An Article on free will

[TomL]

Well the Holy Spirit speaking thru Isaiah did not include any decision making of man in Salvation

"My own arm brought salvation for Me;"

Neither did the LORD Jesus Christ = "With man it is IMPOSSIBLE"

You are free to believe or not - it should not separate us from the LOVE of CHRIST

If you look more closely at Acts ch16 you will see more!

Of course it is God who saves

The issue however is believing

Civic has stated

I have stated

God does not believe for man

Nothing you post rebuts that

 

[DavidTree]

Of course it is God who saves

The issue however is believing

Civic has stated

I have stated

God does not believe for man

Nothing you post rebuts that

Well we all should be dwelling on this.

We KNOW JESUS only spoke precise Truth

Must man BELIEVE unto SALVATION = ABSOLUTELY = EVERYTIME

However, man did not generate his own hearing as JESUS said it is the FATHER doing the Calling and Teaching

Me thinks that inside of man is a heart, a spiritual one that we cannot see!

Only the LORD knows the intents, motives and thoughts of the heart.

Yet we SEE in His word that man's heart is desperately wicked = a spiritual disease that man cannot cure

This brings us back to JESUS saying: "With man it is IMPOSSIBLE" but "With GOD all things are Possible"

So forgive me @civic , forgive me @TomL , for i choose to accept to the ONE who KNOWS

This of course does not mean 'i am right', nor does it mean 'i am wrong' = it just means there is MORE we have yet to SEE

 

[TomL]

Well we all should be dwelling on this.

We KNOW JESUS only spoke precise Truth

Must man BELIEVE unto SALVATION = ABSOLUTELY = EVERYTIME

However, man did not generate his own hearing as JESUS said it is the FATHER doing the Calling and Teaching

Me thinks that inside of man is a heart, a spiritual one that we cannot see!

Only the LORD knows the intents, motives and thoughts of the heart.

Yet we SEE in His word that man's heart is desperately wicked = a spiritual disease that man cannot cure

This brings us back to JESUS saying: "With man it is IMPOSSIBLE" but "With GOD all things are Possible"

So forgive me @civic , forgive me @TomL , for i choose to accept to the ONE who KNOWS

This of course does not mean 'i am right', nor does it mean 'i am wrong' = it just means there is MORE we have yet to SEE

Um, there is no mention of calling.

There is of course teaching, revelation which must be learned, but that is man's responsibility

BTW Jesus does not say believing is impossible

and all these teach man is capable of belief

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.



God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would god blind someone who had no ability to see?

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

plus many others

 

[DavidTree]

So what have you posted which actually points to God believing for man?

Dwell on scripture = God calls it meditating on His word
HE makes me to lie down in green pastures
sheep have to chew their cud = so do we, for we are His Sheep

What points to your question???

i can only Point you back to His Word = My own arm brought salvation for Me

 

[TomL]

Dwell on scripture = God calls it meditating on His word
HE makes me to lie down in green pastures
sheep have to chew their cud = so do we, for we are His Sheep

What points to your question???

i can only Point you back to His Word = My own arm brought salvation for Me

Nothing there about God believing for man

 

[DavidTree]

Nothing there about God believing for man

Why did God bring Salvation to Himself?

Did God need to be Saved?

 

[TomL]

Why did God bring Salvation to Himself?

Did God need to be Saved?

Does not mean what you think

God's arm - Christ was how God would bring about salvation for man

 

[DavidTree]

Does not mean what you think

God's arm - Christ was how God would bring about salvation for man

Well of course = GOD came to earth = His Own ARM

Yet we can clearly see that God ONLY speaks of Himself = My own arm brought salvation for Me

This is how God communicates to us AND we are not to alter His direct statements ESPECIALLY when it is about HIMSELF.

i am confident in ALL Scripture and see no contradictions

 

[DavidTree]

Nothing there about God believing for man

ABSOLUTELY nothing there about man believing God for Salvation

Which is the SAME what JESUS says to you = "With man it is IMPOSSIBLE"

Try to understand what the Foundation is that God is laying out here for us.

 

[TomL]

ABSOLUTELY nothing there about man believing God for Salvation

Which is the SAME what JESUS says to you = "With man it is IMPOSSIBLE"

Try to understand what the Foundation is that God is laying out here for us.

Seriously

It's all over the bible

John 3:14–15 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him.

John 3:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 (NASB 2020) — 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

John 6:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:47 (NASB 2020) — 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (NASB 2020) — 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Romans 10:8–9 (NASB 2020) — 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

 

[TomL]

Well of course = GOD came to earth = His Own ARM

Yet we can clearly see that God ONLY speaks of Himself = My own arm brought salvation for Me

This is how God communicates to us AND we are not to alter His direct statements ESPECIALLY when it is about HIMSELF.

i am confident in ALL Scripture and see no contradictions

Still not speaking of God being saved

 

[Presby02]

yes and calvinists deny the gospel is Gods means of grace. I've had this debate with them 100's of times and they deny its the gospel

It's not the gospel alone. It is God who gives the gospel its power to convert.

 

[Presby02]

Prevenient Grace is grace that precedes, grace that goes before. It indicates God’s working to prepare us for seeking him. In fact, everything God has done is so that we might “seek him, and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not very far from any one of us.” (Acts 17:27)

So, in short, PG is any act of God that allows us to hear, understand and respond responsibly to the gospel and the grace of God.


Doug

I agree. Where we differ is you believe it's universal and not always effectual. I believe saving grace is for the elect and is always achieves its purpose. I think that is where we would part ways.

 

[Selah]

I surely believe in predestination and election. …. but I also believe with all my heart that Jesus Christ died on that Cross so that whomever believes in Him will find salvation.

He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."

- Psalm 91:1-2

Blessings like rain,
Selah

 

[Kermos]

Prevenient Grace is grace that precedes, grace that goes before. It indicates God’s working to prepare us for seeking him. In fact, everything God has done is so that we might “seek him, and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not very far from any one of us.” (Acts 17:27)

So, in short, PG is any act of God that allows us to hear, understand and respond responsibly to the gospel and the grace of God.


Doug

yes and calvinists deny the gospel is Gods means of grace. I've had this debate with them 100's of times and they deny its the gospel

And that shows your position was falsified by Kermos.

God causes me to examine TibiasDad's writing to discern the spirit of TomL's writing "that shows your position was falsified by Kermos".

TibiasDad, civic, and TomL, your spirit must be tested to see if your spiritual agreement is self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) or the image of Christ (Romans 8:29). The Apostle John wrote “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1).

I believe that every Christian is saved by grace through faith that is not of the Christian but is the loving gift of God because we Christians are the work of God:

by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work
(Ephesians 2:8-10)
​

Notice, TibiasDad created a second "grace" for God. TibiasDad calls his new "grace" the never mentioned in Holy Scripture "prevenient grace", and his "prevenient grace" is outside of man while at the same time as a person comes to Christ, but God’s grace is “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5) and “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21) and "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6).

Behold, TibiasDad added the phrase "prevenient grace" into the Apostle Paul's words:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though His prevenient grace is not far from each one of us (The Book of Free-willians 17:27)		that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us (Acts 17:27)

But your adulteration cannot exist because Lord Jesus says “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

See, TibiasDad added the free-willian "It indicates God’s working to prepare us for seeking him" concept into the Apostle Paul's words, so TibiasDad's adulteration to Paul's words expands:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
that they would free-will choose to seek God, that they would successfully grope for Him and find Him, though His prevenient grace is not far from each one of us (The Book of Free-willians 17:27)		that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us (Acts 17:27)

But your adulteration cannot exist because Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19).

Lo, TibiasDad added the non-born of God free-willian "allows us" group into the Apostle Paul's words, so TibiasDad's adulteration to Paul's words expands:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
that they would free-will choose to seek God, that they would successfully grope for Him and find Him, through His prevenient grace which is not far from those fleshly people not born of God who are in the same group as each one of us (The Book of Free-willians 17:27)		that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us (Acts 17:27)

But your adulteration cannot exist because Lord Jesus says "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life
" (John 6:63) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

TibiasDad opens his post by defining "prevenient grace" as "grace that precedes".

A few definitions are necessary for deeper clarity into your Free-willian Philosophy.

prevenient: preceding, before.

grace: unearned love.

prevenient grace: preceding unearned love.

The phrases "prevenient grace" and "preceding unearned love" are interchangeable, so the time has come to do exactly that valid substitution.

Your preceding unearned love is followed immediately by your human free-will choice to seek God or seek not God, so TibiasDad's adulteration to Paul's words expands:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
that they would free-will choose to seek God, so they would successfully grope for Him and find Him, in cooperation with His preceding unearned love which is not far from those fleshly people not born of God who are in the same group as each one of us and having successfully chosen to seek God, they transition into God's earned love as payment for their free-will choosing God (The Book of Free-willians 17:27)		that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us (Acts 17:27)

And continuing with definitions for your Free-willian Philosophy.

graceless: without unearned love.

pretentious graceless: subsequent earned love stage caused by free-willed man choosing God during God's preceding unearned love stage.

Your prevenient grace concept leads to your pretentious graceless concept. The grace of God ceases to be grace according to your thoughts.

Things are about to become even worse for your Free-willian Philosophy of prevenient grace.

As for the people who do not free-will choose to seek God, well, those people remain in God's preceding unearned love, and then upon death, those people in God's preceding unearned love are thrown by God into the lake of fire. This is according to your express Free-willian Philosophy.

TomL, your "that shows your position was falsified by Kermos" is in itself full of deception!

Clearly seen in the above, the three of you have a belief founded on your words that contradicts the Word of God, so your heart believes anti-truth.

Your spirit prophecies falsely about God and man (1 John 4:1). Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in we Christian's salvation and the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE OUR STRONG DELIVERER!!!

 

[DavidTree]

Seriously

It's all over the bible

John 3:14–15 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him.

John 3:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 (NASB 2020) — 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

John 6:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:47 (NASB 2020) — 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (NASB 2020) — 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Romans 10:8–9 (NASB 2020) — 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Jumping to other scriptures is GREAT when you want to BELIEVE all that God has Spoken

When you DIVERT to other scriptures when we are Examining the FOUNDATION of the House, is not applicable, at the FOUNDATION.

FIRST GOD lays HIS FOUNDATION = which is HIMSELF = no man or angels included

It's not the gospel alone. It is God who gives the gospel its power to convert.

100%
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1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000%%%%%%%

 

[DavidTree]

I surely believe in predestination and election. …. but I also believe with all my heart that Jesus Christ died on that Cross so that whomever believes in Him will find salvation.

He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."

- Psalm 91:1-2

Blessings like rain,
Selah

ALL TRUTH = Thank YOU for sharing the JOY of the LORD inside of YOU

HalleluYAH

 

[TomL]

Jumping to other scriptures is GREAT when you want to BELIEVE all that God has Spoken

When you DIVERT to other scriptures when we are Examining the FOUNDATION of the House is not applicable, at the FOUNDATION.

FIRST GOD lays HIS FOUNDATION = which is HIMSELF = no man or angels included


100%
1000%
100000%
10000000%
1000000000%
100000000000%
1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000%%%%%%%

You still have not shown God believes for anyone

You made the statement

ABSOLUTELY nothing there about man believing God for Salvation

Which is the SAME what JESUS says to you = "With man it is IMPOSSIBLE"

Try to understand what the Foundation is that God is laying out here for us.

You have no foundation of God believing for you

 

[DavidTree]

Still not speaking of God being saved

God does NOT need to be saved.

Do you want to SEE or not?

Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to Please HIM

Where does SAVING FAITH come from?

Dead men can generate saving faith? = Go find that scripture!!!

i BELIEVE the WORD

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
even when we were dead in trespasses,
(WHO made us ALIVE)

GOD made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[TomL]

God causes me to examine TibiasDad's writing to discern the spirit of TomL's writing "that shows your position was falsified by Kermos".

TibiasDad, civic, and TomL, your spirit must be tested to see if your spiritual agreement is self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) or the image of Christ (Romans 8:29). The Apostle John wrote “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1).

I believe that every Christian is saved by grace through faith that is not of the Christian but is the loving gift of God because we Christians are the work of God:

​

by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work​

(Ephesians 2:8-10)​

​

Notice, TibiasDad created a second "grace" for God. TibiasDad calls his new "grace" the never mentioned in Holy Scripture "prevenient grace", and his "prevenient grace" is outside of man while at the same time as a person comes to Christ, but God’s grace is “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5) and “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21) and "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6).

Behold, TibiasDad added the phrase "prevenient grace" into the Apostle Paul's words:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though His prevenient grace is not far from each one of us (The Book of Free-willians 17:27)		that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us (Acts 17:27)

But your adulteration cannot exist because Lord Jesus says “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

See, TibiasDad added the free-willian "It indicates God’s working to prepare us for seeking him" concept into the Apostle Paul's words, so TibiasDad's adulteration to Paul's words expands:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
that they would free-will choose to seek God, that they would successfully grope for Him and find Him, though His prevenient grace is not far from each one of us (The Book of Free-willians 17:27)		that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us (Acts 17:27)

But your adulteration cannot exist because Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19).

Lo, TibiasDad added the non-born of God free-willian "allows us" group into the Apostle Paul's words, so TibiasDad's adulteration to Paul's words expands:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
that they would free-will choose to seek God, that they would successfully grope for Him and find Him, through His prevenient grace which is not far from those fleshly people not born of God who are in the same group as each one of us (The Book of Free-willians 17:27)		that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us (Acts 17:27)

But your adulteration cannot exist because Lord Jesus says "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life
" (John 6:63) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

TibiasDad opens his post by defining "prevenient grace" as "grace that precedes".

A few definitions are necessary for deeper clarity into your Free-willian Philosophy.

prevenient: preceding, before.

grace: unearned love.

prevenient grace: preceding unearned love.

The phrases "prevenient grace" and "preceding unearned love" are interchangeable, so the time has come to do exactly that valid substitution.

Your preceding unearned love is followed immediately by your human free-will choice to seek God or seek not God, so TibiasDad's adulteration to Paul's words expands:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
that they would free-will choose to seek God, so they would successfully grope for Him and find Him, in cooperation with His preceding unearned love which is not far from those fleshly people not born of God who are in the same group as each one of us and having successfully chosen to seek God, they transition into God's earned love as payment for their free-will choosing God (The Book of Free-willians 17:27)		that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us (Acts 17:27)

And continuing with definitions for your Free-willian Philosophy.

graceless: without unearned love.

pretentious graceless: subsequent earned love stage caused by free-willed man choosing God during God's preceding unearned love stage.

Your prevenient grace concept leads to your pretentious graceless concept. The grace of God ceases to be grace according to your thoughts.

Things are about to become even worse for your Free-willian Philosophy of prevenient grace.

As for the people who do not free-will choose to seek God, well, those people remain in God's preceding unearned love, and then upon death, those people in God's preceding unearned love are thrown by God into the lake of fire. This is according to your express Free-willian Philosophy.

TomL, your "that shows your position was falsified by Kermos" is in itself full of deception!

Clearly seen in the above, the three of you have a belief founded on your words that contradicts the Word of God, so your heart believes anti-truth.

Your spirit prophecies falsely about God and man (1 John 4:1). Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in we Christian's salvation and the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE OUR STRONG DELIVERER!!!

No Kermos

You made the statement Doug believes you can chose Christ apart from Christ.

Well Doug holds you can believe in Christ because of the prevenient grace Christ has purchased for man

You have misrepresented Doug and therefore your claim is deceptive