An Article on free will

TibiasDad said:
If you were writing the above to be published, you would be laughed out of the room. No editor would allow his name to be associated such a statement!
Click to expand...

God is my editor, even more than my editor!

TibiasDad said:
I have never said “potentially” in the context of Phil 2:13; and that is why it is a strawman argument!
Click to expand...

You interjected yourself into the conversation about Philippians 2:13 from two angles
  • God caused me to quote Philippians 2:13 by reference in post #4,015 to @Kampioen where Kampioen championed the idea that God is less than Almighty.
  • the chain of this very exchange between you and I goes back to post #3,648 specifically quoting Philippians 2:13.

TibiasDad said:
My original comment is about a pre-conversion context, not a post-conversion context.
Click to expand...

You mentioned pre-conversion and post-conversion, but you neglected to mention conversion, itself. Lord Jesus mentions conversion specifically in "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 18:3).

For pre-conversion, the Apostle Paul explains that the Word of God is foolishness to man with a "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

For conversion and post- conversion, the Apostle Paul explains "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

"Yahweh kills and makes alive" (1 Samuel 2:6), so God kills the old natural man with man's inability to righteously perceive King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God; moreover, God births the new Spiritual man with man's newly imparted ability to righteously perceive King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God.

You cannot righteously perceive King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God unless you are first born of the Holy Spirit of God because the Word of God declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

Now, the time has come to look at these three states of being:
pre-conversion=Exclusively in his flesh, man wrongly perceives and misunderstands God. See 1 Corinthians 2:14 and John 3:3 and "the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).
conversion=The Holy Spirit works inside of man that man righteously perceives and understands and fears God. See Philippians 2:13 and John 3:3 and “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).
post-conversion=The Holy Spirit keeps working in man to righteously perceive and understand and worship and please God. See Philippians 2:13 and "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth" (John 4:24).

Your exculpatory context restriction between only pre-conversion and post-conversion while eliminating conversion exhibits your wrong perception and misunderstanding of God. Your "strawman argument" is false witness.

TibiasDad said:
The gospel being presented to a group of unbelievers is always a potential circumstance. Some may repent (change their mind) after hearing the gospel, and others may not! Through the revelation of the gospel, God’s word potentially could change the minds of any one of the hearers.

Unless you can quote me directly saying what you surmise me to assert, you are making false claims about me and are exposing the weakness of your own abilities to argue against my opposing beliefs.

Doug
Click to expand...

Right here, you convey that you are outside of Christ at the same time Christ is outside of you at the same time you cause yourself to change of your mind to turn toward Christ unto salvation, so, by definition, self-willed you (2 Peter 2:9-10) believe "apart from Christ, I chose Christ, so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5) as well as "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) as well as “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) as well as “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) as well as “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) as well as "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life" (John 6:63) as well as "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).

TibiasDad, nothing you wrote changes your "potentially" in your more expensive thoughts of "Working toward us includes working in us as well, the changing of our understanding and perspective and thus, potentially, our desires and will. God must always move toward us first", below.

Therefore, you believe "it is God who is potentially at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure", yet your thoughts are out of accord with Apostolic testimony which is "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) which is active, absolute, and constant.

There is no free-will for man in the Gospel of Christ, so the enemies of Christ add free-will to their own evil message.

You are promoting the unbiblical concept of secondary cause which is a Free-willian Philosophy postulate, and your tightly coupled primary cause and secondary cause are addressed in post #4,015.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LIGHT, JESUS CHRIST!!!
 
TibiasDad said:
The possessor is the actuary!

Doug
Click to expand...
The SPIRIT is the Possessor and the Actuary BEFORE our actuary thru FAITH.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Do not marvel that I said to you(@TibiasDad , @civic , @TomL , @Presby02 ) You must be born again.’

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.
So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
 
Kermos said:
God is my editor, even more than my editor!



You interjected yourself into the conversation about Philippians 2:13 from two angles
  • God caused me to quote Philippians 2:13 by reference in post #4,015 to @Kampioen where Kampioen championed the idea that God is less than Almighty.
  • the chain of this very exchange between you and I goes back to post #3,648 specifically quoting Philippians 2:13.



You mentioned pre-conversion and post-conversion, but you neglected to mention conversion, itself. Lord Jesus mentions conversion specifically in "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 18:3).

For pre-conversion, the Apostle Paul explains that the Word of God is foolishness to man with a "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

For conversion and post- conversion, the Apostle Paul explains "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

"Yahweh kills and makes alive" (1 Samuel 2:6), so God kills the old natural man with man's inability to righteously perceive King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God; moreover, God births the new Spiritual man with man's newly imparted ability to righteously perceive King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God.

You cannot righteously perceive King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God unless you are first born of the Holy Spirit of God because the Word of God declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

Now, the time has come to look at these three states of being:
pre-conversion=Exclusively in his flesh, man wrongly perceives and misunderstands God. See 1 Corinthians 2:14 and John 3:3 and "the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).
conversion=The Holy Spirit works inside of man that man righteously perceives and understands and fears God. See Philippians 2:13 and John 3:3 and “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).
post-conversion=The Holy Spirit keeps working in man to righteously perceive and understand and worship and please God. See Philippians 2:13 and "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth" (John 4:24).

Your exculpatory context restriction between only pre-conversion and post-conversion while eliminating conversion exhibits your wrong perception and misunderstanding of God. Your "strawman argument" is false witness.



Right here, you convey that you are outside of Christ at the same time Christ is outside of you at the same time you cause yourself to change of your mind to turn toward Christ unto salvation, so, by definition, self-willed you (2 Peter 2:9-10) believe "apart from Christ, I chose Christ, so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5) as well as "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) as well as “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) as well as “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) as well as “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) as well as "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life" (John 6:63) as well as "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).

TibiasDad, nothing you wrote changes your "potentially" in your more expensive thoughts of "Working toward us includes working in us as well, the changing of our understanding and perspective and thus, potentially, our desires and will. God must always move toward us first", below.

Therefore, you believe "it is God who is potentially at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure", yet your thoughts are out of accord with Apostolic testimony which is "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) which is active, absolute, and constant.

There is no free-will for man in the Gospel of Christ, so the enemies of Christ add free-will to their own evil message.

You are promoting the unbiblical concept of secondary cause which is a Free-willian Philosophy postulate, and your tightly coupled primary cause and secondary cause are addressed in post #4,015.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LIGHT, JESUS CHRIST!!!
Click to expand...
Gookgobbly
 
DavidTree said:
You are still in REVERSE my Brother
you will enjoy this

gobbledygook /gŏb′əl-dē-goo͝k″/

noun​

  1. Unclear, wordy jargon.
  2. Nonsense; meaningless or encrypted language.
  3. Something written in an overly complex, incoherent, or incomprehensible manner.
Click to expand...
Yes those posts are what the definitions you posted mean. It’s the same cut/paste we have seen 100’s of times. Also it’s accusing a couple of pastors here I’ve known well over a decade as being liars. It’s sowing discord , falsely accusing brothers in Christ.

I will quote proverbs below:

There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.
 
Kermos said:
God is my editor, even more than my editor!



You interjected yourself into the conversation about Philippians 2:13 from two angles
  • God caused me to quote Philippians 2:13 by reference in post #4,015 to @Kampioen where Kampioen championed the idea that God is less than Almighty.
  • the chain of this very exchange between you and I goes back to post #3,648 specifically quoting Philippians 2:13.



You mentioned pre-conversion and post-conversion, but you neglected to mention conversion, itself. Lord Jesus mentions conversion specifically in "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 18:3).

For pre-conversion, the Apostle Paul explains that the Word of God is foolishness to man with a "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

For conversion and post- conversion, the Apostle Paul explains "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

"Yahweh kills and makes alive" (1 Samuel 2:6), so God kills the old natural man with man's inability to righteously perceive King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God; moreover, God births the new Spiritual man with man's newly imparted ability to righteously perceive King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God.

You cannot righteously perceive King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God unless you are first born of the Holy Spirit of God because the Word of God declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

Now, the time has come to look at these three states of being:
pre-conversion=Exclusively in his flesh, man wrongly perceives and misunderstands God. See 1 Corinthians 2:14 and John 3:3 and "the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).
conversion=The Holy Spirit works inside of man that man righteously perceives and understands and fears God. See Philippians 2:13 and John 3:3 and “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).
post-conversion=The Holy Spirit keeps working in man to righteously perceive and understand and worship and please God. See Philippians 2:13 and "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth" (John 4:24).

Your exculpatory context restriction between only pre-conversion and post-conversion while eliminating conversion exhibits your wrong perception and misunderstanding of God. Your "strawman argument" is false witness.



Right here, you convey that you are outside of Christ at the same time Christ is outside of you at the same time you cause yourself to change of your mind to turn toward Christ unto salvation, so, by definition, self-willed you (2 Peter 2:9-10) believe "apart from Christ, I chose Christ, so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5) as well as "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) as well as “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) as well as “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) as well as “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) as well as "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life" (John 6:63) as well as "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).

TibiasDad, nothing you wrote changes your "potentially" in your more expensive thoughts of "Working toward us includes working in us as well, the changing of our understanding and perspective and thus, potentially, our desires and will. God must always move toward us first", below.

Therefore, you believe "it is God who is potentially at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure", yet your thoughts are out of accord with Apostolic testimony which is "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) which is active, absolute, and constant.

There is no free-will for man in the Gospel of Christ, so the enemies of Christ add free-will to their own evil message.

You are promoting the unbiblical concept of secondary cause which is a Free-willian Philosophy postulate, and your tightly coupled primary cause and secondary cause are addressed in post #4,015.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LIGHT, JESUS CHRIST!!!
Click to expand...
"Yahweh kills and makes alive" (1 Samuel 2:6), so God kills the old natural man with man's inability to righteously perceive King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God
Click to expand...

Two things from the Word for you @Kermos

1 Samuel 2:6
“The Lord kills and makes alive;
He brings down to the grave and brings up.

#1 - This very clear scripture is only speaking of physical death = the grave

#2 - This very clear scripture is only speaking of the Resurrection = "and brings up" (from the grave)
 
DavidTree said:
you have it in REVERSE

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Click to expand...

“By grace” is dative of means; “through faith” is genitive, a conveys the means of passage by which grace moves to save.

Peter, however, in Acts 15:11, says “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” Here “through the grace of the Lord Jesus” is the same construction as “through faith” in Eph 2:8-9, that being genitive. So if “through faith” is not because of faith, then “through grace” is not because of grace!

Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
“By grace” is dative of means; “through faith” is genitive, a conveys the means of passage by which grace moves to save.

Peter, however, in Acts 15:11, says “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” Here “through the grace of the Lord Jesus” is the same construction as “through faith” in Eph 2:8-9, that being genitive. So if “through faith” is not because of faith, then “through grace” is not because of grace!

Doug
Click to expand...
Nicely done !
 
civic said:
Yes those posts are what the definitions you posted mean. It’s the same cut/paste we have seen 100’s of times. Also it’s accusing a couple of pastors here I’ve known well over a decade as being liars. It’s sowing discord , falsely accusing brothers in Christ.

I will quote proverbs below:

There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.
Click to expand...
Also it’s accusing a couple of pastors here I’ve known well over a decade as being liars. It’s sowing discord , falsely accusing brothers in Christ.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
TibiasDad said:
“By grace” is dative of means; “through faith” is genitive, a conveys the means of passage by which grace moves to save.

Peter, however, in Acts 15:11, says “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” Here “through the grace of the Lord Jesus” is the same construction as “through faith” in Eph 2:8-9, that being genitive. So if “through faith” is not because of faith, then “through grace” is not because of grace!

Doug
Click to expand...
“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus,"

Where did you receive Grace from = your own faith? or the faith of CHRIST?

It does say you received it? YES/NO
 
DavidTree said:
you have it in REVERSE

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Click to expand...
The way I look at it, GRACE came first. :]
 
Selah said:
The way I look at it, GRACE came first. :]
Click to expand...
Concerning our Salvation, HE always comes before us.

Rev 1:17 - “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.

Thank you for the encouragement.
 
DavidTree said:
#1 - This is serious and if you make this accusation you should be able to PROVE what you accuse

the word 'pastor' is to mean that the individual is speaking Truth and leading those under his care into Truth = Thy word is Truth

Anyone who says: "I have never committed lawlessness" is a self confessed liar by GOD's Word

Are you claiming you are Greater then the Apostle John? = 1 John 3:4
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

pastors being deceived is not an abstract but is quite common in 'christiandome' today

I will quote proverbs below:
There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

You should be reminded that pastors/prophets in Elijah's day called him the "TROUBLEMAKER of ISRAEL" = causing conflict in the community

Cut and Paste Scripture??? is that the sin you would accuse me of? i've seen you do that 100's of times MORE then myself
Click to expand...
I was a explaining why I posted gookgobbly to the other poster, not you
 
DavidTree said:
The SPIRIT is the Possessor and the Actuary BEFORE our actuary thru FAITH.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Do not marvel that I said to you(@TibiasDad , @civic , @TomL , @Presby02 ) You must be born again.’

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.
So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Click to expand...
And?

Where does that state
DavidTree said:
my heart shared with you before
i do not know Calvinist lore
never read of him and most likely never will
the Holy Scriptures are God's Will


Once AGAIN

You are sharing thru Scripture the ACTUATION of the Gospel = all TRUTH my Brother


Question for @civic @TibiasDad @Presby02

Who actuated 'your faith' ???

There is one Scripture that Says it ALL = 100% undeniable unless you think you stand Tall


Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Click to expand...
Actually no scripture states your faith was actuated

The author and finisher of our faith (τὸν τῆς πίστεως ἀρχηγὸν καὶ τελειωτὴν). The A. V. is misleading, and narrows the scope of the passage. For author, rend. leader or captain, and see on ch. 2:10. For finisher, rend. perfecter. For our faith, rend. faith or the faith. Not our Christian faith, but faith absolutely, as exhibited in the whole range of believers from Abel to Christ. Christ cannot be called the author or originator of faith, since the faith here treated existed and worked before Christ. Christ is the leader or captain of faith, in that he is the perfecter of faith. In himself he furnished the perfect development, the supreme example of faith, and in virtue of this he is the leader of the whole believing host in all time. Notice the recurrence of the favorite idea of perfecting. Comp. ch. 2:10; 5:9; 6:1; 7:11, 19, 28; 9:9; 10:1, 14; 11:40. Τελειωτής perfecter, N. T.o, oLXX, oClass.

Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 4; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 538.
 

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