways that would not have been possible without it.

For instance, the passage explains that without the Fall, we would never have known God's justice, grace, mercy, or love. "We would never know grace if we had never needed grace." The cross of Christ, where God's wrath and mercy met, is the ultimate display of His glory. Had there been no sin, we would not have experienced the depths of God's love and forgiveness. God's glory is also revealed in His love (1 John 4:16). Our knowledge of God's love comes from the Person and saving work of Jesus Christ in this fallen world. "This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him" (1 John 4:9).

Moreover, the Bible's "meta-narrative" - the grand storyline from creation to the restoration of all things - is centered on this very theme. The narrative can be divided into three main parts: paradise (Genesis 1-2), paradise lost (Genesis 3-Revelation 20), and paradise regained (Revelation 21-22). The majority of this story is devoted to the transition from paradise lost to paradise regained, with the cross of Christ at the very heart of it.

The passage also addresses the concern that if God foreknew the Fall, then how can humans be held responsible for their sin? The answer lies in the concept of "concurrence" - God's sovereign will flowing concurrently with our free choices. Though God foreordained the Fall, He did not coerce Adam and Eve to sin; they made their own free choices, which ultimately served God's greater purpose.

It's important to note that the Bible acknowledges the limits of human understanding when it comes to the mysteries of God. In Deuteronomy 29:29, we read, "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things which are revealed and disclosed belong to us and to our children forever, so that we may do all of the words of this law." This means that there are some aspects of God's plan that are beyond our comprehension, and we must humbly accept that there are certain things that belong only to the Lord.

Furthermore, the apostle Paul reminds us that our understanding of God's ways is incomplete in this life, but one day, we will know fully. In 1 Corinthians 13:12, he writes, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." This suggests that the things which are currently hidden from us will be revealed in God's perfect timing, when we are in His eternal presence.

In conclusion, while the question of why God created Adam and Eve, knowing they would sin, may seem perplexing, the Scriptures reveal that it was all part of God's grand plan to display His glory in the fullest possible way. Through the Fall, the redemption of humanity, and the ultimate restoration of all things, God's love, grace, mercy, and justice will be fully manifest, leading all creation to worship Him for eternity. Although we may not fully understand the intricacies of God's ways in this life, we can trust that He is working all things together for His ultimate purpose and glory, and that one day, the mysteries will be made plain.
 
John Evens said:

Why Did God Create Adam and Eve If He Knew They Would Sin?​

Sixbert SANGWA June 06, 2024
One of the most profound mysteries in Christianity is why God would create Adam and Eve, knowing full well that they would eventually sin and bring sin into the world. This question has perplexed many believers over the centuries, as it seems to challenge the goodness and wisdom of an all-knowing, all-powerful God. However, a careful examination of Scripture reveals that God had a greater purpose in creating mankind, even with the foreknowledge of the Fall.

Firstly, it's important to understand that God is omniscient - He knows all things, including the future. The Bible clearly states that "God knows the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10). So, when God created Adam and Eve, He was fully aware that they would disobey Him and sin. Yet, He still chose to create them.

The reason lies in God's ultimate purpose for creating the world and humanity. As the passage states, "God's purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness." The overarching goal of all that God does is to display His own glory. And surprisingly, the Fall of mankind actually serves to reveal God's glory in ways that would not have been possible without it.

For instance, the passage explains that without the Fall, we would never have known God's justice, grace, mercy, or love. "We would never know grace if we had never needed grace." The cross of Christ, where God's wrath and mercy met, is the ultimate display of His glory. Had there been no sin, we would not have experienced the depths of God's love and forgiveness. God's glory is also revealed in His love (1 John 4:16). Our knowledge of God's love comes from the Person and saving work of Jesus Christ in this fallen world. "This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him" (1 John 4:9).

Moreover, the Bible's "meta-narrative" - the grand storyline from creation to the restoration of all things - is centered on this very theme. The narrative can be divided into three main parts: paradise (Genesis 1-2), paradise lost (Genesis 3-Revelation 20), and paradise regained (Revelation 21-22). The majority of this story is devoted to the transition from paradise lost to paradise regained, with the cross of Christ at the very heart of it.

The passage also addresses the concern that if God foreknew the Fall, then how can humans be held responsible for their sin? The answer lies in the concept of "concurrence" - God's sovereign will flowing concurrently with our free choices. Though God foreordained the Fall, He did not coerce Adam and Eve to sin; they made their own free choices, which ultimately served God's greater purpose.

It's important to note that the Bible acknowledges the limits of human understanding when it comes to the mysteries of God. In Deuteronomy 29:29, we read, "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things which are revealed and disclosed belong to us and to our children forever, so that we may do all of the words of this law." This means that there are some aspects of God's plan that are beyond our comprehension, and we must humbly accept that there are certain things that belong only to the Lord.

Furthermore, the apostle Paul reminds us that our understanding of God's ways is incomplete in this life, but one day, we will know fully. In 1 Corinthians 13:12, he writes, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." This suggests that the things which are currently hidden from us will be revealed in God's perfect timing, when we are in His eternal presence.

In conclusion, while the question of why God created Adam and Eve, knowing they would sin, may seem perplexing, the Scriptures reveal that it was all part of God's grand plan to display His glory in the fullest possible way. Through the Fall, the redemption of humanity, and the ultimate restoration of all things, God's love, grace, mercy, and justice will be fully manifest, leading all creation to worship Him for eternity. Although we may not fully understand the intricacies of God's ways in this life, we can trust that He is working all things together for His ultimate purpose and glory, and that one day, the mysteries will be made plain.
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Strictly my opinion, because I have had several over the years on this.

First. I believe if we look at Job and his devotion to God with God allowing the worst to come after him but basically having his back in the end we could see a miniature version of what has transpired these 6000 plus years to us. And all with the permission of God.

Everything that was created in its magnitude that has been allowed to expand world wide was by design.

Now the question remains is if this was done for the purpose of enjoyment for God or if there was another plan in mind.

I believe when Lucifer said
" I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." It ticked God off so badly that he had to get him gone.

So, It seemingly happened... his being thrown to earth, to be God of this earth... by the time Eve ate that fruit.

Now I cannot prove this but it is simply a gut reaction to logistical thinking and allowing the Holy Spirit to form things in my mind... that
there may have been such an argument between God and Lucifer, and somewhere along the way came the idea that we were to be the
"test" subjects for who would follow God and Who would desire Satan's ways.

You say no one would do that.... I beg to differ when we see all the abominations committed by humans which are multiplying faster then we can
count... and the plan WAS for a Messiah. A Savior . To come to save us from the destruction that will fall on those who will not follow Him if we believe and have the proper faith.

Now that is just a thumbnail outline or explanation of one thought I have had. Time nor space is not present to expound into the thesis I could write on this.... because all along the way there were periods of God destroying sin wracked cities , such as Sodom and Gomorrah, I believe to help contain what was spreading... and even Noah's flood to get a clean fresh start in the world... but it did not work.

The only hope is for Jesus for us, and what becomes of the others ... well, they made their choice.

That was totally clear when the "woke" were so upset at the election the other night.... they feel their very lives are going to be taken away from them.... because it is their choice .
 
Kermos said:
Look carefully at the post to which you replied because I did not write "cannot" in reference to "why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right
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Sure you did

When you wrote "He does not say they cannot he asks why they do not judge what is right", then you fail to understand basic English because Jesus literally says that people do not have the ability to judge what is right on their own initiative when He asks them why they do not have the ability:

Why do you deny your own words?
 
TomL said:
Sure you did

When you wrote "He does not say they cannot he asks why they do not judge what is right", then you fail to understand basic English because Jesus literally says that people do not have the ability to judge what is right on their own initiative when He asks them why they do not have the ability:

Why do you deny your own words?
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Yep 👍
 
Kermos said:
Your sentence is true.

Lord Jesus Christ says God causes us Christians to believe the Gospel of Christ with His wonderfully beautiful saying of "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29); therefore, the atonement is exclusively for Christians who the Father imparts belief in the Son, see post #4,981 to which you replied.
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This is because the atonement doesn't give faith. That comes from the person.

Kermos said:
Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! THE LORD IS MY SALVATION!!!
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Apparently free will is not determined by God according to you, but is conjured by men?
 
brightfame52 said:
@civic



Right since He only died for them that believe the Gospel. He applies the atonement on them He died for and then they believe in Him
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Nope He died for everyone, the whole world as Jesus and the Apostles proclaimed in their writings.


John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Hope this helps !!!
 

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