You are running from the issue
One may be saved because of Faith
Romans 10:9 (ESV) — 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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One may be saved because of Faith
Romans 10:9 (ESV) — 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Says the Bible nowhere. It actually says "you are saved BY GRACE" throfaith. " by the means of" faith. Not because of faith.because of our faith we are saved by His grace.
DavidTree
Well-known member
my heart shared with you before
i do not know Calvinist lore
never read of him and most likely never will
the Holy Scriptures are God's Will
Once AGAIN
You are sharing thru Scripture the ACTUATION of the Gospel = all TRUTH my Brother
Question for @civic @TibiasDad @Presby02
Who actuated 'your faith' ???
There is one Scripture that Says it ALL = 100% undeniable unless you think you stand Tall
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
sorry my issue was never about Eph 2:8 but that faith is causative
You denied it
I proved you wrong
DavidTree
Well-known member
you have it in REVERSEbecause of our faith we are saved by His grace.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
No matter how you put it there is a causative value to faith
| Faith as an Instrumental cause John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith? John includes the three in one sentence when he says, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16). That is not the word of an Arminian or a provisionist but of John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997). Similarly The Calvinist Theologian Berkouwer states 3. TO FAITH. Faith is the mediate or instrumental cause of sanctification as well as of justification. It does not merit sanctification any more than it does justification, but it unites us to Christ and keeps us in touch with Him as the Head of the new humanity, who is the source of the new life within us, and also of our progressive sanctification, through the operation of the Holy Spirit L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co., 1938), 537. There is not just a correlation between faith and justification, faith and regeneration , faith and salvation There is a causal relationship even Calvinist theologians have affirmed |
DavidTree
Well-known member
ABSOLUTELY TRUE and it is CHRIST
looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith
Where do you stand: before , middle , or after
civic
Well-known member
The author and finisher of our faith - The word "our" is not in the original here, and obscures the sense. The meaning is, he is the first and the last as an example of faith or of confidence in God - occupying in this, as in all other things, the pre-eminence, and being the most complete model that can be placed before us. The apostle had not enumerated him among those who had been distinguished for their faith, but he now refers to him as above them all; as a case that deserved to stand by itself. It is probable that there is a continuance here of the allusion to the Grecian games which the apostle had commenced in the previous verse. The word "author" - ἀρχηγὸν archēgon - (marg. beginner) - means properly the source, or cause of anything; or one who makes a beginning. It is rendered in Acts 3:15; Acts 5:31, "Prince"; in Hebrews 2:10, "Captain"; and in the place before us, "Author."
It does not occur elsewhere in the New Testament. The phrase "the beginner of faith," or the leader on of faith, would express the idea. He is at the head of all those who have furnished an example of confidence in God, for he was himself the most illustrious instance of it. The expression, then, does not mean properly that he produces faith in us, or that we believe because he causes us to believe - whatever may be the truth about that - but that he stands at the head as the most eminent example that can be referred to on the subject of faith. We are exhorted to look to him, as if at the Grecian games there was one who stood before the racer who had previously carried away every palm of victory; who had always been triumphant, and with whom there was no one who could be compared. The word "finisher" - τελειωτὴν teleiōtēn - corresponds in meaning with the word "author." It means that he is the completer as well as the beginner; the last as well as the first.barnes
hope this helps !!!
Faith does have a cause, it's God. It's the means He has chosen to save those He has chosen.
DavidTree
Well-known member
my , my - man's intellect obscures True sense!
OK, have it your way! = you just PROVED, beyond any shadow of doubt this: "JESUS the AUTHOR and FINISHER of FAITH"
Notice, this is the SAME as: "My Own Arm brought Salvation to ME" = ALPHA and OMEGA , BEGINNING and END
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DavidTree
Well-known member
Post 4,491 edited according to HIS GLORY and for our Benefit
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civic
Well-known member
BDAG.
. because of belowmarker of someth. constituting cause
ⓐ the reason why someth. happens, results, exists: because of, for the sake of (do something for the sake of a divinity: UPZ 62, 2 [161 b.c.] διὰ τὸν Σάραπιν; JosAs 1:10 διʼ αὐτήν; ApcSed 3:3 διὰ τὸν ἄνθρωπον; Tat. 8:2 διὰ τὸν … Ἄττιν; Ath. 30, 1 διὰ τὴν Δερκετώ) hated because of the name Mt 10:22; persecution arises because of teaching 13:21; because of unbelief vs. 58; because of a tradition 15:3; διὰ τὸν ἄνθρωπον (the sabbath was designed) for people Mk 2:27; because of Herodias Mk 6:17 (cp. Just. D. 34, 8 διὰ γυναῖκα); because of a crowd Lk 5:19; 8:19 al; because of Judeans Ac 16:3. διὰ τὸν θόρυβον 21:34; because of rain 28:2. Juristically to indicate guilt: imprisoned for insurrection and murder Lk 23:25. διʼ ὑμᾶς on your account=through your fault Ro 2:24 (Is 52:5). διὰ τὴν πάρεσιν because of the passing over 3:25 (but s. WKümmel, ZTK 49, ’52, 164). διὰ τὰ παραπτώματα on account of transgressions 4:25a (cp. Is 53:5; PsSol 13:5); but διὰ τὴν δικαίωσιν in the interest of justification vs. 25b; s. 8:10 for a sim. paired use of διὰ. διὰ τὴν χάριν on the basis of the grace 15:15. διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκός because of a physical ailment (cp. POxy 726, 10f [II a.d.] οὐ δυνάμενος διʼ ἀσθένειαν πλεῦσαι. Cp. ἀσθένεια 1) Gal 4:13. διὰ τὸ θέλημα σου by your will Rv 4:11. διὰ τὸν χρόνον according to the time = by this time Hb 5:12 (Aelian, VH 3, 37 δ. τὸν χρ.=because of the particular time-situation).—W. words denoting emotions out of (Diod S 5, 59, 8 διὰ τὴν λύπην; 18, 25, 1 διὰ τὴν προπέτειαν=out of rashness; Appian, Celt. 1 §9 διʼ ἐλπίδα; 2 Macc 5:21; 7:20; 9:8; 3 Macc 5:32, 41; Tob 8:7): διὰ φθόνον out of envy Mt 27:18; Phil 1:15. διὰ σπλάγχνα ἐλέους out of tender mercy Lk 1:78. διὰ τ. φόβον τινός out of fear of someone J 7:13. διὰ τὴν πολλὴν ἀγάπην out of the great love Eph 2:4. διὰ τ. πλεονεξίαν in their greediness B 10:4.—Of God as the ultimate goal or purpose of life, whereas διά w. gen. (s. A4bβ above) represents God as Creator, Hb 2:10a (s. Norden, op. cit.; PGM 13, 76 διὰ σὲ συνέστηκεν … ἡ γῆ). Cp. J 6:57 (s. Bultmann ad loc.) PtK 2.
ⓑ in direct questions διὰ τί; why? (Hyperid. 3, 17; Dio Chrys. 20 [37], 28; Ael. Aristid. 31 p. 597 D.; oft. LXX; TestJob 37:8; TestLevi 2:9; GrBar, Tat; Mel., Fgm. 8b, 42) mostly in an interrogative clause Mt 9:11, 14; 13:10; 15:2f; 17:19; 21:25; Mk 2:18; 11:31; Lk 5:30; 19:23, 31; 20:5; 24:38; J 7:45; 8:43, 46; 12:5; 13:37; Ac 5:3; 1 Cor 6:7; Rv 17:7. Simply διὰ τί; (Hyperid. 3, 23) Ro 9:32; 2 Cor 11:11. Also διατί (always in t.r. and often by Tdf.; TestJob 46:2) B 8:4, 6; Hm 2:5; Hs 5, 5, 5. Kvan Leeuwen Boomkamp, Τι et Διατι dans les évangiles: RevÉtGr 39, 1926, 327–31.—In real and supposed answers and inferences διὰ τοῦτο therefore (X., An. 1, 7, 3; 7, 19; oft. LXX; JosAs 7:7; Ar. 12, 2; Just., A I, 44, 5 al.; Demetr.: 722 Fgm. 2, 3 Jac.) Mt 6:25; 12:27, 31; 13:13, 52; 14:2; 18:23; 21:43; 23:13 v.l.; 24:44; Mk 11:24; 12:24; Lk 11:19 al. Also διὰ ταῦτα (Epict.) Eph 5:6. διὰ τοῦτο ὅτι for this reason, (namely) that J 5:16, 18; 8:47; 10:17; 12:18, 39; 15:19; 1J 3:1. διὰ τοῦτο ἵνα for this reason, (in order) that (Lucian, Abdic. 1) J 1:31; 2 Cor 13:10; 1 Ti 1:16; Phlm 15. Also διὰ τοῦτο ὅπως Hb 9:15.
ⓒ διά foll. by inf. or acc. w. inf., representing a causal clause, because (Gen 39:9; Dt 1:36; 1 Macc 6:53; GrBar 8:4; Demetr.: 722 fgm 1:1 al.) διὰ τὸ μὴ ἔχειν βάθος because it had no depth Mt 13:5f; Mk 4:5f (διὰ τὸ μή w. inf.: X., Mem. 1, 3, 5; Hero Alex. I 348, 7; III 274, 19; Lucian, Hermot. 31); because lawlessness increases Mt 24:12; διὰ τὸ εἶναι αὐτὸν ἐξ οἴκου Δ.. Lk 2:4; because it was built well 6:48 al. διὰ τὸ λέγεσθαι ὑπό τινων because it was said by some Lk 9:7 (for the constr. cp. Herodian 7, 12, 7 διὰ τὸ τὰς ἐξόδους ὑπὸ τ. πυρὸς προκατειλῆφθαι=because the exit-routes were blocked by the fire).
ⓓ instead of διά w. gen. to denote the efficient cause we may have διά, by
α. w. acc. of thing (schol. on Pind., N. 4, 79a; 2 Macc 12:11; EpArist 77) διὰ τὸ αἷμα by the blood Rv 12:11. διὰ τὰ σημεῖα by the miracles 13:14.
β. w. acc. of pers. and freq. as expr. of favorable divine action (Aristoph., Plut. 468; Dionys. Hal. 8, 33, 3, 1579 μέγας διὰ τ. θεούς ἐγενόμην; Ael. Aristid. 24, 1 K.=44 p. 824 D.: διʼ οὓς [= θεούς] ἐσώθην; SIG 1122; OGI 458, 40; PGM 13, 579 διῳκονομήθη τ. πάντα διὰ σέ; EpArist 292; Sir 15:11; 3 Macc 6:36: other exx. in SEitrem and AFridrichsen, E. christl. Amulett auf Pap. 1921, 24). ζῶ διὰ τὸν πατέρα J 6:57 (cp. PKöln VI, 245, 16 of Isis σὺ κυρεῖς τὰ πάντα, διὰ σὲ δʼ εἰσορῶ φαός ‘you are responsible for everything and thanks to you I can see light’). διὰ τὸν ὑποτάξαντα by the one who subjected it Ro 8:20.—DELG. M-M. TW.
Arndt, William, Frederick W. Danker, Walter Bauer, and F. Wilbur Gingrich. 2000. In A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed., 225–26. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
You are dodging the point. Faith is causative in salvation
Romans 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
civic
Well-known member
Yes once again we see a turning a blind eye to the scriptures in favor of a man made doctrine
That's a self descriptive comment about self-willed you (2 Peter 2:9-10). Just take a look at the following.
Look at your first 3 paragraphs in response to Godly exegesis of 2 Corinthians 5:14 to which you had responded in your below quote, civic. Your understanding of Holy Scripture is revealed therein. You adulterated "all died" into "All die", so you fail to understand Holy Scripture.
I understand that you reject being under the loving control of Christ as per 2 Corinthians 5:14.
These crucial points about 2nd Corinthians 5:14 are the Truth (John 14:6):
- "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died" (2 Corinthians 5:14) contains two instances of the word "all", so the concept of "all" in 2 Corinthians 5:14 includes not everyone everywhere in all time - see "all died" which is exclusively every Christian who first died to sin and was born clean by God because of the love of Christ controlling us Christians - One died for all Christians.
- The word controls in 2 Corinthians 5:14 requires the Christ be the one who exclusively chooses to control every person in the all. We Christians know this for the Good Shepherd comforts us with “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19).
- Only the born of God are the audience for the Second Letter to the Corinthians because the letter is "To the assembly of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia" (2 Corinthians 1:1), so the two instances of "all" in 2 Corinthians 5:14 is constrained to the understanding of God's born again persons controlled by the love of Christ but not worldly persons.
- According to your Free-willian Philosophy, Christ died for every person everywhere in all time, and the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:
- if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
- if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
- The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.
- You Free-Willian Philosophers adulterate Holy Scripture as evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The Second Book of Free-willians The Second Book to the Corinthians For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died and now live in Christ, including people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing
(2 civic 5:14)For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died
(2 Corinthians 5:14) - You free-willians fail to have Godly understanding of 2 Corinthians 5:14 continuing into "and He died for all, so that the living would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose on their behalf" (2 Corinthians 5:15) since this "all" is exactly the same group as "the living" thus your heart destroys context for 2 Corinthians 5:14, and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.
- Christ's doctrine is that no person can righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God unless the person is first born by the Holy Spirit of God with "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3), so you exclude yourself from the audience for the Second Letter to the Corinthians because of the constraint in 2 Corinthians 1:1.
- Crucially, the Apostle Paul declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ because you believe your free-will is uncontrolled by Christ. In fact, you believe you control Christ with your fleshly concept of "apart from Christ, I chose Christ, so Christ must profit me with salvation".
We Christians know we are entirely dependent upon our Lord Jesus Christ's loving control for salvation.
You free-willians believe you are entirely dependent upon your non-born by God, self-willed flesh (2 Peter 2:9-10) to control Christ forcing Christ to profit you with salvation, and you believe it despite the Word of God declaring "it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life" (John 6:63).
Your belief is in a state of confusion.
We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! THANK YOU LORD JESUS FOR YOUR LOVING CONTROL!!!
It;'s a repetitive reality. A Groundhog day
Your question still makes no sense
Additionally it appears you did not understand the statement
@DavidTree's question makes sense. It appears to me that you cower from answering him.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!
