An Article on free will

[DavidTree]

You still have not shown God believes for anyone

You made the statement



You have no foundation of God believing for you

You have no foundation of God believing for you

If you believe this, you cannot be SAVED

If you are SAVED it is because GOD Placed you on HIS FOUNDATION without your help!

The Disciples asked: Who then can be SAVED?
JESUS(our FOUNDATION) says: with man this is IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[Kermos]

No Kermos

You made the statement Doug believes you can chose Christ apart from Christ.

Well Doug holds you can believe in Christ because of the prevenient grace Christ has purchased for man

You have misrepresented Doug and therefore your claim is deceptive

No TomL.

@TibiasDad created a thing preceding unearned love which is followed immediately by his human free-will choice to seek God, so TibiasDad's adulteration to Paul's words are:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
that they would free-will choose to seek God, so they would successfully grope for Him and find Him, in cooperation with His preceding unearned love which is not far from those fleshly people not born of God who are in the same group as each one of us and having successfully chosen to seek God, they transition into God's earned love as payment for their free-will choosing God (The Book of Free-willians 17:27)		that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us (Acts 17:27)

So the following remains accurate.

This is explained in detail in post #4,275 - a post to which I question whether you read in detail since you responded so very quickly.

You would have to demonstrate how I have ever said anything close to that. I’m not holding my breath.

Doug

It is carefully explained in the below, TibiasDad and @DavidTree.

Phil 2:13 is about those who are already saved.

Doug

Philippians 2:13 is about born of God persons. A person must first be born of God in order to be able to righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God because the Word of God says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

You still fail to righteously address the following.

So you blame this on God causing you to write this…

Doug

I thank God for creating me anew and filling me with His mercy and grace. See post #4,015.

TibiasDad, notice that you wrote "potentially" in your more expensive thoughts of "Working toward us includes working in us as well, the changing of our understanding and perspective and thus, potentially, our desires and will. God must always move toward us first", below.

Therefore, you believe "it is God who is potentially at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure", yet your thoughts are out of accord with Apostolic testimony which is "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) which is active, absolute, and constant.

There is no free-will for man in the Gospel of Christ, so the enemies of Christ add free-will to their own evil message.

You are promoting the unbiblical concept of secondary cause which is a Free-willian Philosophy postulate, and your tightly coupled primary cause and secondary cause are addressed below and in post #4,015.

Your objection is disingenuous! Your argument is that we are acting of our own accord and power without God’s involvement! It implies, if not necessitates, that we obligate God to save us by our actions alone, regardless of God’s will or desire. Nothing can be further from the truth!

Working toward us includes working in us as well, the changing of our understanding and perspective and thus, potentially, our desires and will. God must always move toward us first; we would never be able to move toward him of our own accord. He must draw us toward him, seek us first in order for us to seek him; after all, we must have something to seek before we can seek it, mustn’t we? Thus, we cannot seek God if God doesn’t wish to be sought after; we can’t believe in a promise that hasn’t first been made. Man’s actions are always reactionary to God’s actions toward us.

God must first desire to save; God must first offer salvation; God must first design the means of salvation; God must first illuminate our need for salvation and convict us of our sin and guilt; all these must happen first before we can ever respond!


Doug

TibiasDad, God caused me to address your "God must always move toward us first" concept below, in the section where your "My whole post was in answer to why it is" post quotation can be found.

You have responded above, yet you responded with your heart's thoughts only, that is, the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9). Your thoughts neglected even a single quotation of the Word of God.

I have never said "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", nor does anyone else I know. It is a strawman argument!

Doug

I did not write that you said "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", but God caused me to write that you free-willians believe "apart from Christ, I chose Christ".

You failed to explain your "strawman argument", again, so I ask, will you explain why you claim "apart from Christ, I chose Christ" is a "strawman argument"?

Nonetheless, you fail to show repentance nor apology for the following.

You are splitting hairs, Kermos; I refer only to your comments as they pertain to our arguments, not our person. However , a reference to me or us, is a reference to our argument; for if I or they made said argument , you are calling the author of the “fraudulent” argument fraudulent as well. You cannot separate the character of the author from the words the author writes. If what I say is a lie, am I not a liar?

You committed your entire opening paragraph to attacking me instead of addressing the issue of your Free-willian Philosophy founded upon "apart from Christ, I chose Christ",

Read that which you posted to attack me, again, TibiasDad, "your choice of repeating certain concepts like calling us fraudulent". That is a verbatim quote of the words that came out of your heart.

A fraudster is a person who commits a fraudulent act. A fraunster is a real person, not a fraudulent person.

I never called any of you a fraudulent person. Your new statement "you are calling the author of the 'fraudulent' argument fraudulent as well" is in itself your, TibiasDad, fraudulently fabricated statement which you attributed to me in order for you to proceed to argue against your fraudulently fabricated statement instead of that which God caused me to write.

You and your free-willian colleagues have fraudulently fabricated false statements that you attributed to me, and you repeat your false witness against me in your attack post that you just composed.

My whole post was in answer to why it is a “strawman opponet”; we do not believe that we come to Christ sans God acting toward us first!

Your writing there negates the Word of God, as shall be visible in a moment.

You describe "God acting toward us first" instead of "God working in us first". The left column contains your traditions of men (Matthew 15:9), and the right column contains the Righteous Word of God!

The traditions of men		The Word of God
This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (The Book of Free-willians 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)
the one choosing to practice the Truth comes to the Light so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in him (The Book of Free-willians 3:21)		the one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21)
Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God[ (The Book of Free-willians 3:3)		Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3)
I praise You, man, that you have revealed these things to yourselves for you are the wise and intelligent ones who cause yourselves to repent and be born of God (self-willed man's sayings 11:25)		I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25)
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even according to your fleshly love, that you also love one another (The Book of Free-willians 13:34)		A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34)
You chose Me, but I choose everybody everywhere in all time (The Book of Free-willians 15:16)		you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)
I chose Jesus, so now Jesus must obey me to make me out of the world (self-willed man's sayings 15:19)		I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)

If a man cheats on his wife, does the repentant man mean the wife has to let me come home? No! Her desire and will is in complete control; she is the offended party, and she alone holds the power to allow reconciliation and restoration of the relationship.

The man’s begging and pleading does not obligate her to forgive or allow him to return; even if he desperately wants to do so! That’s why “works” or human desires are not able to save; if God doesn’t want to reconcile, all our efforts are wasted!

The gospel is God revealing that he wants to reconcile; that’s why we are given “the ministry of reconciliation”; our believing that he wants to means that our returning to him means we will be reconciled/ saved, because he has told us he wants to be reconciled. He made the first move; he makes the effectual choice; he says return to me and I will receive you. His promise is the only thing that affects anything. His promise is him saying “come home! I want to reconcile!” And as the old adage goes, it takes two to tango! Thus, we must want to be reconciled as well, thus our message, “Be reconciled to God”!

Your thesis of "If a man cheats on his wife, does the repentant man mean the wife has to let me come home? No!" is flawed on several points.

First, God forgives the repentant person. You wrote that God breaks God's promise!

Second, unlike your wife example, Holy Father actually sent His Beloved Son to atone for the sins of all His chosen people (John 1:29), so the One True God lovingly reconciled us Christians to Himself. Here is the Gospel of Jesus.

Third, you wrote "our believing that he wants to means that our returning to him means we will be reconciled/ saved, because he has told us he wants to be reconciled" and your believing there is a work of you instead of the work of God according to Free-willian Philosophy, so your foundation is your self-willed believing (2 Peter 2:9-10). For us Christians, believing is the work of God because the Word of God declares "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29).

Doug

Now, TibiasDad, back to the free-willian philosophy of "apart from Christ, I chose Christ" and your faulty accusation that it is a "strawman opponent".

You failed to explain your "strawman opponent", so I ask, will you try again? Or more importantly, will you believe the Word of God?

Here is the straightforward proposition for you. Six words in the following are in the color blue, and those six words I attribute to free-willian's hearts based on your Free-willian Philosophy. You claim that I ignorantly created a "strawman opponent", so I am now asking, will you please explain to me how you arrive at your "strawman opponent" conclusion about those six words which were presented to you in post #3,734 and are here to avoid any miscommunication?

“he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

A part of Free-willian Philosophy holds that a person along with the person's will are separated from God, and in that state of separation, that person can choose God; therefore, you free-willians believe that "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Christ reveals that the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), but your spirit declares that you control Christ with your purported choosing to believe in Christ which forces Christ to save you.

We Christians are in Christ exclusively because of the loving work of Christ, but you deny this fact (see 2 Peter 2:1 and John 3:3 and John 3:21 and John 15:5 and John 15:16, John 15:19, and John 6:29).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD THE FATHER, THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND THE SON OF GOD, ALL THE ONE TRUE GOD!!!

 

[TomL]

It's not the gospel alone. It is God who gives the gospel its power to convert.

UM in your doctrine it is unconditional election and irresistible grace which is the power to convert

 

[TomL]

No TomL.

@TibiasDad created a thing preceding unearned love which is followed immediately by his human free-will choice to seek God, so TibiasDad's adulteration to Paul's words are:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
that they would free-will choose to seek God, so they would successfully grope for Him and find Him, in cooperation with His preceding unearned love which is not far from those fleshly people not born of God who are in the same group as each one of us and having successfully chosen to seek God, they transition into God's earned love as payment for their free-will choosing God (The Book of Free-willians 17:27)		that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us (Acts 17:27)

So the following remains accurate.

This is explained in detail in post #4,275 - a post to which I question whether you read in detail since you responded so very quickly.



It is carefully explained in the below, TibiasDad and @DavidTree.



Philippians 2:13 is about born of God persons. A person must first be born of God in order to be able to righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God because the Word of God says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

You still fail to righteously address the following.



I thank God for creating me anew and filling me with His mercy and grace. See post #4,015.

TibiasDad, notice that you wrote "potentially" in your more expensive thoughts of "Working toward us includes working in us as well, the changing of our understanding and perspective and thus, potentially, our desires and will. God must always move toward us first", below.

Therefore, you believe "it is God who is potentially at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure", yet your thoughts are out of accord with Apostolic testimony which is "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) which is active, absolute, and constant.

There is no free-will for man in the Gospel of Christ, so the enemies of Christ add free-will to their own evil message.

You are promoting the unbiblical concept of secondary cause which is a Free-willian Philosophy postulate, and your tightly coupled primary cause and secondary cause are addressed below and in post #4,015.



TibiasDad, God caused me to address your "God must always move toward us first" concept below, in the section where your "My whole post was in answer to why it is" post quotation can be found.

You have responded above, yet you responded with your heart's thoughts only, that is, the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9). Your thoughts neglected even a single quotation of the Word of God.



I did not write that you said "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", but God caused me to write that you free-willians believe "apart from Christ, I chose Christ".

You failed to explain your "strawman argument", again, so I ask, will you explain why you claim "apart from Christ, I chose Christ" is a "strawman argument"?

Nonetheless, you fail to show repentance nor apology for the following.



You committed your entire opening paragraph to attacking me instead of addressing the issue of your Free-willian Philosophy founded upon "apart from Christ, I chose Christ",

Read that which you posted to attack me, again, TibiasDad, "your choice of repeating certain concepts like calling us fraudulent". That is a verbatim quote of the words that came out of your heart.

A fraudster is a person who commits a fraudulent act. A fraunster is a real person, not a fraudulent person.

I never called any of you a fraudulent person. Your new statement "you are calling the author of the 'fraudulent' argument fraudulent as well" is in itself your, TibiasDad, fraudulently fabricated statement which you attributed to me in order for you to proceed to argue against your fraudulently fabricated statement instead of that which God caused me to write.

You and your free-willian colleagues have fraudulently fabricated false statements that you attributed to me, and you repeat your false witness against me in your attack post that you just composed.



Your writing there negates the Word of God, as shall be visible in a moment.

You describe "God acting toward us first" instead of "God working in us first". The left column contains your traditions of men (Matthew 15:9), and the right column contains the Righteous Word of God!

The traditions of men		The Word of God
This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (The Book of Free-willians 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)
the one choosing to practice the Truth comes to the Light so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in him (The Book of Free-willians 3:21)		the one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21)
Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God[ (The Book of Free-willians 3:3)		Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3)
I praise You, man, that you have revealed these things to yourselves for you are the wise and intelligent ones who cause yourselves to repent and be born of God (self-willed man's sayings 11:25)		I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25)
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even according to your fleshly love, that you also love one another (The Book of Free-willians 13:34)		A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34)
You chose Me, but I choose everybody everywhere in all time (The Book of Free-willians 15:16)		you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)
I chose Jesus, so now Jesus must obey me to make me out of the world (self-willed man's sayings 15:19)		I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)

Your thesis of "If a man cheats on his wife, does the repentant man mean the wife has to let me come home? No!" is flawed on several points.

First, God forgives the repentant person. You wrote that God breaks God's promise!

Second, unlike your wife example, Holy Father actually sent His Beloved Son to atone for the sins of all His chosen people (John 1:29), so the One True God lovingly reconciled us Christians to Himself. Here is the Gospel of Jesus.

Third, you wrote "our believing that he wants to means that our returning to him means we will be reconciled/ saved, because he has told us he wants to be reconciled" and your believing there is a work of you instead of the work of God according to Free-willian Philosophy, so your foundation is your self-willed believing (2 Peter 2:9-10). For us Christians, believing is the work of God because the Word of God declares "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29).



Now, TibiasDad, back to the free-willian philosophy of "apart from Christ, I chose Christ" and your faulty accusation that it is a "strawman opponent".

You failed to explain your "strawman opponent", so I ask, will you try again? Or more importantly, will you believe the Word of God?

Here is the straightforward proposition for you. Six words in the following are in the color blue, and those six words I attribute to free-willian's hearts based on your Free-willian Philosophy. You claim that I ignorantly created a "strawman opponent", so I am now asking, will you please explain to me how you arrive at your "strawman opponent" conclusion about those six words which were presented to you in post #3,734 and are here to avoid any miscommunication?

“he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

A part of Free-willian Philosophy holds that a person along with the person's will are separated from God, and in that state of separation, that person can choose God; therefore, you free-willians believe that "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Christ reveals that the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), but your spirit declares that you control Christ with your purported choosing to believe in Christ which forces Christ to save you.

We Christians are in Christ exclusively because of the loving work of Christ, but you deny this fact (see 2 Peter 2:1 and John 3:3 and John 3:21 and John 15:5 and John 15:16, John 15:19, and John 6:29).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD THE FATHER, THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND THE SON OF GOD, ALL THE ONE TRUE GOD!!!

Again you ignore the facts

Doug holds man is given grace by which he is enabled to believe

You are posting falsehoods and bearing false witness

 

[TomL]

If you believe this, you cannot be SAVED

If you are SAVED it is because GOD Placed you on HIS FOUNDATION without your help!

The Disciples asked: Who then can be SAVED?
JESUS(our FOUNDATION) says: with man this is IMPOSSIBLE.

Once again the issue is does God believe for you?

You have posted nothing at all supporting that.

Jesus is speaking of salvation not the ability to believe.

 

[DavidTree]

Again you ignore the facts

Doug holds man is given grace by which he is enabled to believe

You are posting falsehoods and bearing false witness

Stubborn mules like you can NEVER SEE the FOUNDATION upon which you stand(IF you are even there???)

But you do like to cause strife with your self-will and closed mind.

As for me and my house = i will STAND on this FOUNDATION = "My Own Arm brought Salvation to ME"

One day you will understand......."with men this is IMPOSSIBLE"

 

[TomL]

God does NOT need to be saved.

Do you want to SEE or not?

Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to Please HIM

Where does SAVING FAITH come from?

Dead men can generate saving faith? = Go find that scripture!!!

i BELIEVE the WORD

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
even when we were dead in trespasses,
(WHO made us ALIVE)

GOD made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Saving faith comes from the word

If you believe man is incapable of belief without God believing for him then address these

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.



What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?

 

[TomL]

Stubborn mules like you can NEVER SEE the FOUNDATION upon which you stand(IF you are even there???)

But you do like to cause strife with your self-will and closed mind.

As for me and my house = i will STAND on this FOUNDATION = "My Own Arm brought Salvation to ME"

One day you will understand......."with men this is IMPOSSIBLE"

Address these

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.



What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?

Continuing posting from a verse which speaks of salvation as though it was speaking about the ability to believe does not further your claim

 

[DavidTree]

Saving faith comes from the word

If you believe man is incapable of belief without God believing for him then address these

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.



What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?

Saving faith comes from the word

YOUR statement is not TRUE

Do you know why??? = of course you Don't

Here is what makes your statement not true: John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

FOUNDATION FOUNDATION FOUNDATION

 

[TomL]

YOUR statement is not TRUE

Do you know why??? = of course you Don't

Here is what makes your statement not true: John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

FOUNDATION FOUNDATION FOUNDATION

Sorry the issue is does God believe for man

There is nothing at all in that verse about God believing for man

You have made a statement you cannot support

and have not addressed verses which op[pose your claim of God believing for man

ohn 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.



What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?

 

[Kermos]

Again you ignore the facts

Doug holds man is given grace by which he is enabled to believe

You are posting falsehoods and bearing false witness

Again, you ignore the facts!

@TibiasDad believes that "prevenient grace" is outside of man acting toward man but not in man; in other words, man is apart from God according to Doug's Free-willian Philosophy.

God’s grace is “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5) and “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21) and "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6).

Therefore, @TibiasDad created a thing preceding unearned love which is followed immediately by his human free-will choice to seek God, so TibiasDad's adulteration to Paul's words are:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
that they would free-will choose to seek God, so they would successfully grope for Him and find Him, in cooperation with His preceding unearned love which is not far from those fleshly people not born of God who are in the same group as each one of us and having successfully chosen to seek God, they transition into God's earned love as payment for their free-will choosing God (The Book of Free-willians 17:27)		that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us (Acts 17:27)

And, this is explained in detail in post #4,275 - a post to which I question whether you read in detail since you responded so very quickly.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE SAVIOR JESUS FULL OF GRACE!!!

 

[civic]

It's not the gospel alone. It is God who gives the gospel its power to convert.

It's still the gospel and Gods means of grace unto salvation. That's why its called in the Bible the gospel of our salvation.

 

[DavidTree]

Sorry the issue is does God believe for man

There is nothing at all in that verse about God believing for man

You have made a statement you cannot support

and have not addressed verses which op[pose your claim of God believing for man

ohn 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.



What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?

ALL the scriptures you post are YEAH and AMEN in CHRIST JESUS/the FOUNDATION = can you see that?

What you are doing thru self-will is attempting to slip UNDER the FOUNDATION via post FOUNDATION scripture!!!

You claim to have knowledge, and that you do, self-will knowledge!

 

[civic]

Sorry the issue is does God believe for man

There is nothing at all in that verse about God believing for man

You have made a statement you cannot support

and have not addressed verses which op[pose your claim of God believing for man

ohn 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.



What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?

ditto

 

[civic]

God does NOT need to be saved.

Do you want to SEE or not?

Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to Please HIM

Where does SAVING FAITH come from?

Dead men can generate saving faith? = Go find that scripture!!!

i BELIEVE the WORD

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
even when we were dead in trespasses,
(WHO made us ALIVE)

GOD made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

straw man- no one says they generate saving faith. Man believes , God saves.

 

[DavidTree]

It's still the gospel and Gods means of grace unto salvation. That's why its called in the Bible the gospel of our salvation.

This is CORRECT

Now OBSERVE how IT IS = "My Own Arm brought SALVATION to ME"

GENESIS my Brother = Chicken BEFORE eggs and GOD BEFORE all things including the Gospel of Grace by which we are SAVED!!!

examine post 4,293

 

[DavidTree]

straw man- no one says they generate saving faith. Man believes , God saves.

keep reading your post here until it sinks in as you produced a dichotomy

 

[civic]

keep reading your post here until it sinks in as you produced a dichotomy

Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you has saved you, healed you.

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( not the faith I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith (not the faith I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( not the faith I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith(not the faith I have give you ) has healed you."

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

FAITH PRECEDES REGENERATION

Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.


Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?


The new birth being born again comes through the message of the gospel. It doesn't come before but after faith.

1 Peter 1:21-24
Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. 22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word that was preached to you.

So Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ !

Romans 10
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life
7- conversion
8- repentance
9- justification
10- sanctification
11- glorification


hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

God causes me to examine TibiasDad's writing to discern the spirit of TomL's writing "that shows your position was falsified by Kermos".

TibiasDad, civic, and TomL, your spirit must be tested to see if your spiritual agreement is self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) or the image of Christ (Romans 8:29). The Apostle John wrote “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1).

I believe that every Christian is saved by grace through faith that is not of the Christian but is the loving gift of God because we Christians are the work of God:

​

by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work​

(Ephesians 2:8-10)​

​

Notice, TibiasDad created a second "grace" for God. TibiasDad calls his new "grace" the never mentioned in Holy Scripture "prevenient grace", and his "prevenient grace" is outside of man while at the same time as a person comes to Christ, but God’s grace is “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5) and “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21) and "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6).

Behold, TibiasDad added the phrase "prevenient grace" into the Apostle Paul's words:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though His prevenient grace is not far from each one of us (The Book of Free-willians 17:27)		that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us (Acts 17:27)

But your adulteration cannot exist because Lord Jesus says “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

See, TibiasDad added the free-willian "It indicates God’s working to prepare us for seeking him" concept into the Apostle Paul's words, so TibiasDad's adulteration to Paul's words expands:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
that they would free-will choose to seek God, that they would successfully grope for Him and find Him, though His prevenient grace is not far from each one of us (The Book of Free-willians 17:27)		that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us (Acts 17:27)

But your adulteration cannot exist because Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19).

Lo, TibiasDad added the non-born of God free-willian "allows us" group into the Apostle Paul's words, so TibiasDad's adulteration to Paul's words expands:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
that they would free-will choose to seek God, that they would successfully grope for Him and find Him, through His prevenient grace which is not far from those fleshly people not born of God who are in the same group as each one of us (The Book of Free-willians 17:27)		that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us (Acts 17:27)

But your adulteration cannot exist because Lord Jesus says "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life
" (John 6:63) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

TibiasDad opens his post by defining "prevenient grace" as "grace that precedes".

A few definitions are necessary for deeper clarity into your Free-willian Philosophy.

prevenient: preceding, before.

grace: unearned love.

prevenient grace: preceding unearned love.

The phrases "prevenient grace" and "preceding unearned love" are interchangeable, so the time has come to do exactly that valid substitution.

Your preceding unearned love is followed immediately by your human free-will choice to seek God or seek not God, so TibiasDad's adulteration to Paul's words expands:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
that they would free-will choose to seek God, so they would successfully grope for Him and find Him, in cooperation with His preceding unearned love which is not far from those fleshly people not born of God who are in the same group as each one of us and having successfully chosen to seek God, they transition into God's earned love as payment for their free-will choosing God (The Book of Free-willians 17:27)		that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us (Acts 17:27)

And continuing with definitions for your Free-willian Philosophy.

graceless: without unearned love.

pretentious graceless: subsequent earned love stage caused by free-willed man choosing God during God's preceding unearned love stage.

Your prevenient grace concept leads to your pretentious graceless concept. The grace of God ceases to be grace according to your thoughts.

Things are about to become even worse for your Free-willian Philosophy of prevenient grace.

As for the people who do not free-will choose to seek God, well, those people remain in God's preceding unearned love, and then upon death, those people in God's preceding unearned love are thrown by God into the lake of fire. This is according to your express Free-willian Philosophy.

TomL, your "that shows your position was falsified by Kermos" is in itself full of deception!

Clearly seen in the above, the three of you have a belief founded on your words that contradicts the Word of God, so your heart believes anti-truth.

Your spirit prophecies falsely about God and man (1 John 4:1). Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in we Christian's salvation and the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE OUR STRONG DELIVERER!!!

more gookgobbly and falsely accusing the brethren. Rev 12:10, John 8:44.

Night and day he accuses the people of God. (Comp. Zechariah 3:1, and Job 1:9; Job 2:5.)

like father, like son

For the accuser of our brethren is cast down - The phrase "our brethren" shows by whom this song is celebrated. It is sung in heaven; but it is by those who belonged to the redeemed church, and whose brethren were still suffering persecution and trial on the earth. It shows the tenderness of the tie which unites all the redeemed as brethren, whether on earth or in heaven; and it shows the interest which they "who have passed the flood" have in the trials, the sorrows, and the triumphs of those who are still upon the earth. We have here another appellation given to the great enemy - "accuser of the brethren." The word used here - κατήγορος katēgoros, in later editions of the New Testament κατήγωρ katēgōr - means properly "an accuser," one who blames another, or charges another with crime. The word occurs in John 8:10; Acts 23:30, Acts 23:35; Acts 24:8; Acts 25:16, Acts 25:18; Revelation 12:10, in all which places it is rendered "accuser" or "accusers," though only in the latter place applied to Satan. The verb frequently occurs, Matthew 12:10; Matthew 27:12; Mark 3:2; Mark 15:3, et al.

The description of Satan as an accuser accords with the opinion of the ancient Hebrews in regard to his character. Thus he is represented in Job 1:9-11; Job 2:4-5; Zechariah 3:1-2; 1 Chronicles 21:1. The phrase "of the brethren" refers to Christians, or to the people of God; and the meaning here is, that one of the characteristics of Satan - a characteristic so well known as to make it proper to designate him by it - is that he is an accuser of the righteous; that he is employed in bringing against them charges affecting their character and destroying their influence. The propriety of this appellation cannot be doubted. It is, as it has always been, one of the characteristics of Satan - one of the means by which he keeps up his influence in the world - to bring accusations against the people of God. Thus, under his suggestions, and by his agents, they are charged with hypocrisy; with insincerity; with being influenced by bad motives; with pursuing sinister designs under the cloak of religion; with secret vices and crimes. Thus it was that the martyrs were accused; thus it is that unfounded accusations are often brought against ministers of the gospel, palsying their power and diminishing their influence, or that when a professed Christian falls the church is made to suffer by an effort to cast suspicion on all who bear the Christian name. Perhaps the most skillful thing that Satan does, and the thing by which he most contributes to diminish the influence of the church, is in thus causing "accusations" to be brought against the people of God.barnes

Proverbs 6
16 There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Presby02]

It's still the gospel and Gods means of grace unto salvation. That's why its called in the Bible the gospel of our salvation.

It's not the only means. It's called in the Bible "the power of God" . Left that part out.

Hope I helped