An Article on free will

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Kermos said:
It is carefully explained in the below, TibiasDad and @DavidTree.



Philippians 2:13 is about born of God persons. A person must first be born of God in order to be able to righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God because the Word of God says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

You still fail to righteously address the following.



I thank God for creating me anew and filling me with His mercy and grace. See post #4,015.

TibiasDad, notice that you wrote "potentially" in your more expensive thoughts of "Working toward us includes working in us as well, the changing of our understanding and perspective and thus, potentially, our desires and will. God must always move toward us first", below.

Therefore, you believe "it is God who is potentially at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure", yet your thoughts are out of accord with Apostolic testimony which is "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) which is active, absolute, and constant.

There is no free-will for man in the Gospel of Christ, so the enemies of Christ add free-will to their own evil message.

You are promoting the unbiblical concept of secondary cause which is a Free-willian Philosophy postulate, and your tightly coupled primary cause and secondary cause are addressed below and in post #4,015.



TibiasDad, God caused me to address your "God must always move toward us first" concept below, in the section where your "My whole post was in answer to why it is" post quotation can be found.

You have responded above, yet you responded with your heart's thoughts only, that is, the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9). Your thoughts neglected even a single quotation of the Word of God.



I did not write that you said "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", but God caused me to write that you free-willians believe "apart from Christ, I chose Christ".

You failed to explain your "strawman argument", again, so I ask, will you explain why you claim "apart from Christ, I chose Christ" is a "strawman argument"?

Nonetheless, you fail to show repentance nor apology for the following.



You committed your entire opening paragraph to attacking me instead of addressing the issue of your Free-willian Philosophy founded upon "apart from Christ, I chose Christ",

Read that which you posted to attack me, again, TibiasDad, "your choice of repeating certain concepts like calling us fraudulent". That is a verbatim quote of the words that came out of your heart.

A fraudster is a person who commits a fraudulent act. A fraunster is a real person, not a fraudulent person.

I never called any of you a fraudulent person. Your new statement "you are calling the author of the 'fraudulent' argument fraudulent as well" is in itself your, TibiasDad, fraudulently fabricated statement which you attributed to me in order for you to proceed to argue against your fraudulently fabricated statement instead of that which God caused me to write.

You and your free-willian colleagues have fraudulently fabricated false statements that you attributed to me, and you repeat your false witness against me in your attack post that you just composed.



Your writing there negates the Word of God, as shall be visible in a moment.

You describe "God acting toward us first" instead of "God working in us first". The left column contains your traditions of men (Matthew 15:9), and the right column contains the Righteous Word of God!
The traditions of menThe Word of God
This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(The Book of Free-willians 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)
the one choosing to practice the Truth comes to the Light so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in him
(The Book of Free-willians 3:21)		the one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21)
Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God[
(The Book of Free-willians 3:3)		Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3)
I praise You, man, that you have revealed these things to yourselves for you are the wise and intelligent ones who cause yourselves to repent and be born of God
(self-willed man's sayings 11:25)		I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes
(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25)
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even according to your fleshly love, that you also love one another
(The Book of Free-willians 13:34)		A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34)
You chose Me, but I choose everybody everywhere in all time
(The Book of Free-willians 15:16)		you did not choose Me, but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)
I chose Jesus, so now Jesus must obey me to make me out of the world
(self-willed man's sayings 15:19)		I chose you out of the world
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)



Your thesis of "If a man cheats on his wife, does the repentant man mean the wife has to let me come home? No!" is flawed on several points.

First, God forgives the repentant person. You wrote that God breaks God's promise!

Second, unlike your wife example, Holy Father actually sent His Beloved Son to atone for the sins of all His chosen people (John 1:29), so the One True God lovingly reconciled us Christians to Himself. Here is the Gospel of Jesus.

Third, you wrote "our believing that he wants to means that our returning to him means we will be reconciled/ saved, because he has told us he wants to be reconciled" and your believing there is a work of you instead of the work of God according to Free-willian Philosophy, so your foundation is your self-willed believing (2 Peter 2:9-10). For us Christians, believing is the work of God because the Word of God declares "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29).



Now, TibiasDad, back to the free-willian philosophy of "apart from Christ, I chose Christ" and your faulty accusation that it is a "strawman opponent".

You failed to explain your "strawman opponent", so I ask, will you try again? Or more importantly, will you believe the Word of God?

Here is the straightforward proposition for you. Six words in the following are in the color blue, and those six words I attribute to free-willian's hearts based on your Free-willian Philosophy. You claim that I ignorantly created a "strawman opponent", so I am now asking, will you please explain to me how you arrive at your "strawman opponent" conclusion about those six words which were presented to you in post #3,734 and are here to avoid any miscommunication?

“he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

A part of Free-willian Philosophy holds that a person along with the person's will are separated from God, and in that state of separation, that person can choose God; therefore, you free-willians believe that "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Christ reveals that the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), but your spirit declares that you control Christ with your purported choosing to believe in Christ which forces Christ to save you.

We Christians are in Christ exclusively because of the loving work of Christ, but you deny this fact (see 2 Peter 2:1 and John 3:3 and John 3:21 and John 15:5 and John 15:16, John 15:19, and John 6:29).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD THE FATHER, THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND THE SON OF GOD, ALL THE ONE TRUE GOD!!!
Click to expand...
Thank You Kermos,

Please review post 4,169 and 4,172
 
Kermos said:
It is carefully explained in the below, TibiasDad and @DavidTree.



Philippians 2:13 is about born of God persons. A person must first be born of God in order to be able to righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God because the Word of God says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

You still fail to righteously address the following.



I thank God for creating me anew and filling me with His mercy and grace. See post #4,015.

TibiasDad, notice that you wrote "potentially" in your more expensive thoughts of "Working toward us includes working in us as well, the changing of our understanding and perspective and thus, potentially, our desires and will. God must always move toward us first", below.

Therefore, you believe "it is God who is potentially at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure", yet your thoughts are out of accord with Apostolic testimony which is "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) which is active, absolute, and constant.

There is no free-will for man in the Gospel of Christ, so the enemies of Christ add free-will to their own evil message.

You are promoting the unbiblical concept of secondary cause which is a Free-willian Philosophy postulate, and your tightly coupled primary cause and secondary cause are addressed below and in post #4,015.



TibiasDad, God caused me to address your "God must always move toward us first" concept below, in the section where your "My whole post was in answer to why it is" post quotation can be found.

You have responded above, yet you responded with your heart's thoughts only, that is, the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9). Your thoughts neglected even a single quotation of the Word of God.



I did not write that you said "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", but God caused me to write that you free-willians believe "apart from Christ, I chose Christ".

You failed to explain your "strawman argument", again, so I ask, will you explain why you claim "apart from Christ, I chose Christ" is a "strawman argument"?

Nonetheless, you fail to show repentance nor apology for the following.



You committed your entire opening paragraph to attacking me instead of addressing the issue of your Free-willian Philosophy founded upon "apart from Christ, I chose Christ",

Read that which you posted to attack me, again, TibiasDad, "your choice of repeating certain concepts like calling us fraudulent". That is a verbatim quote of the words that came out of your heart.

A fraudster is a person who commits a fraudulent act. A fraunster is a real person, not a fraudulent person.

I never called any of you a fraudulent person. Your new statement "you are calling the author of the 'fraudulent' argument fraudulent as well" is in itself your, TibiasDad, fraudulently fabricated statement which you attributed to me in order for you to proceed to argue against your fraudulently fabricated statement instead of that which God caused me to write.

You and your free-willian colleagues have fraudulently fabricated false statements that you attributed to me, and you repeat your false witness against me in your attack post that you just composed.



Your writing there negates the Word of God, as shall be visible in a moment.

You describe "God acting toward us first" instead of "God working in us first". The left column contains your traditions of men (Matthew 15:9), and the right column contains the Righteous Word of God!
The traditions of menThe Word of God
This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(The Book of Free-willians 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)
the one choosing to practice the Truth comes to the Light so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in him
(The Book of Free-willians 3:21)		the one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21)
Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God[
(The Book of Free-willians 3:3)		Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3)
I praise You, man, that you have revealed these things to yourselves for you are the wise and intelligent ones who cause yourselves to repent and be born of God
(self-willed man's sayings 11:25)		I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes
(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25)
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even according to your fleshly love, that you also love one another
(The Book of Free-willians 13:34)		A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34)
You chose Me, but I choose everybody everywhere in all time
(The Book of Free-willians 15:16)		you did not choose Me, but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)
I chose Jesus, so now Jesus must obey me to make me out of the world
(self-willed man's sayings 15:19)		I chose you out of the world
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)



Your thesis of "If a man cheats on his wife, does the repentant man mean the wife has to let me come home? No!" is flawed on several points.

First, God forgives the repentant person. You wrote that God breaks God's promise!

Second, unlike your wife example, Holy Father actually sent His Beloved Son to atone for the sins of all His chosen people (John 1:29), so the One True God lovingly reconciled us Christians to Himself. Here is the Gospel of Jesus.

Third, you wrote "our believing that he wants to means that our returning to him means we will be reconciled/ saved, because he has told us he wants to be reconciled" and your believing there is a work of you instead of the work of God according to Free-willian Philosophy, so your foundation is your self-willed believing (2 Peter 2:9-10). For us Christians, believing is the work of God because the Word of God declares "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29).



Now, TibiasDad, back to the free-willian philosophy of "apart from Christ, I chose Christ" and your faulty accusation that it is a "strawman opponent".

You failed to explain your "strawman opponent", so I ask, will you try again? Or more importantly, will you believe the Word of God?

Here is the straightforward proposition for you. Six words in the following are in the color blue, and those six words I attribute to free-willian's hearts based on your Free-willian Philosophy. You claim that I ignorantly created a "strawman opponent", so I am now asking, will you please explain to me how you arrive at your "strawman opponent" conclusion about those six words which were presented to you in post #3,734 and are here to avoid any miscommunication?

“he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

A part of Free-willian Philosophy holds that a person along with the person's will are separated from God, and in that state of separation, that person can choose God; therefore, you free-willians believe that "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Christ reveals that the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), but your spirit declares that you control Christ with your purported choosing to believe in Christ which forces Christ to save you.

We Christians are in Christ exclusively because of the loving work of Christ, but you deny this fact (see 2 Peter 2:1 and John 3:3 and John 3:21 and John 15:5 and John 15:16, John 15:19, and John 6:29).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD THE FATHER, THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND THE SON OF GOD, ALL THE ONE TRUE GOD!!!
Click to expand...
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD THE FATHER, THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND THE SON OF GOD, ALL THE ONE TRUE GOD!!!
Click to expand...
Absolutely True
 
Kermos said:
TibiasDad, notice that you wrote "potentially" in your more expensive thoughts of "Working toward us includes working in us as well, the changing of our understanding and perspective and thus, potentially, our desires and will. God must always move toward us first", below.

Therefore, you believe "it is God who is potentially at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure", yet your thoughts are out of accord with Apostolic testimony which is "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) which is active, absolute, and constant.
Click to expand...
If you were writing the above to be published, you would be laughed out of the room. No editor would allow his name to be associated such a statement!

I have never said “potentially” in the context of Phil 2:13; and that is why it is a strawman argument! My original comment is about a pre-conversion context, not a post-conversion context.

The gospel being presented to a group of unbelievers is always a potential circumstance. Some may repent (change their mind) after hearing the gospel, and others may not! Through the revelation of the gospel, God’s word potentially could change the minds of any one of the hearers.

Unless you can quote me directly saying what you surmise me to assert, you are making false claims about me and are exposing the weakness of your own abilities to argue against my opposing beliefs.

Doug
 
Last edited:
Kermos said:
Third, you wrote "our believing that he wants to means that our returning to him means we will be reconciled/ saved, because he has told us he wants to be reconciled" and your believing there is a work of you instead of the work of God according to Free-willian Philosophy, so your foundation is your self-willed believing (2 Peter 2:9-10). For us Christians, believing is the work of God because the Word of God declares "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29).
Click to expand...
Believing and not believing is always a human action. Furthermore, it is not a “work”, nor can it be for “faith/believing” is the direct opposite of “works” in Eph 2:8-9!

We must believe in order to be saved! That is the only action required, and it is always portrayed in scripture as a human responsibility and action, never a divine action or responsibility.

The context of John 6:29 is a question regarding “What must we do to do the works God requires?” (6:28) and Jesus responds that the “work of God” is that “you believe in the one whom he has sent”!

It is not God’s work to believe! It is ours to believe! We are saved if we believe, and are condemned already because we have not believed. (John 3:18)


Doug
 
civic said:
good scriptures and the rest of your ideas are gookgobbly.
Click to expand...

Look at your actions below, civic.

civic said:
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Fatalism/ determinism is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
Click to expand...

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:5), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:5-8), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN GOD!!!
 
TibiasDad said:
Believing and not believing is always a human action. Furthermore, it is not a “work”, nor can it be for “faith/believing” is the direct opposite of “works” in Eph 2:8-9!

We must believe in order to be saved! That is the only action required, and it is always portrayed in scripture as a human responsibility and action, never a divine action or responsibility.

The context of John 6:29 is a question regarding “What must we do to do the works God requires?” (6:28) and Jesus responds that the “work of God” is that “you believe in the one whom he has sent”!

It is not God’s work to believe! It is ours to believe! We are saved if we believe, and are condemned already because we have not believed. (John 3:18)


Doug
Click to expand...
@TibiasDad @Kermos

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent = 100% TRUTH

"We must believe in order to be saved! = 100% TRUTH
"That is the only action required," = 100% TRUTH that leads to MORE TRUTH which is Repentance from sin and our WALK

"it is always portrayed in scripture as a human responsibility and action" = 50/50 here Brother

"never a divine action or responsibility., never a divine action or responsibility." = 100% FALSE

i am not AGAINST you my Brother @TibiasDad nor am i against @Kermos

We can LOOK at the Scriptures and SEE together how the FIRST act of Salvation ALWAYS comes from God to man!

NEVER the reverse.

SHALOM
 
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