An Article on free will

[TomL]

Never was a Lutheran or attended Lutheran church/schooling.

OK

Believing in free will then you affirm man is free to respond to God's revelation in either a positive or negative manner?

 

[DavidTree]

I was not talking about the yelling

Faith begins with the revelation of God

Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Excellent scripture/Truth on the MECHANISM of preaching the Gospel = this is NOT where it Begins but the MECHANISM/ACTUATION

Please look up the word 'actuation'

 

[TomL]

I'm glad you are not a CLAVINIST

Ah I missed that

CLAVINIST

 

[civic]

Ah I missed that

CLAVINIST

I got a chuckle out of that one lol.

 

[DavidTree]

I'm glad you are not a CLAVINIST

i am glad i was directed to CHRIST and all the denominations HE exposed me to and to BAM and YOU

Does that make me a BAMIVIST?

 

[DavidTree]

I got a chuckle out of that one lol.

Yeah, i seldom check for spelling = which makes for a Good Laugh or two!

 

[civic]

Yeah, i seldom check for spelling = which makes for a Good Laugh or two!

sometimes we get the spelling police around here lol.

 

[TomL]

Excellent scripture/Truth on the MECHANISM of preaching the Gospel = this is NOT where it Begins but the MECHANISM/ACTUATION

Please look up the word 'actuation'

Please get to the point

Are you arguing for regeneration before faith?

 

[DavidTree]

Please get to the point

Are you arguing for regeneration before faith?

Never heard that before!


Very simple = A comes before B

Before there was Adam/mankind there was ELOHIM(God)

Before there was a man/Adam, ELOHIM created man from the dust of the earth.

Before Adam became a "living soul" there was ELOHIM breathing into 'the man of dust' = Genesis

the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being

Before we HEAR we are drawn in the same way the man of dust was called forth.

A comes before B

 

[DavidTree]

Please get to the point

Are you arguing for regeneration before faith?

post 4,169 edited

 

[TomL]

post 4,169 edited

Expound

Are you claiming men must be given the Spirit before they believe?

Made alive regenerated before they can believe?

 

[DavidTree]

Expound

Are you claiming men must be given the Spirit before they believe?

Made alive regenerated before they can believe?

Not at all.

You posted excellent scriptures on the 'actuation' of the Gospel/Salvation.

There must be an actuation of Salvation.

BEFORE the 'actuation' on earth, the FATHER calling us to Christ and our free will responds and for others they fall away = parable of the sower/seed.

 

[TomL]

Not at all.

You posted excellent scriptures on the 'actuation' of the Gospel/Salvation.

There must be an actuation of Salvation.

BEFORE the 'actuation' on earth, the FATHER calling us to Christ and our free will responds and for others they fall away = parable of the sower/seed.

Men are called by the gospel, that is the revelation which I noted

Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Kermos]

You would have to demonstrate how I have ever said anything close to that. I’m not holding my breath.

Doug

It is carefully explained in the below, TibiasDad and @DavidTree.

Phil 2:13 is about those who are already saved.

Doug

Philippians 2:13 is about born of God persons. A person must first be born of God in order to be able to righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God because the Word of God says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

You still fail to righteously address the following.

So you blame this on God causing you to write this…

Doug

I thank God for creating me anew and filling me with His mercy and grace. See post #4,015.

TibiasDad, notice that you wrote "potentially" in your more expensive thoughts of "Working toward us includes working in us as well, the changing of our understanding and perspective and thus, potentially, our desires and will. God must always move toward us first", below.

Therefore, you believe "it is God who is potentially at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure", yet your thoughts are out of accord with Apostolic testimony which is "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) which is active, absolute, and constant.

There is no free-will for man in the Gospel of Christ, so the enemies of Christ add free-will to their own evil message.

You are promoting the unbiblical concept of secondary cause which is a Free-willian Philosophy postulate, and your tightly coupled primary cause and secondary cause are addressed below and in post #4,015.

Your objection is disingenuous! Your argument is that we are acting of our own accord and power without God’s involvement! It implies, if not necessitates, that we obligate God to save us by our actions alone, regardless of God’s will or desire. Nothing can be further from the truth!

Working toward us includes working in us as well, the changing of our understanding and perspective and thus, potentially, our desires and will. God must always move toward us first; we would never be able to move toward him of our own accord. He must draw us toward him, seek us first in order for us to seek him; after all, we must have something to seek before we can seek it, mustn’t we? Thus, we cannot seek God if God doesn’t wish to be sought after; we can’t believe in a promise that hasn’t first been made. Man’s actions are always reactionary to God’s actions toward us.

God must first desire to save; God must first offer salvation; God must first design the means of salvation; God must first illuminate our need for salvation and convict us of our sin and guilt; all these must happen first before we can ever respond!


Doug

TibiasDad, God caused me to address your "God must always move toward us first" concept below, in the section where your "My whole post was in answer to why it is" post quotation can be found.

You have responded above, yet you responded with your heart's thoughts only, that is, the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9). Your thoughts neglected even a single quotation of the Word of God.

I have never said "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", nor does anyone else I know. It is a strawman argument!

Doug

I did not write that you said "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", but God caused me to write that you free-willians believe "apart from Christ, I chose Christ".

You failed to explain your "strawman argument", again, so I ask, will you explain why you claim "apart from Christ, I chose Christ" is a "strawman argument"?

Nonetheless, you fail to show repentance nor apology for the following.

You are splitting hairs, Kermos; I refer only to your comments as they pertain to our arguments, not our person. However , a reference to me or us, is a reference to our argument; for if I or they made said argument , you are calling the author of the “fraudulent” argument fraudulent as well. You cannot separate the character of the author from the words the author writes. If what I say is a lie, am I not a liar?

You committed your entire opening paragraph to attacking me instead of addressing the issue of your Free-willian Philosophy founded upon "apart from Christ, I chose Christ",

Read that which you posted to attack me, again, TibiasDad, "your choice of repeating certain concepts like calling us fraudulent". That is a verbatim quote of the words that came out of your heart.

A fraudster is a person who commits a fraudulent act. A fraunster is a real person, not a fraudulent person.

I never called any of you a fraudulent person. Your new statement "you are calling the author of the 'fraudulent' argument fraudulent as well" is in itself your, TibiasDad, fraudulently fabricated statement which you attributed to me in order for you to proceed to argue against your fraudulently fabricated statement instead of that which God caused me to write.

You and your free-willian colleagues have fraudulently fabricated false statements that you attributed to me, and you repeat your false witness against me in your attack post that you just composed.

My whole post was in answer to why it is a “strawman opponet”; we do not believe that we come to Christ sans God acting toward us first!

Your writing there negates the Word of God, as shall be visible in a moment.

You describe "God acting toward us first" instead of "God working in us first". The left column contains your traditions of men (Matthew 15:9), and the right column contains the Righteous Word of God!

The traditions of men		The Word of God
This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (The Book of Free-willians 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)
the one choosing to practice the Truth comes to the Light so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in him (The Book of Free-willians 3:21)		the one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21)
Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God[ (The Book of Free-willians 3:3)		Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3)
I praise You, man, that you have revealed these things to yourselves for you are the wise and intelligent ones who cause yourselves to repent and be born of God (self-willed man's sayings 11:25)		I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25)
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even according to your fleshly love, that you also love one another (The Book of Free-willians 13:34)		A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34)
You chose Me, but I choose everybody everywhere in all time (The Book of Free-willians 15:16)		you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)
I chose Jesus, so now Jesus must obey me to make me out of the world (self-willed man's sayings 15:19)		I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)

If a man cheats on his wife, does the repentant man mean the wife has to let me come home? No! Her desire and will is in complete control; she is the offended party, and she alone holds the power to allow reconciliation and restoration of the relationship.

The man’s begging and pleading does not obligate her to forgive or allow him to return; even if he desperately wants to do so! That’s why “works” or human desires are not able to save; if God doesn’t want to reconcile, all our efforts are wasted!

The gospel is God revealing that he wants to reconcile; that’s why we are given “the ministry of reconciliation”; our believing that he wants to means that our returning to him means we will be reconciled/ saved, because he has told us he wants to be reconciled. He made the first move; he makes the effectual choice; he says return to me and I will receive you. His promise is the only thing that affects anything. His promise is him saying “come home! I want to reconcile!” And as the old adage goes, it takes two to tango! Thus, we must want to be reconciled as well, thus our message, “Be reconciled to God”!

Your thesis of "If a man cheats on his wife, does the repentant man mean the wife has to let me come home? No!" is flawed on several points.

First, God forgives the repentant person. You wrote that God breaks God's promise!

Second, unlike your wife example, Holy Father actually sent His Beloved Son to atone for the sins of all His chosen people (John 1:29), so the One True God lovingly reconciled us Christians to Himself. Here is the Gospel of Jesus.

Third, you wrote "our believing that he wants to means that our returning to him means we will be reconciled/ saved, because he has told us he wants to be reconciled" and your believing there is a work of you instead of the work of God according to Free-willian Philosophy, so your foundation is your self-willed believing (2 Peter 2:9-10). For us Christians, believing is the work of God because the Word of God declares "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29).

Doug

Now, TibiasDad, back to the free-willian philosophy of "apart from Christ, I chose Christ" and your faulty accusation that it is a "strawman opponent".

You failed to explain your "strawman opponent", so I ask, will you try again? Or more importantly, will you believe the Word of God?

Here is the straightforward proposition for you. Six words in the following are in the color blue, and those six words I attribute to free-willian's hearts based on your Free-willian Philosophy. You claim that I ignorantly created a "strawman opponent", so I am now asking, will you please explain to me how you arrive at your "strawman opponent" conclusion about those six words which were presented to you in post #3,734 and are here to avoid any miscommunication?

“he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

A part of Free-willian Philosophy holds that a person along with the person's will are separated from God, and in that state of separation, that person can choose God; therefore, you free-willians believe that "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Christ reveals that the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), but your spirit declares that you control Christ with your purported choosing to believe in Christ which forces Christ to save you.

We Christians are in Christ exclusively because of the loving work of Christ, but you deny this fact (see 2 Peter 2:1 and John 3:3 and John 3:21 and John 15:5 and John 15:16, John 15:19, and John 6:29).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD THE FATHER, THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND THE SON OF GOD, ALL THE ONE TRUE GOD!!!

 

[civic]

It is carefully explained in the below, TibiasDad and @DavidTree.



Philippians 2:13 is about born of God persons. A person must first be born of God in order to be able to righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God because the Word of God says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

You still fail to righteously address the following.



I thank God for creating me anew and filling me with His mercy and grace. See post #4,015.

TibiasDad, notice that you wrote "potentially" in your more expensive thoughts of "Working toward us includes working in us as well, the changing of our understanding and perspective and thus, potentially, our desires and will. God must always move toward us first", below.

Therefore, you believe "it is God who is potentially at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure", yet your thoughts are out of accord with Apostolic testimony which is "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) which is active, absolute, and constant.

There is no free-will for man in the Gospel of Christ, so the enemies of Christ add free-will to their own evil message.

You are promoting the unbiblical concept of secondary cause which is a Free-willian Philosophy postulate, and your tightly coupled primary cause and secondary cause are addressed below and in post #4,015.



TibiasDad, God caused me to address your "God must always move toward us first" concept below, in the section where your "My whole post was in answer to why it is" post quotation can be found.

You have responded above, yet you responded with your heart's thoughts only, that is, the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9). Your thoughts neglected even a single quotation of the Word of God.



I did not write that you said "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", but God caused me to write that you free-willians believe "apart from Christ, I chose Christ".

You failed to explain your "strawman argument", again, so I ask, will you explain why you claim "apart from Christ, I chose Christ" is a "strawman argument"?

Nonetheless, you fail to show repentance nor apology for the following.



You committed your entire opening paragraph to attacking me instead of addressing the issue of your Free-willian Philosophy founded upon "apart from Christ, I chose Christ",

Read that which you posted to attack me, again, TibiasDad, "your choice of repeating certain concepts like calling us fraudulent". That is a verbatim quote of the words that came out of your heart.

A fraudster is a person who commits a fraudulent act. A fraunster is a real person, not a fraudulent person.

I never called any of you a fraudulent person. Your new statement "you are calling the author of the 'fraudulent' argument fraudulent as well" is in itself your, TibiasDad, fraudulently fabricated statement which you attributed to me in order for you to proceed to argue against your fraudulently fabricated statement instead of that which God caused me to write.

You and your free-willian colleagues have fraudulently fabricated false statements that you attributed to me, and you repeat your false witness against me in your attack post that you just composed.



Your writing there negates the Word of God, as shall be visible in a moment.

You describe "God acting toward us first" instead of "God working in us first". The left column contains your traditions of men (Matthew 15:9), and the right column contains the Righteous Word of God!

The traditions of men		The Word of God
This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (The Book of Free-willians 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)
the one choosing to practice the Truth comes to the Light so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in him (The Book of Free-willians 3:21)		the one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21)
Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God[ (The Book of Free-willians 3:3)		Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3)
I praise You, man, that you have revealed these things to yourselves for you are the wise and intelligent ones who cause yourselves to repent and be born of God (self-willed man's sayings 11:25)		I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25)
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even according to your fleshly love, that you also love one another (The Book of Free-willians 13:34)		A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34)
You chose Me, but I choose everybody everywhere in all time (The Book of Free-willians 15:16)		you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)
I chose Jesus, so now Jesus must obey me to make me out of the world (self-willed man's sayings 15:19)		I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)

Your thesis of "If a man cheats on his wife, does the repentant man mean the wife has to let me come home? No!" is flawed on several points.

First, God forgives the repentant person. You wrote that God breaks God's promise!

Second, unlike your wife example, Holy Father actually sent His Beloved Son to atone for the sins of all His chosen people (John 1:29), so the One True God lovingly reconciled us Christians to Himself. Here is the Gospel of Jesus.

Third, you wrote "our believing that he wants to means that our returning to him means we will be reconciled/ saved, because he has told us he wants to be reconciled" and your believing there is a work of you instead of the work of God according to Free-willian Philosophy, so your foundation is your self-willed believing (2 Peter 2:9-10). For us Christians, believing is the work of God because the Word of God declares "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29).



Now, TibiasDad, back to the free-willian philosophy of "apart from Christ, I chose Christ" and your faulty accusation that it is a "strawman opponent".

You failed to explain your "strawman opponent", so I ask, will you try again? Or more importantly, will you believe the Word of God?

Here is the straightforward proposition for you. Six words in the following are in the color blue, and those six words I attribute to free-willian's hearts based on your Free-willian Philosophy. You claim that I ignorantly created a "strawman opponent", so I am now asking, will you please explain to me how you arrive at your "strawman opponent" conclusion about those six words which were presented to you in post #3,734 and are here to avoid any miscommunication?

“he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

A part of Free-willian Philosophy holds that a person along with the person's will are separated from God, and in that state of separation, that person can choose God; therefore, you free-willians believe that "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Christ reveals that the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), but your spirit declares that you control Christ with your purported choosing to believe in Christ which forces Christ to save you.

We Christians are in Christ exclusively because of the loving work of Christ, but you deny this fact (see 2 Peter 2:1 and John 3:3 and John 3:21 and John 15:5 and John 15:16, John 15:19, and John 6:29).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD THE FATHER, THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND THE SON OF GOD, ALL THE ONE TRUE GOD!!!

good scriptures and the rest of your ideas are gookgobbly.

 

[TomL]

There is no free-will for man in the Gospel of Christ, so the enemies of Christ add free-will to their own evil message.

So how it God had to harden some to prevent belief?

John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”


How is it these unregenerate men believed temporarily

Luke 8:13 (ESV) — 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

 

[DavidTree]

Men are called by the gospel, that is the revelation which I noted

Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

AGREE

Where did the Gospel come from?
From man or from God?

 

[civic]

AGREE

Where did the Gospel come from?
From man or from God?

Paul via Jesus

 

[DavidTree]

Paul via Jesus

Well of course!

Correct order is JESUS to Paul, Annanias to Paul, Holy Spirit to Paul, Paul to the Scriptures, Paul to preaching the Gospel, Paul to Jews and then to the Gentiles, Paul to Christ/Heaven

Question is: Where did the Gospel ITSELF come from? Man or Other?

 

[DavidTree]

Paul via Jesus

post edited