An Article on free will

[DavidTree]

Verse 45 explains verse 44

NO it does not!

That is a blatant attempt at REVERSING the Order of Scripture!!!

Reversing and altering scripture to conform to a man-made doctrine is the twisting way of the Serpent.

verse 45 explains how God actuates His Salvation in the world = God is opening the ears to the preaching of the word

JESUS says: STRAIGHT is the PATH that leads to Life.

@civic @TomL

 

[TomL]

NO it does not!

That is a blatant attempt at REVERSING the Order of Scripture!!!

Reversing and altering scripture to conform to a man-made doctrine is the twisting way of the Serpent.

verse 45 explains how God actuates His Salvation in the world = God is opening the ears to the preaching of the word

JESUS says: STRAIGHT is the PATH that leads to Life.

@civic @TomL

Sorry there is no statement about opening the ears in john 6:45

You are reading your theology into the verse

All these are sufficient for faith

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Believing Moses is sufficient for faith in Jesus

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

The testimony of the woman was sufficient for faith.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

As is the testimony of the apostles


Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
As is the persasion offered by Paul

Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.



Convincing them Jesus was the Christ



Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

As is John's gospel

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

As is the reading of scripture

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not

 

[civic]

Verse 45 explains verse 44

Yep

 

[TomL]

Yep

Though some want to ignore that and many other verses showing what is sufficient for faith

 

[Presby02]

Sorry there is no statement about opening the ears in john 6:45

You are reading your theology into the verse

All these are sufficient for faith

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Believing Moses is sufficient for faith in Jesus

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

The testimony of the woman was sufficient for faith.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

As is the testimony of the apostles


Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
As is the persasion offered by Paul

Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.



Convincing them Jesus was the Christ



Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

As is John's gospel

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

As is the reading of scripture

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not

Yet it is by the Spirit we understand the things of God.

 

[TomL]

Yet it is by the Spirit we understand the things of God.

The Spirit gave the good news to the apostles and others who propagated it and were capable of being believed

It's in all those scriptures you ignored

All these are sufficient for faith

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Believing Moses is sufficient for faith in Jesus

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

The testimony of the woman was sufficient for faith.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

As is the testimony of the apostles


Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
As is the persasion offered by Paul

Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.



Convincing them Jesus was the Christ



Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

As is John's gospel

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

As is the reading of scripture

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not

 

[Presby02]

The Spirit gave the good news to the apostles and others who propagated it and were capable of being believed

It's in all those scriptures you ignored

All these are sufficient for faith

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Believing Moses is sufficient for faith in Jesus

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

The testimony of the woman was sufficient for faith.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

As is the testimony of the apostles


Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
As is the persasion offered by Paul

Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.



Convincing them Jesus was the Christ



Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

As is John's gospel

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

As is the reading of scripture

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not

It is the Spirit that gives understanding to the things of God. See 1 Corinthians 2 1-14

You ignore scripture

 

[DavidTree]

Sorry there is no statement about opening the ears in john 6:45

You are reading your theology into the verse

All these are sufficient for faith

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Believing Moses is sufficient for faith in Jesus

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

The testimony of the woman was sufficient for faith.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

As is the testimony of the apostles


Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
As is the persasion offered by Paul

Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.



Convincing them Jesus was the Christ



Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

As is John's gospel

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

As is the reading of scripture

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not

you guys(civic) are one stubborn mule

Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.(Message here from the Author of Life))

v44 (Evidence A) - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
v45 (EvidenceB) - It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’
v45 (Evidence C) - Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

A - no one comes to Christ unless the FATHER draws them = Get this ONE and you are on the STRAIGHT PATH

B - they shall be taught by God = It says God and not man

C - How did they hear? = learned from the FATHER

(A) FATHER + (B) God + (C) God = (D) comes to ME/JESUS

Now if you want to LOOK more closely we get more details on HOW the FATHER, then God leads to Christ

IMPORTANT TRUTH here = Do not miss out on this TRUTH

 

[civic]

1-Those who first LISTEN and LEARN from the Father
2- Are the same ones who come to the Father.

So those who already have listened and learned from the Father are the ones who come to Me- Jesus words.

See John 6:45.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Presby02]

1-Those who first LISTEN and LEARN from the Father
2- Are the same ones who come to the Father.

So those who already have listened and learned from the Father are the ones who come to Me- Jesus words.

See John 6:45.

hope this helps !!!

Exactly. That's how they are drawn. Not why they are drawn.

 

[DavidTree]

1-Those who first LISTEN and LEARN from the Father
2- Are the same ones who come to the Father.

So those who already have listened and learned from the Father are the ones who come to Me- Jesus words.

See John 6:45.

hope this helps !!!

1-Those who first LISTEN and LEARN from the Father
REVERSE Order is the way of the Serpent = you added first to the unsaved who are being drawn

You should say: those who hear/listen, FIRST heard the call of the FATHER

SEE the difference?

 

[TibiasDad]

So what is prevenient grace and how exactly does it work from your perspective? Does it involve the Spirit?

Take a breath

Prevenient Grace is grace that precedes, grace that goes before. It indicates God’s working to prepare us for seeking him. In fact, everything God has done is so that we might “seek him, and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not very far from any one of us.” (Acts 17:27)

So, in short, PG is any act of God that allows us to hear, understand and respond responsibly to the gospel and the grace of God.


Doug

 

[DavidTree]

1-Those who first LISTEN and LEARN from the Father
2- Are the same ones who come to the Father.

So those who already have listened and learned from the Father are the ones who come to Me- Jesus words.

See John 6:45.

hope this helps !!!

Therefore everyone who has heard(past tense) and learned from the Father(BEGINNING)

FATHER is FIRST, hearing comes second

 

[civic]

1-Those who first LISTEN and LEARN from the Father
REVERSE Order is the way of the Serpent = you added first to the unsaved who are being drawn

You should say: the who hear/listen FIRST heard the call of the FATHER

SEE the difference?

God does not say what you claim. Here is the verse and the order in which " they come to Christ "

"Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

1-Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him
2-comes to me.

that is the sequence.

 

[TibiasDad]

never a divine action or responsibility., never a divine action or responsibility." = 100% FALSE

Then quote where God is required to believe…


Doug

 

[civic]

Prevenient Grace is grace that precedes, grace that goes before. It indicates God’s working to prepare us for seeking him. In fact, everything God has done is so that we might “seek him, and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not very far from any one of us.” (Acts 17:27)

So, in short, PG is any act of God that allows us to hear, understand and respond responsibly to the gospel and the grace of God.


Doug

yes and calvinists deny the gospel is Gods means of grace. I've had this debate with them 100's of times and they deny its the gospel

 

[DavidTree]

God does not say what you claim. Here is the verse and the order in which " they come to Christ "

"Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

1-Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him
2-comes to me.

that is the sequence.

Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

v44 (Evidence A) - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
v45 (EvidenceB) - It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’
v45 (Evidence C) - Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

A - no one comes to Christ unless the FATHER draws them = Get this ONE and you are on the STRAIGHT PATH

B - they shall be taught by God = It says God and not man

C - How did they hear? = learned from the FATHER

(A) FATHER + (B) God + (C) God = (D) comes to ME/JESUS

Now if you want to LOOK more closely we get more details on HOW the FATHER, then God leads to Christ

IMPORTANT TRUTH here = Do not miss out on this TRUTH

 

[DavidTree]

Then quote where God is required to believe…


Doug

Are you serious? "quote where God is required to believe..."

Why would you ever think such?

 

[TomL]

Prevenient Grace is grace that precedes, grace that goes before. It indicates God’s working to prepare us for seeking him. In fact, everything God has done is so that we might “seek him, and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not very far from any one of us.” (Acts 17:27)

So, in short, PG is any act of God that allows us to hear, understand and respond responsibly to the gospel and the grace of God.


Doug

And that shows your position was falsified by Kermos.

 

[TomL]

Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who https://biblehub.com/nkjv/john/6.htm#footnoteshas heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

v44 (Evidence A) - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
v45 (EvidenceB) - It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’
v45 (Evidence C) - Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

A - no one comes to Christ unless the FATHER draws them = Get this ONE and you are on the STRAIGHT PATH

B - they shall be taught by God = It says God and not man

C - How did they hear? = learned from the FATHER

(A) FATHER + (B) God + (C) God = (D) comes to ME/JESUS

Now if you want to LOOK more closely we get more details on HOW the FATHER, then God leads to Christ

IMPORTANT TRUTH here = Do not miss out on this TRUTH

Of course the God is the ultimate source of revelation but he uses means

thus

All these are sufficient for faith

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Believing Moses is sufficient for faith in Jesus

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

The testimony of the woman was sufficient for faith.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

As is the testimony of the apostles


Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
As is the persasion offered by Paul

Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.



Convincing them Jesus was the Christ



Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

As is John's gospel

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

As is the reading of scripture

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not