An Article on free will

[Kermos]

Maybe the god of this world but not the God from above

Sorry you were were already shown to be busted

Christ died for all

Judas and Nancy as well


1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I teach the scripture you deny

John 3:14–18 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

God loved the world and gave Christ to the world; that those in world who believe will be saved and those who die in unbelief will not








Sorry God did not tell you that. That was your bible denying theology that had you deny scripture

There is no Nancy in Luke 22

Luke 22:19–20 (ESV) — 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.


Fact the bread which represents Christ body was given to Judas and he ate it

Fact the cup which represents Christ's shed blood was given to him as well

Another fact the bread (Christ body) was given to the opposers of Christ

John 6:32–59 (ESV) — 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” 41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.



Sorry no, you bear false witness, I did not say Christ atoned for Judas. That is your assumption because you imagine that if Christ is given for someone they must be saved

that is an assumption

Christ being given on behalf of one saves only those who believe as the scripture shows and even the Calvinist below states

It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men therefore no men are lost is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul. Christ, conceivably, might have died precisely as he did and his death have been just as valuable for expiatory purposes as it is, but if his death had not been followed with the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of faith on the part of individual men, he would have died in vain.[1]

---

[1] William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.



Sorry that would be another falsehood as I went through all your tortured and twisted claims one by one

in many posts starting at post 3022 extending to 3049

Why do you post falsehoods?

Since you cannot righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God unless you are born of God (John 3:3), then you are left with your own interpretation's god.

You wrote "Christ died for all Judas and Nancy as well", and the following demonstrates your error with respect to Bible passages that you adulterate to acheive the god of this world's failure atonement.

You have no defense because Christ's failure atonement is the conclusion of your faith as shown in the following about Judas Iscariot and people like Nancy.

Of your many posts, God caused me to address your post in which your heart corrupted the Holy Scripture recorded in Titus 2:11 converting it into TomL 2:11, so you are shown to be a false prophet (1 John 4:1).

Now back to your fabricated free-willian philosophy regarding Christ's atonement.

Give it up the pronouns refer to the 12

Luke 22:13–20 (KJV 1900) — 14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. 15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. 17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. 19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Why are you so desparate to ignore the word of God

Your so called journey is into deception

BTW there was no sop in Luke and Judas does not leave after the bread and John has no this is my body, this is my blood

What is this need you have to deny the word of God

You wanted Judas Iscariot to eat during the supper, and God caused me to tell you the passage that said that he ate during the supper after which he left the supper.

God caused me to tell you that Judas was excluded from salvation in both the Book of John and the Book of Luke regarding the supper.

According to you, Christ atoned for Judas Iscariot thus Judas partook in Christ's Blood of the New Covenant covering the sins of Judas, but Lord Jesus called Judas "the son of destruction" as recorded by the Apostle John in "not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction" (John 17:12); therefore, your free-willian philosophy postulates that Christ's Blood of the New Covenant failed to bring Judas to salvation even though you and civic say that Judas is a partaker of the New Covenant in Christ's Blood, and your free-willian philosophy failure atonement for Judas is equally applicable to people like Nancy mentioned below.

You are simply spamming your views ignoring the harmony of scripture, context lexical data, and even the views of your own peers

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


And yet fail to address the point

We free willians believe in scripture

Too bad you do not

John 12:47 (NASB 2020) — 47 If anyone hears My teachings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

The world obviously includes any who do not believe - do not keep his word

John 3:16–17 (NASB 2020) — 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.


God's love was for the world which he came to save (subjunctively) depending on the willingness to believe

John 3:14–18 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.











So do you affirm God takes away the sins of the world?

Lets see

The world

John 7:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

John 15:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

John 15:19 (KJV 1900) — 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 17:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

John 17:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

1 John 3:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 3:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

The two of you FAILED again to address the implications of people like Nancy upon your adulterations to Bible passages like John 1:29, Hebrews 2:9, Titus 2:11, Titus 3:4, John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, and 2 Corinthians 5:14 which you presented as your free-willian philosophy shifting sand (Matthew 7:21-27).

TomL, you brought up some of the same passages as civic which are already under discussion here, and the passages can be reviewed below.

People believing in Christ's failure atonement fail to address the implications of people like Nancy on their concept of who God is!

The Atonement has no limits, you have a false gospel and make Jesus and the Apostles liars.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Loraine Boettner the world renown Calvinist theologian has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,

"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."

1)I have already proven irresistible grace is not true with Acts 7:51

2)I have proven the atonement is not limited- John 1:20, 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Pet 3:9 and 1 John 2:2

3)I have proven that election is not unconditional- whosoever will may come, that means all, everyone from numerous passages . John 1:12 John 3:16

Conclusion : tulip is a false gospel

hope this helps !!!

God causes me to visit each and every verse that you quoted, civic.

As a reminder for you, for the definition of the word "world", you hold a death grip on "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ".

According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, you free-willians believe in failure atonement.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of John
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world! (civic 1:29)		The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of Hebrews
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he ineffectively suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might ineffectually taste death for everyone like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God. (civic and TomL 2:9)		But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of Titus
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment (civic 2:11)		For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of Titus
But when the kindness and the love of mankind which includes God-displeasing sin-immersed self-willed under the wrath of God people like Nancy of God our Savior appeared (civic 3:4)		But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared (Titus 3:4)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Lord Jesus says "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:19-20) in the immediately same conversation as John 3:16!

Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The word of civic		The Word of God
For God so loved the world like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever loving the darkness hating the Light by self-will choosing to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (civic 3:16 and TomL 3:16)		For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

And so go your revilings against the precious Holy Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) as you illegally redefine believe as a work of man instead of the work of God again and again and again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The First Book of Free-willians		The First Book of Timothy
Who will have all men to be saved, but God's will fails miserably with saving people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 civic 2:4 and 1 TomL 2:4)		Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Second Book of Free-willians		The Second Book of Peter
The Lord breaks his promise because he is patient with you people like Nancy of the world who will never be a part of the Body of Christ, not wishing that any should perish but people like Nancy perish without ever coming to repentance. (2 civicTomL 3:9)		The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Notice the phrase "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author, the First Book of John inspired by the glorious Holy Spirit.

You brought up 1 John 2:2 which shall be examined in a moment, and the other location is "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one, so current Christians are excluded from "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The First Book of Free-willians		The First Book of John
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing, Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for ones such as people like Nancy. (1 TomLcivic 2:2)		He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

So "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 includes exclusively the people that will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent before those people die, so "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 has a different meaning than "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, but your heart destroys context for "the whole world", and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Crucially, you quoted where the Apostle declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Second Book of Free-willians		The Second Book to the Corinthians
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died and now live in Christ, including people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing (2 civic 5:14)		For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died (2 Corinthians 5:14)

And you, civic, quoted 2 Corinthians 5:14 without your recognition of "and He died for all, so that those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose on their behalf" (2 Corinthians 5:15) thus your heart's destroy context for 2 Corinthians 5:14, and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

You, civic, quoted your Calvinist god Loraine Boettner, and his quote reinforces that your Free-willian Philosophy abounds in confusion.

We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Your blanket statements after you quote your god Boettner errantly coupled with your use of scripture are traditions of men.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE ONE WHO REDEEMS HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE!!!

 

[TomL]

Since you cannot righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God unless you are born of God (John 3:3), then you are left with your own interpretation's god.

You wrote "Christ died for all Judas and Nancy as well", and the following demonstrates your error with respect to Bible passages that you adulterate to acheive the god of this world's failure atonement.

You have no defense because Christ's failure atonement is the conclusion of your faith as shown in the following about Judas Iscariot and people like Nancy.

Of your many posts, God caused me to address your post in which your heart corrupted the Holy Scripture recorded in Titus 2:11 converting it into TomL 2:11, so you are shown to be a false prophet (1 John 4:1).

Now back to your fabricated free-willian philosophy regarding Christ's atonement.



You wanted Judas Iscariot to eat during the supper, and God caused me to tell you the passage that said that he ate during the supper after which he left the supper.

God caused me to tell you that Judas was excluded from salvation in both the Book of John and the Book of Luke regarding the supper.

According to you, Christ atoned for Judas Iscariot thus Judas partook in Christ's Blood of the New Covenant covering the sins of Judas, but Lord Jesus called Judas "the son of destruction" as recorded by the Apostle John in "not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction" (John 17:12); therefore, your free-willian philosophy postulates that Christ's Blood of the New Covenant failed to bring Judas to salvation even though you and civic say that Judas is a partaker of the New Covenant in Christ's Blood, and your free-willian philosophy failure atonement for Judas is equally applicable to people like Nancy mentioned below.



The two of you FAILED again to address the implications of people like Nancy upon your adulterations to Bible passages like John 1:29, Hebrews 2:9, Titus 2:11, Titus 3:4, John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, and 2 Corinthians 5:14 which you presented as your free-willian philosophy shifting sand (Matthew 7:21-27).

TomL, you brought up some of the same passages as civic which are already under discussion here, and the passages can be reviewed below.

People believing in Christ's failure atonement fail to address the implications of people like Nancy on their concept of who God is!



God causes me to visit each and every verse that you quoted, civic.

As a reminder for you, for the definition of the word "world", you hold a death grip on "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ".

According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, you free-willians believe in failure atonement.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of John
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world! (civic 1:29)		The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of Hebrews
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he ineffectively suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might ineffectually taste death for everyone like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God. (civic and TomL 2:9)		But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of Titus
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment (civic 2:11)		For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of Titus
But when the kindness and the love of mankind which includes God-displeasing sin-immersed self-willed under the wrath of God people like Nancy of God our Savior appeared (civic 3:4)		But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared (Titus 3:4)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Lord Jesus says "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:19-20) in the immediately same conversation as John 3:16!

Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The word of civic		The Word of God
For God so loved the world like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever loving the darkness hating the Light by self-will choosing to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (civic 3:16 and TomL 3:16)		For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

And so go your revilings against the precious Holy Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) as you illegally redefine believe as a work of man instead of the work of God again and again and again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The First Book of Free-willians		The First Book of Timothy
Who will have all men to be saved, but God's will fails miserably with saving people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 civic 2:4 and 1 TomL 2:4)		Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Second Book of Free-willians		The Second Book of Peter
The Lord breaks his promise because he is patient with you people like Nancy of the world who will never be a part of the Body of Christ, not wishing that any should perish but people like Nancy perish without ever coming to repentance. (2 civicTomL 3:9)		The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Notice the phrase "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author, the First Book of John inspired by the glorious Holy Spirit.

You brought up 1 John 2:2 which shall be examined in a moment, and the other location is "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one, so current Christians are excluded from "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The First Book of Free-willians		The First Book of John
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing, Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for ones such as people like Nancy. (1 TomLcivic 2:2)		He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

So "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 includes exclusively the people that will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent before those people die, so "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 has a different meaning than "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, but your heart destroys context for "the whole world", and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Crucially, you quoted where the Apostle declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ.

Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Second Book of Free-willians		The Second Book to the Corinthians
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died and now live in Christ, including people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing (2 civic 5:14)		For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died (2 Corinthians 5:14)

And you, civic, quoted 2 Corinthians 5:14 without your recognition of "and He died for all, so that those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose on their behalf" (2 Corinthians 5:15) thus your heart's destroy context for 2 Corinthians 5:14, and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

You, civic, quoted your Calvinist god Loraine Boettner, and his quote reinforces that your Free-willian Philosophy abounds in confusion.

We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Your blanket statements after you quote your god Boettner errantly coupled with your use of scripture are traditions of men.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE ONE WHO REDEEMS HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE!!!

Let me know when you are ready to do more than just deny scripture and repeat that which has already been addressed in posts between 3022 and 3049 and interpret words contrary to their use throughout scripture depending on the needs of your theologyf

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I teach the scripture you deny

John 3:14–18 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

God loved the world and gave Christ to the world; that those in world who believe will be saved and those who die in unbelief will not








Sorry God did not tell you that. That was your bible denying theology that had you deny scripture

There is no Nancy in Luke 22

Luke 22:19–20 (ESV) — 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.


Fact the bread which represents Christ body was given to Judas and he ate it

Fact the cup which represents Christ's shed blood was given to him as well

Another fact the bread (Christ body) was given to the opposers of Christ

John 6:32–59 (ESV) — 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” 41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.



Sorry no, you bear false witness, I did not say Christ atoned for Judas. That is your assumption because you imagine that if Christ is given for someone they must be saved

that is an assumption

Christ being given on behalf of one saves only those who believe as the scripture shows and even the Calvinist below states

It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men therefore no men are lost is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul. Christ, conceivably, might have died precisely as he did and his death have been just as valuable for expiatory purposes as it is, but if his death had not been followed with the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of faith on the part of individual men, he would have died in vain.[1]

---

[1] William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.



Sorry that would be another falsehood as I went through all your tortured and twisted claims one by one

in many posts starting at post 3022 extending to 3049

Why do you post falsehoods?

 

[Studyman]

Thank you for acknowledging people like Nancy!

I am acknowledging what is actually written in Scriptures. The Nancy's of this world have the same choices as everyone else, yes? God is no respecter of persons in my understanding. I posted scriptures for your review and I was hoping you might acknowledge them.

Please understand, this is about people like Nancy dying in a state of unbelief, and the relationship between Christ's atonement with those people like Nancy.

Shouldn't a person believe in the Words of the Jesus "of the Bible"?

Luke 13: 26 Then shall ye (Nancy's who were shown God's Salvation, but didn't believe in it) begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Is this not the Jesus "of the Bible" defining His Relationship with the "Nancy's of unbelief"?

@civic presented Titus 2:11 to me as proof that all men are covered by Christ's atonement, that is, Christ's atonement for all men.

I like Civic, but I wouldn't take his spiritual advice over what God actually teaches. I believe all men have access to Christ's atonement, but this same Christ told me "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Would this not also include the unbelieving Nancy and Tom? And what if Nancy said to God, I see your salvation, but "I don't believe you, go pound sand".

How is this a failure of God? Didn't God also tell Nancy:

Deut 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

So didn't Gods Salvation appear to her as well? Does God want Nancy to die?

Ez. 18: 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

But if Nancy chooses Death, after seeing both Death and Life that God placed before her, shall God not keep His Promises? And if HE does, how is this a failure of God?

The first state of man is fleshly opposition to God (John 6:63), so everyone starts out under the wrath of God, and man is entirely dependent on God's rescue even God rescuing one from oneself's evil nature (John 15:16-19).

John 15: 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

How can a person who doesn't believe Jesus, "do whatsoever HE commands them".

Shall we not also believe these Words of Jesus as well?

The distinguishing factor of including people like Nancy in the concept of "salvation to all men" results in Christ's atonement for salvation for people like Nancy being a failure as demonstrated:

But my friend, you have not demonstrated a failure of God. Rather, you are promoting a doctrine in which God's actual Words are not considered. And Paul's are not either.

Titus 2: 11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation "hath appeared" to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

So what of those people who "see God's Salvation", but don't believe in the "Way of the Lord" and choose instead to live in godliness and worldly lusts in this present world? What does Paul say about them?

Rom. 2: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Shall a man not also believe Paul's words here?

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of Titus
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are in hell suffering eternally under the wrath of God (civic 2:11)		For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11)

There is a good deal more context to the above, and for your convenience, it is at post #2,963.

Thank you for the convenient reference, I really appreciate it. I see your conclusion.

• The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.

But please answer a question for me. Didn't the same Salvation of God appear to the Pharisees, that appeared to Tom and Nancy? It would be the same Salvation, from the Grace of the same God, which appeared to all men, yes?

So here is what the Jesus of the Bible said to the mainstream preachers of His Time, the Pharisees.

Luke 13: 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

So then in your religion, is it your conclusion that Jesus is a "free willian" and promoting a God and Father who saved Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and "ALL" of the Prophets, but couldn't save the Pharisees?

Isn't it true that the Pharisees, and Tom and Nancy all could have "Chosen Life" after God set it before them, like HE did Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Like He did Caleb, David and Zacharias?

By the way, your closing paragraph is sensible and well written.

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE YOU, THE SOURCE OF JOY UNSPEAKABLE!!!

Thanks for the encouraging words. Jesus warned specifically of deceivers who call Him Lord, Lord, who "Come in His Name", and inspired Paul to warn of deceivers who "Transform themselves" into apostles of Christ.

My hope is that you might consider all that is written, and study apart of this world's many religious sects and businesses as much as possible. In my understanding of Scriptures, God doesn't force His Way on people. He calls them, "turn to Me" HE says, and I will save you.

He doesn't say, "turn to Wesley" or "turn to Calvin" or "turn to White" or the Pope of Russell, or anyone else. It just seems to me that this is an important distinction given all His Warnings about men "who profess to know god, but by their works, they deny Him".

Thanks so much for the manner in which you presented your philosophy. I question it, not because of what other posters on this forum post, but because of the Scriptures.

Thanks again for the discussion.

 

[Kermos]

Fatalism just like your fathers Augustine and Calvin who made up your false doctrines.

You systematically avoided responding to the 6 points below. Please address each of the 6 points.

You have no defense because Christ's failure atonement is the conclusion of your faith as shown in the following about people like Alice.

The Golden Rule of Interpretation

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),founder of The Biblical Research Society

These Greek Lexicons affirm world means all, everyone, the whole world without exception.

Thayers

Cosmos: the inhabitants of the

5. world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5; γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21; ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰς τόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19, cf. 12:46; of the Messiah, John 6:14; John 11:27; of Jesus as the Messiah, John 9:39; John 16:28; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 1:15; also ἐισέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, Hebrews 10:5; of false teachers, 2 John 1:7(yet here L T Tr WH ἐξέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον; (so all texts in 1 John 4:1)); to invade, of evils coming into existence among men and beginning to exert their power: of sin and death, Romans 5:12 (of death, Wis. 2:24; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 3, 4 [ET]; of idolatry, Wis. 14:14). ἀποστέλλειν τινα εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 3:17; John 10:36; John 17:18; 1 John 4:9; φῶς τοῦ κόσμου, Matthew 5:14; John 8:12; John 9:5; σωτήρ τοῦ κόσμου, John 4:42; 1 John 4:14 (σωτηρία τοῦ κόσμου Wis. 6:26 (25); ἐλπίς τοῦ κόσμου, Wis. 14:6; πρωτόπλαστος πατήρ τοῦ κόσμου, of Adam, Wis. 10:1); στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου (see στοιχεῖον, 3 and 4); ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, among men, John 16:33; John 17:13; Ephesians 2:12; ἐν κόσμῳ (see Winer's Grammar, 123 (117)), 1 Timothy 3:16; εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου, to dwell among men, John 1:10; John 9:5; John 17:11, 12 R G; 1 John 4:3; εἶναι ἐν κόσμῳ, to be present, Romans 5:13; ἐξελθεῖν, ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to withdraw from human society and seek an abode outside of it, 1 Corinthians 5:10; ἀναστρέφεσθαι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, to behave oneself, 2 Corinthians 1:12; likewise εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου τούτῳ, 1 John 4:17.

6. "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; John 14:27 (); ; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 11:32; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 3:1, 13; 1 John 4:5; 1 John 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Hebrews 11:38; in Noah's time, ibid. 7; with οὗτος added, Ephesians 2:2 (on which see αἰών, 3); εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου and ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (see εἰμί, V. 3rd.), John 8:23; John 15:19; John 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5;λαλεῖν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, i. e. the devil, John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11; ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ he that is operative in the world (also of the devil), 1 John 4:4; τό πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

Continued :

1 John 2:2-He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:15-17-Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

1 John 4:3-6- but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the worldand therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

1 John 4:14- And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

1 John 5:19- We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Now its very clear from the Lexicon definition and in 1 John that the cosmos/world does not mean Gods elect (that is Calvinism) not what John means in his epistle. It clearly means everyone with no exceptions in this world, all of its inhabitants who make up the ungodly multitude. It is clearly all inclusive of everyone, all, the entire world that lies under the evil one in opposition to God from the context of 1 John.

Only someone with a closed mind trapped in their dogma/doctrine would argue otherwise resulting in eisegesis( reading their own ideas into the text) rather than exegesis ( letting the text dictate ones ideas ).

We see above that the whole world lies under the evil one and its that same identical whole world in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus made PROPITIATION for which is clear from the CONTEXT in 1 John.

So if the above truth from 1 John 2:2 which is clear as to the biblical meaning is all inclusive not exclusive ( Gods elect Jew/Gentiles) which comes from ones dogma/doctrine ( calvinism) and not Scripture and specifically in 1 John makes me a non calvinist then I'm here to official renounce my association with that group.

I'm all about the TRUTH never dogma, never the doctrines of men, never to win friends, but to only uphold the Truth in Gods word from its context. And the context here is in clear opposition to the teaching of Calvinsm in 1 John. World NEVER means Jew/Gentiles in the epistle but means all of the inhabitants of the world /cosmos who are ungodly , where the lust of the flesh, the pride of life and the lust of the eyes come from and the god of this world the evil one the spirit of antichrist , the spirit of falsehoods rules and reigns in all of those inhabitants in opposition to God.

Its that world whom Christ made propitiation. Doctrine/Dogma will never cloud my mind and I will seek, search truth until my dying day and never allow any systematic theology or bias to cloud my view of Scripture.

hope this helps !!!

Your "hope this helps" about your post truly helps in demonstrating your failure to understand context, again. By God's grace for God's glory, I sequentially segment this post to make it easier to understand context.

1. Interpretation of Holy Scripture
2. @TomL's constraint on John 3:16-17 by John 12:47
3. Christ's context for Christ's sayings recorded in John 12:47
4. Your context for Christ's sayings recorded in John 12:47
5. Christ's context of Christ's sayings recorded in John 3:16-18
6. Dogma and doctrine are importantly Truth (John 14:6)

1. Interpretation of Holy Scripture
   
   You inherit the writings of other people as your own writings when you exalt those people's writings as authority in your posts.
   
   Your heart's treasure securely holds to that which you call "The Golden Rule of Interpretation".
   
   
   When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.
   ​
   
   That's a very high authoritative bar that you set there, civic, your "Golden Rule of Interpretation".
   
   Your fleshly mind's "common sense" is all that you need, and you can make "plain sense of Scripture" exclusively using your "common sense" before you are born of God according to your cumulative writings.
   
   Now, the time has come to compare and contrast your dearly held belief with the Apostle Peter's words:
   

   The Fleshly Traditions of Men		Holy Scripture
   know this first of all, that every prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for it matters not whether prophecy was made by an act of human will, or men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God (2 civic 1:20-21)		know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God (2 Peter 1:20-21)

   
   Peter and I are God-centered.
   
   You and TomL are man-centered.
   
2. @TomL's constraint on John 3:16-17 by John 12:47
   
   TomL caused himself to repeatedly preach that John 12:47 dictates the meaning of the word world in John 3:16-17; on the other hand, God caused me to proclaim that the word world in John 3:18 is contextually contiguously relevant in the same dialog as John 3:16-17 as compared to the temporally distant dialog in John 12:47.
   
3. Christ's context for Christ's sayings recorded in John 12:47
   
   Here is the precious and pure Word of God "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 12:47).
   
   Lord and God Jesus Christ saves each one from the wrath of God who believes in the Son whom the Father has sent; in contrast, every one goes to hell who does not believe in Jesus (John 7:21-27).
   
   The Son says "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" (John 6:39).
   
   There are two contexts regarding saved persons and unsaved people within the 29 words issued by Jesus recorded in John 12:47:
   

   Clause		Context
   If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him		unsaved people / all unbelievers
   for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world		saved people (now and then) / current believers and future believers

   
   We Christians hear Christ clearly convey that the world contextually includes exclusively current believers and future believers, that is, saved people, as per His loving "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 12:47).
   
4. Your context for Christ's sayings recorded in John 12:47
   
   Of the word "world" in John 12:47, your heart assigned the definition of "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" in a fashion similar to TomL.
   
   

   Clause		Context
   If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him		unsaved people / all unbelievers
   for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world		the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ[

   
   The implications of your "the world" in John 12:47 are multiple.
   
   According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin unbelievers:
   • if Bob chooses to believe in Christ before Bob dies, then God must profit Bob with eternal life.
   • if Alice chooses to believe not in Christ, before Alice dies, then God must punish Alice with eternal damnation.
   • The conclusion: the causative factor for a person being rewarded with eternal life is whether a person “chooses to believe in Christ”.
   So man is the cause of eternal life because man goes to hell without man choosing to believe in Christ.
   
   On to another dark consequence of your Free-willian Philosophy "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ[" is that your heart's treasure renders Christ's death an abject failure for every unbeliever who dies as an unbeliever because Christ failed to save that saved unbeliever (see John 12:47 and the Alice example above).
   
   Your belief in failure atonement results in Christ being a false prophet because Jesus fails to save all that he died to save.
   
   The context around John 12:47 is relevant.
   
   Your heart set "the world" equal to "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ[", so your heart equivocates "the world" into a thing of "all unbelievers who call in their own initiative speaking their self-willed change of heart from unbeliever to believer in Me".
   
   Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
   

   The word of civic		The Word of God
   If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save any unbeliever who calls in his own initiative speaking his self-willed change of heart from unbeliever to believer in Me. (civic 12:47)		If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. (John 12:47-49)

   And so go your adulterations of precious and Holy Word of God again and again and again.
   
   See your heart has your "the world" of unbelievers being superior to Jesus because your unbelievers speak on their own initiative in contrast to Jesus who says "I did not speak on My own initiative" (John 12:49).
   
   A deeper sinister darkness lurks in your context for John 12:47. Both Bob and Alice start off as part of the world, so even believer Bob is unsaved because unbeliever Alice is unsaved which causes the entirety of the world to be unsaved from the wrath of God. Do not be deceived, Lord Jesus said "to save the world" in John 12:47 - "the world" is an aggregate phrase indicating the entire world.
   
   God caused me to address TomL's specific Free-willian Philosophical point, and you injected yourself as TomL's champion regarding TomL's Free-willian Philosophy, so you are one who does not receive Christ's sayings (John 12:48 - notice John 12:47 which is directly adjacent to John 12:48).
   
5. Christ's context of Christ's sayings recorded in John 3:16-18
   
   Let's look at Jesus' term the world in a directly adjacent critical text to John 3:16-17:
   
   
   16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
   (John 3:17-18)
   ​
   
   Clearly, unbelievers of the world are judged as their default state of being as per Christ recorded in John 3:18 (which is directly adjacent to John 3:16-17 instead of way over to John 12:47 that fails as a proof text for your Free-willian Philosophy as demonstrated above).
   
   The dead in sin must be born of God in order to righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God (John 3:3); furthermore, Lord Jesus Christ establishes the ordained order of salvation in John chapter 3 with John 3:3 preceding John 3:16 in the same dialog.
   
   Your Free-willian Philosophy holds that the dead in sin cause themselves to be born of God (have life in Christ), so your Free-willian Philosophy is false and in a state of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) because the dead in sin do not cause themselves to be born of God (have life in Christ).
   
   The word "world" in John 3:16 is the population of persons who currently are or in the future will be imparted the work of God unto salvation that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).
   
6. Dogma is important Truth (John 14:6)
   
   Your heart discounts the concept of dogma with your words "I'm all about the TRUTH never dogma".
   
   Now while they were passing through the cities, they were delivering the dogma which had been decided upon by the apostles and elders who were in Jerusalem, for them to observe (Acts 16:4).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE FAITH!!!

 

[TomL]

You and TomL are man-centered.

No we are biblical and you are not

1. @TomL's constraint on John 3:16-17 by John 12:47
   
   TomL caused himself to repeatedly preach that John 12:47 dictates the meaning of the word world in John 3:16-17; on the other hand, God caused me to proclaim that the word world in John 3:18 is contextually contiguously relevant in the same dialog as John 3:16-17 as compared to the temporally distant dialog in John 12:47.
2. Christ's context for Christ's sayings recorded in John 12:47
   
   Here is the precious and pure Word of God "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 12:47).

So answer the question you repeatedly fail to address

According to verse 47 why does Christ not judge the unbeliever

for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world"

The conjunction "for" tells us why

1. 
   
   Lord and God Jesus Christ saves each one from the wrath of God who believes in the Son whom the Father has sent; in contrast, every one goes to hell who does not believe in Jesus (John 7:21-27).

Deal with the issue

According to verse 47 why does Christ not judge the unbeliever at this time

1. 
   
   The Son says "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" (John 6:39).

Does not address the issue raised

Why can you not address it

According to verse 47 why does Christ not judge any who do not believe at his first coming

1. 
   
   There are two contexts regarding saved persons and unsaved people within the 29 words issued by Jesus recorded in John 12:47:
   

   Clause		Context
   If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him		unsaved people / all unbelievers
   for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world		saved people (now and then) / current believers and future believers

   
   We Christians hear Christ clearly convey that the world contextually includes exclusively current believers and future believers, that is, saved people, as per His loving "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 12:47).

Sorry Christians who wrote lexicons and commentary do not agree with you. You have just ignored them

For example there is not a lexicon in existence where world is defined as believers alone

example

b.
b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

You will note the relevant verses are spoken of here

You ignore that

1. Your context for Christ's sayings recorded in John 12:47Of the word "world" in John 12:47, your heart assigned the definition of "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" in a fashion similar to TomL.

What i stated is world includes unbelievers just as

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

1. Clause		Context
   If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him		unsaved people / all unbelievers
   for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world		the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ[

UM

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

What part of all mankind are you unable to comprehend

1. The implications of your "the world" in John 12:47 are multiple.According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin unbelievers:
   • if Bob chooses to believe in Christ before Bob dies, then God must profit Bob with eternal life.
   • if Alice chooses to believe not in Christ, before Alice dies, then God must punish Alice with eternal damnation.

Not must but chooses to

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

the whole story

John 3:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That is biblical truth you reject in favor of your man made gnostic inspired philosophy

1. • The conclusion: the causative factor for a person being rewarded with eternal life is whether a person “chooses to believe in Christ”.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

scripture agrees

with the understanding

The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith? John includes the three in one sentence when he says, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16).

1. And so go your adulterations of precious and Holy Word of God again and again and again.See your heart has your "the world" of unbelievers being superior to Jesus because your unbelievers speak on their own initiative in contrast to Jesus who says "I did not speak on My own initiative" (John 12:49).

Total non sequitur

Speaking on your own apart from the word of God is not superior to speaking according to the word of God

Your claim is rather irrational as are most of your arguments

1. A deeper sinister darkness lurks in your context for John 12:47. Both Bob and Alice start off as part of the world, so even believer Bob is unsaved because unbeliever Alice is unsaved

Irrational

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

1. which causes the entirety of the world to be unsaved from the wrath of God. Do not be deceived, Lord Jesus said "to save the world" in John 12:47 - "the world" is an aggregate phrase indicating the entire world.God caused me to address TomL's specific Free-willian Philosophical point, and you injected yourself as TomL's champion regarding TomL's Free-willian Philosophy, so you are one who does not receive Christ's sayings (John 12:48 - notice John 12:47 which is directly adjacent to John 12:48).

You Continue irrationally

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

and it you who reject Christ words

John 3:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life

and replaces it with whoever God unconditionally chooses shall be saved

It's another gospel from a man who chooses not to believe the true gospel and attempts to substitute it with a false gospel

1. Christ's context of Christ's sayings recorded in John 3:16-18
   
   Let's look at Jesus' term the world in a directly adjacent critical text to John 3:16-17:
   
   
   16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
   (John 3:17-18)​
   
   Clearly, unbelievers of the world are judged as their default state of being as per Christ recorded in John 3:18 (which is directly adjacent to John 3:16-17 instead of way over to John 12:47 that fails as a proof text for your Free-willian Philosophy as demonstrated above).

They are under condemnation but they are not yet condemned. They have the opportunity to repent and be saved which is why christ came

John 3:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

You deny the very reason for Christ coming - to save sinners

1 Timothy 1:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Do you know anyone aside from Christ who was not a sinner?

1. 
   
   The dead in sin must be born of God in order to righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God (John 3:3); furthermore, Lord Jesus Christ establishes the ordained order of salvation in John chapter 3 with John 3:3 preceding John 3:16 in the same dialog.

There you go once again Ignoring context , the harmony of scripture and lexicon

John 3:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

is explained by

John 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

see in john 3 means to experience to enter into

compare how scripture employs the word

Luke 2:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Hebrews 11:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

as the lexicons note

5. see someth.=experience someth. (Ps 26:13); good days 1 Pt 3:10 (Ps 33:13; τ. βασιλείαν J 3:3. θάνατον see death=die Lk 2:26; Hb 11:5 (cf. Ps 88:49; Anth. Pal. 6, 230 ἰδεῖν Ἀίδην); grief Rv 18:7 (cf. 1 Macc 13:3 τὰς στενοχωρίας; Eccl 6:6 ἀγαθωσύνην). τὴν διαφθοράν experience decay=decay Ac 2:27, 31; 13:35-7 (all Ps 15:10); τ. ἡμέραν (Soph., Oed. R. 831; Aristoph., Pax 345; Polyb. 10, 4, 7; 32, 10, 9; Ael. Aristid. 32 p. 601 D.; Lam 2:16; Jos., Ant. 6, 305): τὴν ἡμέραν τ. ἐμήν J 8:56; μίαν τῶν ἡμερῶν Lk 17:22

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 221.

1. 
   
   Your Free-willian Philosophy holds that the dead in sin cause themselves to be born of God (have life in Christ), so your Free-willian Philosophy is false and in a state of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) because the dead in sin do not cause themselves to be born of God (have life in Christ).

John 1:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Seems my Free-willian Philosophy agrees with scripture; while you man made gnostic inspired philosophy does not

Maybe you should forget your man made gnostic inspired philosophy and believe the word of God

 

[Kermos]

I am acknowledging what is actually written in Scriptures. The Nancy's of this world have the same choices as everyone else, yes? God is no respecter of persons in my understanding. I posted scriptures for your review and I was hoping you might acknowledge them.

Studyman, you departed from the point at this discussion's current juncture with the Scripture that you cited, so I did not address the scripture you brought up about "choices" during a person's lifetime.

This portion of the discussion's focal point is Christ's atonement for people who have died; therefore, this discussion is currently beyond the choices of man while on Earth.

Please consider reviewing the portion of this thread that has led to this point about Christ's atonement, and here is an excellent point of departure about "choices" in post #2,901.

Shouldn't a person believe in the Words of the Jesus "of the Bible"?

By God's grace and for God's glory, God has caused me to proclaim the centrality of the Word of God in this very thread, even with the Lord Jesus Christ!s "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life" (John 6:63).

Luke 13: 26 Then shall ye (Nancy's who were shown God's Salvation, but didn't believe in it) begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Is this not the Jesus "of the Bible" defining His Relationship with the "Nancy's of unbelief"?

I'm sorry, but these passages are outside the current scope of the discussion because your quotations are addressing the people on Earth, not the departed.

I like Civic, but I wouldn't take his spiritual advice over what God actually teaches.

Your friend, @civic, presented John 1:29, Hebrews 2:9, Titus 2:11, Titus 3:4, John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, and 2 Corinthians 5:14 to me recently as his free-willian philosophy proof that Christ died for all men to be saved from the wrath of God, so please do not think for a moment that I tell you to "take his spiritual advice over what God actually teaches", but, rather, discern his heart's destruction of "what God actually teaches".

I believe all men have access to Christ's atonement, but this same Christ told me "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Would this not also include the unbelieving Nancy and Tom?

The Word of God concerning the concept of "repent" during a person's lifetime is quoted in post #2,901 (same link as above), but people like Nancy or Tom are no longer in scope with respect to the "repent" mentioned by Lord Jesus in Luke 13:3 because those people departed Earth.

And what if Nancy said to God, I see your salvation, but "I don't believe you, go pound sand".

The words you attributed to people like Nancy have already been established for her lifetime in the following because according to Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.

How is this a failure of God?

Let's look at the fact that God brings salvation to all men (Titus 2:11).

It is a "failure of God" when one includes people like Nancy in all men because such a concept results in "God brought salvation to Nancy". Nancy is dead and under the wrath of God, so the free-willian saying "God brought salvation to Nancy" declares that God is a failure.

Didn't God also tell Nancy:

Deut 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

So didn't Gods Salvation appear to her as well? Does God want Nancy to die?

Ez. 18: 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

But if Nancy chooses Death, after seeing both Death and Life that God placed before her, shall God not keep His Promises? And if HE does, how is this a failure of God?



John 15: 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

How can a person who doesn't believe Jesus, "do whatsoever HE commands them".

Shall we not also believe these Words of Jesus as well?



But my friend, you have not demonstrated a failure of God. Rather, you are promoting a doctrine in which God's actual Words are not considered. And Paul's are not either.

Titus 2: 11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation "hath appeared" to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

So what of those people who "see God's Salvation", but don't believe in the "Way of the Lord" and choose instead to live in godliness and worldly lusts in this present world? What does Paul say about them?

Rom. 2: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Shall a man not also believe Paul's words here?

Again, you presented passages that are outside the current scope of the discussion because your quotations are addressing the people on Earth, not the departed.

Do not forget, it was your buddy civic that brought up Titus 2:11 as a proof test that "God brought salvation to people like Nancy".

Thank you for the convenient reference, I really appreciate it. I see your conclusion.

• The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.

But please answer a question for me. Didn't the same Salvation of God appear to the Pharisees, that appeared to Tom and Nancy? It would be the same Salvation, from the Grace of the same God, which appeared to all men, yes?

Again, "God brought salvation to all men including people like Nancy" means that Christ’s atonement failed.

So here is what the Jesus of the Bible said to the mainstream preachers of His Time, the Pharisees.

Luke 13: 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

So then in your religion, is it your conclusion that Jesus is a "free willian" and promoting a God and Father who saved Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and "ALL" of the Prophets, but couldn't save the Pharisees?

Isn't it true that the Pharisees, and Tom and Nancy all could have "Chosen Life" after God set it before them, like HE did Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Like He did Caleb, David and Zacharias?

Lord and God Jesus Christ says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19), and here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

The Word of God expresses the exclusive Power of God regarding salvation with "and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’ In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out" (Luke 13:27-28).

Above, you asked "Does God want Nancy to die", so, now, God has me point at Luke 13:27 while asking you, are people like Nancy cast into the outer darkness according to the Power of God?

Also, I ask you, does God want the Apostle Peter to live?

Thanks for the encouraging words. Jesus warned specifically of deceivers who call Him Lord, Lord, who "Come in His Name", and inspired Paul to warn of deceivers who "Transform themselves" into apostles of Christ.

My hope is that you might consider all that is written, and study apart of this world's many religious sects and businesses as much as possible. In my understanding of Scriptures, God doesn't force His Way on people. He calls them, "turn to Me" HE says, and I will save you.

He doesn't say, "turn to Wesley" or "turn to Calvin" or "turn to White" or the Pope of Russell, or anyone else. It just seems to me that this is an important distinction given all His Warnings about men "who profess to know god, but by their works, they deny Him".

Thanks so much for the manner in which you presented your philosophy. I question it, not because of what other posters on this forum post, but because of the Scriptures.

Thanks again for the discussion.

You wrote

He doesn't say, "turn to Wesley" or "turn to Calvin" or "turn to White" or the Pope of Russell, or anyone else. It just seems to me that this is an important distinction given all His Warnings about men "who profess to know god, but by their works, they deny Him".
​

which is true!

Free-will is similar to self-will, so I encourage you and all people who daringly say "I chose to believe in Jesus" to meditate on the Apostle Peter's words:

the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties
(2 Peter 2:9-10).
​

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS MAJESTY, KING JESUS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!!

 

[civic]

I am acknowledging what is actually written in Scriptures. The Nancy's of this world have the same choices as everyone else, yes? God is no respecter of persons in my understanding. I posted scriptures for your review and I was hoping you might acknowledge them.


Shouldn't a person believe in the Words of the Jesus "of the Bible"?

Luke 13: 26 Then shall ye (Nancy's who were shown God's Salvation, but didn't believe in it) begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Is this not the Jesus "of the Bible" defining His Relationship with the "Nancy's of unbelief"?



I like Civic, but I wouldn't take his spiritual advice over what God actually teaches. I believe all men have access to Christ's atonement, but this same Christ told me "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Would this not also include the unbelieving Nancy and Tom? And what if Nancy said to God, I see your salvation, but "I don't believe you, go pound sand".

How is this a failure of God? Didn't God also tell Nancy:

Deut 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

So didn't Gods Salvation appear to her as well? Does God want Nancy to die?

Ez. 18: 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

But if Nancy chooses Death, after seeing both Death and Life that God placed before her, shall God not keep His Promises? And if HE does, how is this a failure of God?



John 15: 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

How can a person who doesn't believe Jesus, "do whatsoever HE commands them".

Shall we not also believe these Words of Jesus as well?



But my friend, you have not demonstrated a failure of God. Rather, you are promoting a doctrine in which God's actual Words are not considered. And Paul's are not either.

Titus 2: 11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation "hath appeared" to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

So what of those people who "see God's Salvation", but don't believe in the "Way of the Lord" and choose instead to live in godliness and worldly lusts in this present world? What does Paul say about them?

Rom. 2: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Shall a man not also believe Paul's words here?



Thank you for the convenient reference, I really appreciate it. I see your conclusion.

• The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.

But please answer a question for me. Didn't the same Salvation of God appear to the Pharisees, that appeared to Tom and Nancy? It would be the same Salvation, from the Grace of the same God, which appeared to all men, yes?

So here is what the Jesus of the Bible said to the mainstream preachers of His Time, the Pharisees.

Luke 13: 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

So then in your religion, is it your conclusion that Jesus is a "free willian" and promoting a God and Father who saved Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and "ALL" of the Prophets, but couldn't save the Pharisees?

Isn't it true that the Pharisees, and Tom and Nancy all could have "Chosen Life" after God set it before them, like HE did Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Like He did Caleb, David and Zacharias?




Thanks for the encouraging words. Jesus warned specifically of deceivers who call Him Lord, Lord, who "Come in His Name", and inspired Paul to warn of deceivers who "Transform themselves" into apostles of Christ.

My hope is that you might consider all that is written, and study apart of this world's many religious sects and businesses as much as possible. In my understanding of Scriptures, God doesn't force His Way on people. He calls them, "turn to Me" HE says, and I will save you.

He doesn't say, "turn to Wesley" or "turn to Calvin" or "turn to White" or the Pope of Russell, or anyone else. It just seems to me that this is an important distinction given all His Warnings about men "who profess to know god, but by their works, they deny Him".

Thanks so much for the manner in which you presented your philosophy. I question it, not because of what other posters on this forum post, but because of the Scriptures.

Thanks again for the discussion.

He is a determinist just like the Calvinist so only a predetermined chosen/elect group will be saved by no choice of their own and the sane is true for the rest of the condemned who have no choice to become saved. These people are fatalists and their god is impersonal and unloving.

 

[TomL]

Studyman, you departed from the point at this discussion's current juncture with the Scripture that you cited, so I did not address the scripture you brought up about "choices" during a person's lifetime.

This portion of the discussion's focal point is Christ's atonement for people who have died; therefore, this discussion is currently beyond the choices of man while on Earth.

Please consider reviewing the portion of this thread that has led to this point about Christ's atonement, and here is an excellent point of departure about "choices" in post #2,901.



By God's grace and for God's glory, God has caused me to proclaim the centrality of the Word of God in this very thread, even with the Lord Jesus Christ!s "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life" (John 6:63).



I'm sorry, but these passages are outside the current scope of the discussion because your quotations are addressing the people on Earth, not the departed.



Your friend, @civic, presented John 1:29, Hebrews 2:9, Titus 2:11, Titus 3:4, John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, and 2 Corinthians 5:14 to me recently as his free-willian philosophy proof that Christ died for all men to be saved from the wrath of God, so please do not think for a moment that I tell you to "take his spiritual advice over what God actually teaches", but, rather, discern his heart's destruction of "what God actually teaches".



The Word of God concerning the concept of "repent" during a person's lifetime is quoted in post #2,901 (same link as above), but people like Nancy or Tom are no longer in scope with respect to the "repent" mentioned by Lord Jesus in Luke 13:3 because those people departed Earth.



The words you attributed to people like Nancy have already been established for her lifetime in the following because according to Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.

What you fail to comprehend is it is not Christs responsibility to save anyone apart from that person believing of their own free will

John 3:14–19 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil.

John 5:39–40 (NASB 2020) — 39 “You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

What you fail to comprehend is it is not Christs responsibility to save anyone apart from that person believing of their own free will

False that is not scripture. In fact its Christs responsibility to save all whom the Father gave Him to save. Jn 17:2-3

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they[whom given] might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

That guarantees they all will believe in Him,\know Him. Its a covenant transaction Jer 31 33-34

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

[Studyman]

Studyman, you departed from the point at this discussion's current juncture with the Scripture that you cited, so I did not address the scripture you brought up about "choices" during a person's lifetime.

But you said in your example, that in Nancy's "lifetime" she made a choice. She "chooses to believe not in Christ." right until her dying thoughts".
She was still alive when she made the choice, according to the details of the post you directed me too. I'm not sure then, how the "choices" men make in their lifetime have no bearing on the example you gave me.

I'm just a dumb cowboy, perhaps I am misunderstanding your example.

This portion of the discussion's focal point is Christ's atonement for people who have died; therefore, this discussion is currently beyond the choices of man while on Earth.

Please consider reviewing the portion of this thread that has led to this point about Christ's atonement, and here is an excellent point of departure about "choices" in post #2,901.



By God's grace and for God's glory, God has caused me to proclaim the centrality of the Word of God in this very thread, even with the Lord Jesus Christ!s "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life" (John 6:63).



I'm sorry, but these passages are outside the current scope of the discussion because your quotations are addressing the people on Earth, not the departed.

I appreciate what you are trying to promote, really I do. But God does inspire it to be written;

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

In your example you said "if Nancy of the world "chooses to believe not in Christ."

Therefore, the Salvation of God must also have appeared to Nancy, as it did all men, Yes? And therefore, God also set before her, Life and Death, and advised her to choose life, as HE does all men, Yes? This aligns with Scriptures, Yes? In the example you gave, both Tom and Nancy were given the Choice God defined, Yes? And they made their choice, and you defined for me what that choice was. Now they are both dead and waiting for the final judgment in which God will resurrect them and as HE says, Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man "according as his work shall be".

Where am I departing from the topic?

Your friend, @civic, presented John 1:29, Hebrews 2:9, Titus 2:11, Titus 3:4, John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, and 2 Corinthians 5:14 to me recently as his free-willian philosophy proof that Christ died for all men to be saved from the wrath of God, so please do not think for a moment that I tell you to "take his spiritual advice over what God actually teaches", but, rather, discern his heart's destruction of "what God actually teaches".

The Word of God concerning the concept of "repent" during a person's lifetime is quoted in post #2,901 (same link as above), but people like Nancy or Tom are no longer in scope with respect to the "repent" mentioned by Lord Jesus in Luke 13:3 because those people departed Earth.

But you said they both knew of the Christ, and God did Inspire to be written that His Salvation has appeared to "ALL" men and "Repent" has always been part of God's Salvation. And you also detailed for me, the Choice both Tom and Nancy made "in their lifetime".

Why does Tom have to "Repent" again? And didn't God have patience and long suffering for Nancy, the same as Tom and others?

I love to talk about Scriptures and the God who inspired them, but you don't seem to be making sense here, considering what the scriptures say.

The words you attributed to people like Nancy have already been established for her lifetime in the following because according to Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.

Yes, the Salvation of God has appeared to all men, including Tom. And God has told Tom, as HE has all men, of the choice HE places before them. And HE also defines for them the consequences of Tom's choice. And Tom chooses to believe, and God keeps His Promise to Tom according to what God Promised to those who choose Life.

• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.

So here, The Salvation of God appeared to Nancy as well, in her lifetime. Therefore, as God Promised, He also sets before her life and death and advises her to choose life. But, as you detail in your example, she chooses to "believe Not" the Christ in her lifetime, choosing death instead.
And God keeps His Promise to Nancy according to what God Promised to those who choose death.

Both will be raised from the dead, and judged according to the choices they made, while they were alive. Is this not true?

• The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.

God chose to give them both a choice. He could have made us all robots, but this is not His Character. Perhaps you don't like this God's Choice. I have also been in situations I didn't understand or wanted. But God id God and I am not. So His WAY is fine with me.

Let's look at the fact that God brings salvation to all men (Titus 2:11).

Yes, "He brings His Salvation" to all men. Here it is, He declares. But not all men believe Him.

It is a "failure of God" when one includes people like Nancy in all men because such a concept results in "God brought salvation to Nancy". Nancy is dead and under the wrath of God, so the free-willian saying "God brought salvation to Nancy" declares that God is a failure.

You are contradicting your own position my friend. You said Nancy "Chose" to "Believe not" in her lifetime. That isn't God's Failure, He showed Nancy the same thing HE showed Tom. Did HE force them to choose Him? NO! One chose Him the other rejected Him. That isn't a failure of God at all.

Again, you presented passages that are outside the current scope of the discussion because your quotations are addressing the people on Earth, not the departed.

Do not forget, it was your buddy civic that brought up Titus 2:11 as a proof test that "God brought salvation to people like Nancy".

Civic isn't my buddy, I simply said I like him. But it was your example, not his, that showed me that God's salvation appeared to both Tom and Nancy.

Again, "God brought salvation to all men including people like Nancy" means that Christ’s atonement failed.

Perhaps in your adopted religious philosophy, this is true, but not according to the Scriptures I posted in respoce to the examples you gave me.

Lord and God Jesus Christ says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19), and here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

The Word of God expresses the exclusive Power of God regarding salvation with "and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’ In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out" (Luke 13:27-28).

Above, you asked "Does God want Nancy to die", so, now, God has me point at Luke 13:27 while asking you, are people like Nancy cast into the outer darkness according to the Power of God?

Well I don't hold to the popular religious philosophy that God raises those who choose death, gives them immortality, that tortures them for eons in a fire reserved for immortal angels. But if a man chooses the rewards of this world and this life over living "soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world", looking for a New earth and a new heaven wherein dwells righteousness, then I believe God is faithful to keep His Promises. He will let Nancy live as she chooses.

Also, I ask you, does God want the Apostle Peter to live?

Thank you for the question, Here, I'll let God answer for Himself.

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

I believe God desired that both Nancy and Peter should live. But according to Him, it's a choice all men must make, as the Scriptures I posted detail.

You wrote

​

He doesn't say, "turn to Wesley" or "turn to Calvin" or "turn to White" or the Pope of Russell, or anyone else. It just seems to me that this is an important distinction given all His Warnings about men "who profess to know god, but by their works, they deny Him".​

​

which is true!

Free-will is similar to self-will, so I encourage you and all people who daringly say "I chose to believe in Jesus" to meditate on the Apostle Peter's words:

​

the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties​

(2 Peter 2:9-10).​

Absolutely, "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation". This would be men who turned away from their transgressions and lived "soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world", like Tom, Yes?

And also "and to keep the unrighteous under punishment "for the day of judgment" "

This would be those who refused to live "soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world", like Nancy, Yes?

"and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties

But I would disagree with your assessment of "Free Will" vs. "Self Will". A man with Free Will, can "Yield Himself" a Servant to whomever he wants to Obey. While a "Self-willed" man will only serve himself.

This would be in part, the main difference between Nancy and Tom. Nancy was "self-willed" choosing to live after the imagination of her own heart. While Tom, had "free-will" and chose to "Deny Himself" and Follow the Christ.

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS MAJESTY, KING JESUS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!!

I think I understand what you are promoting now. I appreciate your time and patience. But as a student of Scriptures, I don't believe the philosophy you are promoting aligns with the teaching of the Christ "of the Bible".

Thanks again.

 

[TomL]

@TomL


False that is not scripture. In fact its Christs responsibility to save all whom the Father gave Him to save. Jn 17:2-3

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they[whom given] might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

That guarantees they all will believe in Him,\know Him. Its a covenant transaction Jer 31 33-34

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

You ignored the scripture posted

John 3:14–19 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil.

first we see Ggod saved those who believe on Christ

John 5:39–40 (NASB 2020) — 39 “You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Then we see some men who are unwilling to come to (believe on)Christ

It was a matter of their will

Christ came to save the world, but some were unwilling

 

[brightfame52]

You ignored the scripture posted

John 3:14–19 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil.

first we see Ggod saved those who believe on Christ

John 5:39–40 (NASB 2020) — 39 “You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Then we see some men who are unwilling to come to (believe on)Christ

It was a matter of their will

Christ came to save the world, but some were unwilling

You just make things up

 

[TomL]

You just make things up

Sorry, I do not make up scripture, and it is for sure your theology is based on ignoring it.



John 3:14–19 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil.

first we see God saved those who believe on Christ

John 5:39–40 (NASB 2020) — 39 “You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Then we see some men who are unwilling to come to (believe on)Christ

It was a matter of their will

Christ came to save the world, but some were unwilling

 

[Behold]

Freewill, is simply : the power of Choice.

Feel free to quote me... Reader, (down the road, and later on).

Everyone here has it, as you just chose to be here.
Will you choose to be here tomorrow?
And earlier when you had something to eat, again.....what did you choose.?

See that "power of Choice'... ?.

Welcome to your Freewill.

Be careful how you use it, as God holds you accountable for your free will choices...., as will your local police department.

 

[TomL]

Freewill, is simply : the power of Choice.

Feel free to quote me... Reader, (down the road, and later on).

Everyone here has it, as you just chose to be here.
Will you choose to be here tomorrow?
And earlier when you had something to eat, again.....what did you choose.?

See that "power of Choice'... ?.

Welcome to your Freewill.

Be careful how you use it, as God holds you accountable for your free will choices...., as will your local police department.

According to the Calvinist here there is no such thing as free will. Determinism and fatalism is what they hold to

 

[civic]

According to the Calvinist here there is no such thing as free will. Determinism and fatalism is what they hold to

Yep not even God is free in their theistic deterministic world view . I say world view since it’s unbiblical. The biblical view don’t portray God or man the way the Calvinist does. It’s an insult to both God and man, theology and anthropology.

 

[Kermos]

But you said in your example, that in Nancy's "lifetime" she made a choice. She "chooses to believe not in Christ." right until her dying thoughts".

God caused me to preface that portion example with "according to Free-willian Philosophy".

As a reminder, in the prior post, God caused me to write to you that the current discussion has turned to Christ's atonement, and the Tom and Nancy example illustrates the Free-Willian Philosopher's failure atonement of Christ.

She was still alive when she made the choice, according to the details of the post you directed me too. I'm not sure then, how the "choices" men make in their lifetime have no bearing on the example you gave me.

The example established the difference between Tom and Nancy at the time of death with their states being founded in Free-Willian Philosophy; in other words, Tom was a believer at his death according to free-willians, but Nancy was an unbeliever at her death.

I'm just a dumb cowboy, perhaps I am misunderstanding your example.

Oh, I don't think you are dumb as you self ascribe. In your prior post, you clearly understood there is a difference between your belief and my belief when you wrote "your religion".

I appreciate what you are trying to promote, really I do. But God does inspire it to be written;

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

In your example you said "if Nancy of the world "chooses to believe not in Christ."

Therefore, the Salvation of God must also have appeared to Nancy, as it did all men, Yes? And therefore, God also set before her, Life and Death, and advised her to choose life, as HE does all men, Yes? This aligns with Scriptures, Yes? In the example you gave, both Tom and Nancy were given the Choice God defined, Yes? And they made their choice, and you defined for me what that choice was. Now they are both dead and waiting for the final judgment in which God will resurrect them and as HE says, Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man "according as his work shall be".

Where am I departing from the topic?

You departed from the current scope of the discussion when you wrote about Nancy when she was walking the Earth.

Your friend civic pushed the conversation towards Christ's atonement, and TomL accused me of conflating Christ's atonement with free-will.

civic presented John 1:29, Hebrews 2:9, Titus 2:11, Titus 3:4, John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, and 2 Corinthians 5:14 to me recently as his Free-willian Philosophy proof that Christ's atonement applies to all men.

My response to civic's post can be found at post #2,963.

But you said they both knew of the Christ, and God did Inspire to be written that His Salvation has appeared to "ALL" men and "Repent" has always been part of God's Salvation. And you also detailed for me, the Choice both Tom and Nancy made "in their lifetime".

Why does Tom have to "Repent" again? And didn't God have patience and long suffering for Nancy, the same as Tom and others?

I love to talk about Scriptures and the God who inspired them, but you don't seem to be making sense here, considering what the scriptures say.

God has me here proclaiming the Word of God, and you are welcome here.

Yes, the Salvation of God has appeared to all men, including Tom. And God has told Tom, as HE has all men, of the choice HE places before them. And HE also defines for them the consequences of Tom's choice. And Tom chooses to believe, and God keeps His Promise to Tom according to what God Promised to those who choose Life.



So here, The Salvation of God appeared to Nancy as well, in her lifetime. Therefore, as God Promised, He also sets before her life and death and advises her to choose life. But, as you detail in your example, she chooses to "believe Not" the Christ in her lifetime, choosing death instead.
And God keeps His Promise to Nancy according to what God Promised to those who choose death.

Both will be raised from the dead, and judged according to the choices they made, while they were alive. Is this not true?



God chose to give them both a choice. He could have made us all robots, but this is not His Character. Perhaps you don't like this God's Choice. I have also been in situations I didn't understand or wanted. But God id God and I am not. So His WAY is fine with me.

Your question, while valid, is outside the scope of this current portion of discourse.

According to Free-willian Philosophy, Nancy is covered by Christ's atonement for her sins thus saved from the wrath of God (salvation) because she is part of "all men" in the conclusive declaration "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men," (Titus 2:11).

You conveyed that people like Nancy are part of "all men" which means the Christ's salvation fails for people like Nancy (her "choice" while on Earth is relevant based upon the example).

The focal point here is that Christ brought people like Nancy salvation, but that salvation was wasted and a failure atonement.

This according to Free-willian Philosophy.

Yes, "He brings His Salvation" to all men. Here it is, He declares. But not all men believe Him.



You are contradicting your own position my friend. You said Nancy "Chose" to "Believe not" in her lifetime. That isn't God's Failure, He showed Nancy the same thing HE showed Tom. Did HE force them to choose Him? NO! One chose Him the other rejected Him. That isn't a failure of God at all.



Civic isn't my buddy, I simply said I like him. But it was your example, not his, that showed me that God's salvation appeared to both Tom and Nancy.


Perhaps in your adopted religious philosophy, this is true, but not according to the Scriptures I posted in respoce to the examples you gave me.

You stepped into this portion of the conversation, so please honor where the current conversation stands. The Lord willing, we can proceed to discuss the Word of God about the time of walking on Earth later.

Again, civic presented John 1:29, Hebrews 2:9, Titus 2:11, Titus 3:4, John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, and 2 Corinthians 5:14 to me recently as his Free-willian Philosophy proof that Christ's atonement applies to all men and the whole world.

My response to civic's post can be found at post #2,963.

Well I don't hold to the popular religious philosophy that God raises those who choose death, gives them immortality, that tortures them for eons in a fire reserved for immortal angels. But if a man chooses the rewards of this world and this life over living "soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world", looking for a New earth and a new heaven wherein dwells righteousness, then I believe God is faithful to keep His Promises. He will let Nancy live as she chooses.

You wrote that you believe the Word of God, but just now you conveyed that you do not believe the Word of God who says "these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matthew 25:46).

Thank you for the question, Here, I'll let God answer for Himself.

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

I believe God desired that both Nancy and Peter should live. But according to Him, it's a choice all men must make, as the Scriptures I posted detail.



Absolutely, "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation". This would be men who turned away from their transgressions and lived "soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world", like Tom, Yes?

And also "and to keep the unrighteous under punishment "for the day of judgment" "

This would be those who refused to live "soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world", like Nancy, Yes?

"and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties

But I would disagree with your assessment of "Free Will" vs. "Self Will". A man with Free Will, can "Yield Himself" a Servant to whomever he wants to Obey. While a "Self-willed" man will only serve himself.

This would be in part, the main difference between Nancy and Tom. Nancy was "self-willed" choosing to live after the imagination of her own heart. While Tom, had "free-will" and chose to "Deny Himself" and Follow the Christ.

There is no third type of person in view with Peter's writing, so a free-will person is absent from his writing. There are inly two types of people in view, the children of God and the children of wrath:

the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties
(2 Peter 2:9-10).
​

Be careful, lest you adulterate the Apostle's words causing you to be a liar.

I think I understand what you are promoting now. I appreciate your time and patience. But as a student of Scriptures, I don't believe the philosophy you are promoting aligns with the teaching of the Christ "of the Bible".

Thanks again.

Do you really believe the Christ of the Bible? Please scan up in this post to see Matthew 25:46.

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE HOLY WORD OF GOD!!!

 

[civic]

God caused me to preface that portion example with "according to Free-willian Philosophy".

As a reminder, in the prior post, God caused me to write to you that the current discussion has turned to Christ's atonement, and the Tom and Nancy example illustrates the Free-Willian Philosopher's failure atonement of Christ.



The example established the difference between Tom and Nancy at the time of death with their states being founded in Free-Willian Philosophy; in other words, Tom was a believer at his death according to free-willians, but Nancy was an unbeliever at her death.



Oh, I don't think you are dumb as you self ascribe. In your prior post, you clearly understood there is a difference between your belief and my belief when you wrote "your religion".



You departed from the current scope of the discussion when you wrote about Nancy when she was walking the Earth.

Your friend civic pushed the conversation towards Christ's atonement, and TomL accused me of conflating Christ's atonement with free-will.

civic presented John 1:29, Hebrews 2:9, Titus 2:11, Titus 3:4, John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, and 2 Corinthians 5:14 to me recently as his Free-willian Philosophy proof that Christ's atonement applies to all men.

My response to civic's post can be found at post #2,963.



God has me here proclaiming the Word of God, and you are welcome here.



Your question, while valid, is outside the scope of this current portion of discourse.

According to Free-willian Philosophy, Nancy is covered by Christ's atonement for her sins thus saved from the wrath of God (salvation) because she is part of "all men" in the conclusive declaration "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men," (Titus 2:11).

You conveyed that people like Nancy are part of "all men" which means the Christ's salvation fails for people like Nancy (her "choice" while on Earth is relevant based upon the example).

The focal point here is that Christ brought people like Nancy salvation, but that salvation was wasted and a failure atonement.

This according to Free-willian Philosophy.



You stepped into this portion of the conversation, so please honor where the current conversation stands. The Lord willing, we can proceed to discuss the Word of God about the time of walking on Earth later.

Again, civic presented John 1:29, Hebrews 2:9, Titus 2:11, Titus 3:4, John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, and 2 Corinthians 5:14 to me recently as his Free-willian Philosophy proof that Christ's atonement applies to all men and the whole world.

My response to civic's post can be found at post #2,963.



You wrote that you believe the Word of God, but just now you conveyed that you do not believe the Word of God who says "these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matthew 25:46).



There is no third type of person in view with Peter's writing, so a free-will person is absent from his writing. There are inly two types of people in view, the children of God and the children of wrath:

​

the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties​

(2 Peter 2:9-10).​

​

Be careful, lest you adulterate the Apostle's words causing you to be a liar.



Do you really believe the Christ of the Bible? Please scan up in this post to see Matthew 25:46.

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE HOLY WORD OF GOD!!!

Flip Wilson theology - the devil made me do it ( sin )
You reversed it god made me do it ( sin )

Both are wrong and unbiblical. As the Bible says out of the heart comes all kinds of evil and when one is tempted to sin no one can say God tempted me but you are carried away by your own lusts. The above two Bible passages are Paraphrased for simple understanding.

hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry, I do not make up scripture, and it is for sure your theology is based on ignoring it.



John 3:14–19 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil.

first we see God saved those who believe on Christ

John 5:39–40 (NASB 2020) — 39 “You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Then we see some men who are unwilling to come to (believe on)Christ

It was a matter of their will

Christ came to save the world, but some were unwilling

You may as well write your own freewill bible

 

[civic]

You may as well write your own freewill bible

You might as well join the jihadists and the Koran. It’s the same fatalist, determinist god.