An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Nothing there about actuating faith
DavidTree
Well-known member
YOU are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT
It is ONLY about GOD leading you to repentance!
Even when you are UNAWARE
The actuation comes later............
So why did you quote it?
TibiasDad
Well-known member
And I defy anyone to demonstrate that I have said anything different. God is first in all things, thus, what he does and is comes before all other things.
Faith is a response of another toward what God has done. Responses are always after the initial action.
God must act first in order for us to respond.
Doug
DavidTree
Well-known member
HalleluYAH Brother Doug
DavidTree
Well-known member
Who controls the 'wind' ???
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.
So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
DavidTree
Well-known member
If you remember, i said that the preaching of the Gospel is a actuation of salvation.
There are multiple stages of actuation as well.
The FIRST Actuation is GOD Himself = "No one comes to ME unless the FATHER draws them"
DavidTree
Well-known member
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.
So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
What are you NOT seeing here???
Nothing there about an actuation of faith
Actuation makes real what it is said to actuate
The preaching of the gospel enables faith but it does not actuate it.
Correct. Preachers are not Magicians; although, many do think they are.
DavidTree
Well-known member
What is the Spirit doing?
Is HE standing still in Heaven?
or
Is HE moving about FREELY as HE wishes???
actuation
noun
DavidTree
Well-known member
Right now we are not talking about preachers but the Holy Spirit.
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.
So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
civic
Well-known member
Amen
civic
Well-known member
meaning we cannot see Gods workings/actions going on behind the scene because they are spiritual working in the heart of man to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgement according to Jesus. But as Jesus taught we can see the results of the wind even though we are not capable of seeing the wind.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Here I will provide some exegesis to the teaching of Jesus with Nicodemus.
John 3 the context, Jesus teaching and His argument used with Nicodemus. Jesus main focus is on the Atonement. Jesus is dealing with the sin issue.
This is the cultural context in which this dialogue between a leading Jew and Jesus takes place. Jesus is correcting two fundamental misconceptions of the Jewish understanding of salvation. They will not inherit the Kingdom of God unconditionally. They must be changed. They must be reborn. This change does not take place corporately but individually, “No one [individual] can see” or “enter” the Kingdom of God without first being reborn. The Kingdom of God is not unconditionally guaranteed to them. They cannot enter the Kingdom until their sin has been dealt with, for the Kingdom of God is a holy Kingdom. There is need for real atonement before one can enter into the life of God’s Kingdom. Since sin brings death “you must be born again”. How does this happen? Nicodemus asks Jesus this same question in verse 9, “how can this be?”
Jesus quickly directs Nicodemus to the necessity of atonement. He says in verses 14 and 15, “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.” So how does one attain the new life necessary for seeing and entering the Kingdom of God? He must look to the lifted up Messiah and believe in him. While Calvinists lay great stress on the analogy of spiritual birth with physical birth, they virtually ignore the implications involved with the analogy of the bronze serpent that Jesus specifically used to answer Nicodemus’ question of how one becomes born again (vs. 9).
The Israelites in the desert were dying from the deadly venom of snake bites. The only way they could escape certain death was to look to the bronze serpent that God had provided for their healing. Those Israelites were dying until they fixed their gaze on the bronze snake. Jesus correlates this “looking” to the snake with “believing”. When someone believes in Christ the blood of atonement is applied, the curse of sin and death is broken, and new life begins. If the Calvinistic interpretation of John3:3, 6 is correct then Jesus chose a poor analogy to explain to Nicodemus how the new life begins. If their view is correct then we must also believe that the Israelites in the desert were not given life as a result of fixing their gaze on the bronze serpent, but were rather first given life so that they could then look to [or “see”] the serpent. In this view they looked to the serpent because they had already been cured of the venom’s deadly effects. They would not have looked to the serpent to secure life; they would have looked to the serpent because they had already been given life. I would venture to say that no Calvinist believes that the Israelites looked to the bronze serpent because they had already been cured and given life. Since this is the illustration that Christ chose to explain the nature of his atonement and the means by which we attain life, it is absurd to believe that Jesus was teaching that the new birth precedes faith in John 3:3, 6. Consider the parallels,
The Bronze Snake:
The Israelites had to look to the bronze serpent to escape the deadly effects of the venom and experience life, “Anyone who is bitten can look at [the serpent] and live…when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake they lived.” [Numbers 21:8, 9]
The Crucified Messiah:
Only those who look to the Messiah’s atonement by faith in His blood will escape the deadly effects of sin and experience new life, “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son [as a necessary atonement], that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” [Jn. 3:14-16]
Rather than allowing Jesus to explain His own teaching, the Calvinist wants to “explain” what Jesus meant before He does. If we want to understand what Jesus meant by His comments in John 3:3, 6, we only need to keep reading. If we can resist the temptation to read our theology into his comments we will soon discover that one is born again by believing in Christ and thereby appropriating the benefits of His atonement. Only after the blood of the “lifted up” Messiah is applied through faith can one begin to experience the eternal life that begins at the new birth.
When Jesus said that no one can “see” or “enter” the Kingdom of God unless that person was born again, He was teaching the necessity of the application of His atoning work. Only when sin is dealt with in the life of the individual can that person experience life and move into the sphere of God’s holy Kingdom. Jesus made it clear that the soul cleansing benefits of His atoning work are given only to those who “believe” in Him.
Nicodemus may have walked away confused and frustrated but Jesus perfectly explained to him why the Jewish view of salvation was inadequate. The only way for anyone, Jew or Gentile, to attain the life of the Messianic Kingdom is for them to personally put their faith in the atoning work of the Messiah. While John 3:3 and 6, when read in the context of the entire chapter, lends further weight to the Arminian view, it fails as a proof text for the Calvinistic doctrine of regeneration preceding faith.https://arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2007/08/20/does-jesus-teach-that-regeneration-precedes-faith-in-john-33-6/
hope this helps !!!
DavidTree
Well-known member
OK, as you know me i do not prefer like a whole page of scripture and talk mixed in BECAUSE this is a 'clever' way to slip in error with Truth.
So i am looking ONLY at the your paragraph above and will say - 100% TRUTH = every word!!!
i will move on to the next paragraph after review and, as i always do, go back to read the scripture again - THANK YOU Brother
DavidTree
Well-known member
Your paragraph #2
Two IMPORTANT TRUTHS here Brother and a 3rd and a 4th
#1- 100% TRUTH = every word!!!
However, since i am not a 'calvinist' i cannot say either way on that part and it really does not matter!
#2 - You just provided, for yourself, the EVIDENCE, that God circumcised unto being Born-Again in the days of Moses
with the episode of the bronze serpent.
Now, the bronze serpent was RAISED for the healing of the snake bites WHICH Points DIRECTLY back to the FIRST Snake Bite that
brought sin upon all of Mankind = Garden Serpent to Eve then Adam.
This does not infer that everyone who was healed by "Looking at the Bronze Serpent" was Born- Again = ABSOLUTELY NOT
#3 - If you return to your first paragraph you will NOTE that JESUS EXPECTED Nicodemus to ALREADY understand the New Birth which is Circumcision of the heart performed by God's Spirit thru FAITH in the Word.
Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
#4 - JESUS shifts from the Ongoing Work of the Holy Spirit which began in Genesis chapter 1 to Himself in Prophecy.
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