An Article on free will

DavidTree said:
you guys(civic) are one stubborn mule

Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.(Message here from the Author of Life))

v44 (Evidence A) - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
v45 (EvidenceB) - It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’
v45 (Evidence C) - Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

A - no one comes to Christ unless the FATHER draws them = Get this ONE and you are on the STRAIGHT PATH

B - they shall be taught by God = It says God and not man

C - How did they hear? = learned from the FATHER

(A) FATHER + (B) God + (C) God = (D) comes to ME/JESUS

Now if you want to LOOK more closely we get more details on HOW the FATHER, then God leads to Christ

IMPORTANT TRUTH here = Do not miss out on this TRUTH
Click to expand...
Where did you address these?

All these are sufficient for faith

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Believing Moses is sufficient for faith in Jesus

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

The testimony of the woman was sufficient for faith.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

As is the testimony of the apostles


Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
As is the persasion offered by Paul

Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.



Convincing them Jesus was the Christ



Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

As is John's gospel

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

As is the reading of scripture

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not
DRESS

God works through means

Through Moses, through John the Baptist, through a samaritan woman, the apostles and the persuasion of Paul, scripture. God is not limited in his use of means and they are all sufficient for belief

John 6:44 quotes from the Old Testament concerning the spiritual sons of true believers in God.

Being taught of God may even be seen as a confession of Christ's deity

The verse is not an evidence of unconditional election or irresistible grace
 
TomL said:
Where did you address these?

All these are sufficient for faith

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Believing Moses is sufficient for faith in Jesus

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

The testimony of the woman was sufficient for faith.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

As is the testimony of the apostles


Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
As is the persasion offered by Paul

Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.



Convincing them Jesus was the Christ



Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

As is John's gospel

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

As is the reading of scripture

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not
DRESS

God works through means

Through Moses, through John the Baptist, through a samaritan woman, the apostles and the persuasion of Paul, scripture. God is not limited in his use of means and they are all sufficient for belief

John 6:44 quotes from the Old Testament concerning the spiritual sons of true believers in God.

Being taught of God may even be seen as a confession of Christ's deity

The verse is not an evidence of unconditional election or irresistible grace
Click to expand...
Amen
 
civic said:
Doug does not teach that which prevenient grace means God comes before any decision by man is made. God calls, draws, convicts, and man responds.
Click to expand...
I was fully assured i knew before BUT it is good to post:

prevenient /prĭ-vēn′yənt/

adjective​

  1. Coming before; preceding.
  2. Expectant; anticipatory.
  3. Going before; preceding; hence, preventive.
    Similar: preceding
Grace we know = Unmerited/Unearned FAVOR from God = "Not of works lest any man should boast"

"God calls, draws, convicts, and man responds." = 100% TRUTH

God's Grace leads us to Christ = "Not of works lest any man should boast"

AGREE
or
Disagree
and Why?
 
DavidTree said:
I was fully assured i knew before BUT it is good to post:

prevenient /prĭ-vēn′yənt/

adjective​

  1. Coming before; preceding.
  2. Expectant; anticipatory.
  3. Going before; preceding; hence, preventive.
    Similar: preceding
Grace we know = Unmerited/Unearned FAVOR from God = "Not of works lest any man should boast"

"God calls, draws, convicts, and man responds." = 100% TRUTH

God's Grace leads us to Christ = "Not of works lest any man should boast"

AGREE
or
Disagree
and Why?
Click to expand...
agree
 
DavidTree said:
Kermos,
Actually it was kind in it's own way.
Having humor is a sign of friendship where i grew up. Take things lightly

i have to deal with slanderers, backbiters and those who oppose the Holy Scriptures almost daily on these forums.
Click to expand...

Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death, so is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, “Was I not joking?”
(Proverbs 24:18-18)

I once was lost, but now I am found. I am in awe of God and God's acts. I thank Lord Jesus for the reverence He has given me for His salvation.

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE LORD JESUS FOR HIS EVERLASTING COVENANT!!!
 
DavidTree said:
@TibiasDad @Kermos

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent = 100% TRUTH

"We must believe in order to be saved! = 100% TRUTH
"That is the only action required," = 100% TRUTH that leads to MORE TRUTH which is Repentance from sin and our WALK

"it is always portrayed in scripture as a human responsibility and action" = 50/50 here Brother

"never a divine action or responsibility., never a divine action or responsibility." = 100% FALSE

i am not AGAINST you my Brother @TibiasDad nor am i against @Kermos

We can LOOK at the Scriptures and SEE together how the FIRST act of Salvation ALWAYS comes from God to man!

NEVER the reverse.

SHALOM
Click to expand...

The entire act of salvation is the work of God - both toward man as well as in man - because no Word of God states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree.

The gracious Benefactor of us Christians exclusively produces
  1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)
    AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Ephesians “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4)
    SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
  2. beneficiaries’ faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
    “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)
    AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10)
    AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)
    SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God
  3. beneficiaries’ fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
    “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)
    AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11)
    SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God
  4. beneficiaries’ birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) as well as “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8)
    AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
    SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is exclusively by/of/through God
  5. beneficiaries’ repent by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
    “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25)
    AND the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18)
    SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)
  6. beneficiaries’ love by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
    “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34)
    AND John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love)
    AND John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”)
    SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14)!

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LIVING GOD, JESUS CHRIST!!!
 
Kermos said:
Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death, so is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, “Was I not joking?”
(Proverbs 24:18-18)

I once was lost, but now I am found. I am in awe of God and God's acts. I thank Lord Jesus for the reverence He has given me for His salvation.

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE LORD JESUS FOR HIS EVERLASTING COVENANT!!!
Click to expand...
Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death, so is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, “Was I not joking?”
(Proverbs 24:18-18)

WOW - a little EXTREME there 'Kermos'

All you have to say is: i do not prefer friendly banter, nevertheless - good scripture misapplied
TibiasDad said:
And how is anything we say contrary to this?


Doug
Click to expand...
"it is always portrayed in scripture as a human responsibility and action" = 50/50 here Brother

"never a divine action , never a divine responsibility." = 100% FALSE

If there NEVER was a 'divine' response from within our spirit
AND
NEVER a divine action or responsibility = NO ONE could be SAVED

Now @civic @TomL @TibiasDad you can ask me - PROVE IT (in His love of course)
 
TibiasDad said:
Did you not say, “never a divine action or responsibility., never a divine action or responsibility." = 100% FALSE” ? If my assertion is false, then show me where God is required to believe!

Doug
Click to expand...
If my assertion is false, then show me where God is required to believe!
Click to expand...

Excellent question and the Way we are taught by God to Hear His Voice = from His Word.

i am waiting for @civic and @TomL to catch UP here, @Kermos has retreated as he views my words as firebrands/arrows/DEATH - oh my!
 

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