civic
Well-known member
They were unregenerate the nation of Israel in the OT. God had not given them a new heart.
hope this helps !!!
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
hope this helps !!!
Glad to see you believe that a new heart must be given so one can repent!
Do you know (I'm sure you do) the meaning of peradventure? By chance; perhaps; it may be.
God does not grant this the gift of grace to all..... neither does he owe it to anyone.
civic
Well-known member
Nope I never said and neither does the Bible say repentance is ever given to an unbeliever and neither is faith. Not one scripture ever states that an unbelieving reprobate god hating sinner is ever granted faith.
Would you like to take back those words before I make a post proving you are wrong.
I'll give you time, and will first run a errand~be back later this afternoon EST.
civic
Well-known member
Quote your scripture and we shall see. Point us to an unbeliever given faith by God.
Christ has me here proclaiming Christian Truth (John 14:6) because Christ made me a Christian who loves Christ who loves me.
Instead of dismissing the cogent and Spiritually accurate post that God caused me to write, why don't you systematically address the points made in the post one by one? Here is the post:
Your definition of "experience" for the word "see" invalidates the true definition of "see" which is "perceive", and this post explores the language and definitions of the word see"see", and this exploration includes an examination of your very own applications of the word "see".
In your writings here, you use "seeing" to indicate "perceiving" in a manner similar to your previous use of "sight" to indicate "perceive" (proof post #2,719), and neither of your usages, then nor now, indicate "experience", but both of your usages indicate "perceive". Let's explore the definition of the Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) in Truth (John 14:6).
Your thoughts are that Jesus uses "see" to indicate "experience" instead of "perceive" because you found "experience" in the 3rd level definition on BibleHub.com for the Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) specifically assigned to John 3:36 and Luke 17:22 with no mention of John 3:3 in the 3rd level definition, yet even John 3:36 and Luke 17:22 are fundamentally "perceive" over just "experience".
The Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) denotes visual perception (BibleHub.com's 1st level definition), and the Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) connotes mental perception (BibleHub.com's 2nd level definition), yet the Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) fails to mean experience by perceiving in all situations because a person can experience an event without perceiving the event which renders invalid your application of experience by perceiving prioritizing BibleHub.com's 3rd level definition, and the reciprocal is equally invalid in that one person can perceive a second person yet the first person experiences to perceive not the second person thus confirming your illegal linguistics based upon BibleHub.com's 3rd level definition; therefore, both denotation and connotation for the Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) must by definition include "perception" as an isolated concept.
In the Word of God, the word "SEEING" specifically corresponds to "PERCEIVE" as is found in "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE'" (Matthew 13:14), and the Hebrew of Isaiah 6:9 proves this absolute "SEEING" with purely "PERCEIVE" relationship wherein a certain person sees the Word of God yet fails to righteously perceive the Word of God because such a one cannot know that which he or she fails perceive in the righteous Holy Spirit of God, and the Word of God is "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).
You wrote "I don't think you're seeing things clearly" in which you use "seeing" to fundamentally indicate "perceiving" against me, and you deny Jesus uses "see" to fundamentally indicate "perceive", so you believe in the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) shown in the below left hand wrong side instead of the pure and Holy Word of God in the below right hand right side:
| The traditions of men | The Word of God | |
| Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God (The Book of Free-willians 3:3) | Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God. (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3) |
Your hypocrisy about the word "see" is there for all to SEE.
By the way, your writing there offensively bears false witness against the Word of God and me.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE REDEEMER!!!
Please ping me, too.
civic
Well-known member
You are conflating truth with Calvinism.
In the same way many Calvinists conflate tulip with the gospel.
You confuse free-willian philosophy with Christian Truth (John 14:6), for example, you believe the traditions of men as follows:
| The traditions of men | The Word of God | |
| Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God (The Book of Free-willians 3:3) | Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God. (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3) |
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE HOLY WORD OF GOD!!!
civic
Well-known member
I have a whole thread dedicated to the exegesis of John 3 disproving your view.
See below
civic
Well-known member
The new birth and the gospel.
Born of Water John 3
John 3:1-7. Lets look at the context of Jesus interaction with Nicodemus. All human beings have experienced natural birth on earth, if they expect to go to heaven, they must experience a supernatural spiritual birth from above. Nicodemus was a well educated religious leader who did not understand what the Saviour was talking about. Jesus was speaking about a spiritual birth, but Nicodemus thought of a physical birth.
The situation is no different today When you talk with people about being born again, they often begin to discuss their family's religious heritage, their church membership, religious ceremonies like baptism etc....Jesus being a patient teacher picked up on Nicodemus' words and further explained the new birth. To be "born of water" is to be born physically ("enter a second time into his mother's womb") but to be born again means to be born of the Spirit. Just as there are two parents for physical birth, so there are two for spiritual birth: the Spirit of God (John 3:5) and the Word of God (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23-25). The Spirit of God takes the Word of God and, when the sinner believes, imparts the life of God.Jesus was not teaching that the new birth comes through water baptism. In the NT baptism is connected with death, not birth and no amount of physical water can cause a spiritual change in a person.
The emphasis in John 3:14-21 is on believing, because salvation comes through faith. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Understanding Jesus teaching in John 3 on Born Again !
John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
So lets go through this point by point.
1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- God causes us to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in both cases of birth God is the Active One and the one who is birthed is passive in the process.
There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.
Now The PARALLELS and CONTRASTS Jesus makes in the passage are the following 10 by reading through and observing the passage :
1- the 2 births
2- the wind and the spirit
3- flesh and the spirit
4- water and spirit
5- earthly and heavenly things
6- effects of both the wind and spirit
7- the seen with the unseen
8- the physical with the supernatural
9- knowing and not knowing, understanding and not understanding
10- entering the kingdom and not entering the kingdom
summary- just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again)
Ezekiel 18 declares : “a NEW SPIRIT I WILL (future) put WITHIN them…” These predictions mean that even Ezekiel was not regenerated, nor was any man prior to Ezekiel. And Ezekiel lived near the end of the OT time period. Scripture talks about 2 kinds of life. Physical and Spiritual. What other “kind of life” does the Bible talk about other than the life we are given in the flesh when we are born of the flesh, and eternal life which we are given when we are born of the Spirit? There is no other “kind of life” taught about in the Bible. When a man is born of the eternal Spirit, by the eternal Word of God, he is given eternal life. A man is regenerated when He is made alive with Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:5). Can a man be “made alive with Jesus Christ” apart from having Jesus Christ dwelling in him? Also, Paul explicitly states, “You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU. And if any man HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST HE IS NONE OF HIS.” (Rom. 8:9). We are born again THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD (1Peter 1:3). Can a man be born again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ before Jesus Christ actually rose again from the dead? No so Jesus in John 3 was not talking about spiritual life in the OT but the promise of the Spirit that would come at Pentecost when His spirit would be poured out upon all who believe in Him and become born again children of God from the preaching of the gospel and receiving Him as Lord.
Biblical Order of Salvation below:
1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Rom 8:30
9- Sanctification- Rom 8
10- Glorification Rom 8:30
hope this helps !!!
I have a whole thread dedicated to the exegesis of John 3 disproving your view.
See below
What you have is the traditions of men:
| The traditions of men | The Word of God | |
| Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God (The Book of Free-willians 3:3) | Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God. (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3) |
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE HOLY WORD OF GOD!!!
civic
Well-known member
Projecting as your posts reveal the teachings of the man Calvin. I teach what Christ taught. He is my primary source for truth followed by the Apostles who were taught directly by Jesus. They affirm His teachings not contradict them.
hope this helps !!!
If you taught the teachings of Christ, then you would teach exactly what Christ says without any input from any man including you. Since your commentary of "I can perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God before being born of God" is required to arrive at your traditions of men, then your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is visible on the left wrong side below:
| The traditions of men | The Word of God | |
| Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God (The Book of Free-willians 3:3) | Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God. (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3) |
Lord Jesus says you cannot perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God without first being born of God.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GIVER OF LIFE!!
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Rockson
Well-known member
Well at least you're not denying most well versed on their subject Calvinists would think you're extreme.
So you're appealing to divine infallibility in what you write. Sorry Kermos that might work among the ignorant who accept your infallibility claim but not among the wise.
No I said perceive by experience. That doesn't mean you can't perceive a mental concept of what the words mean. I could say unless you have a ticket you can't perceive by experience a sports event at a stadium. You can however understand the concept of the Kingdom of the stadium so what you Calvinists are trying to say is one can't even conceive of what the words mean. Not true.
Sorry not true.
civic
Well-known member
Yep
Rockson, please reply in detail to the following that was specifically addressed to you.
Your definition of "experience" for the word "see" invalidates the true definition of "see" which is "perceive", and this post explores the language and definitions of the word see"see", and this exploration includes an examination of your very own applications of the word "see".
In your writings here, you use "seeing" to indicate "perceiving" in a manner similar to your previous use of "sight" to indicate "perceive" (proof post #2,719), and neither of your usages, then nor now, indicate "experience", but both of your usages indicate "perceive". Let's explore the definition of the Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) in Truth (John 14:6).
Your thoughts are that Jesus uses "see" to indicate "experience" instead of "perceive" because you found "experience" in the 3rd level definition on BibleHub.com for the Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) specifically assigned to John 3:36 and Luke 17:22 with no mention of John 3:3 in the 3rd level definition, yet even John 3:36 and Luke 17:22 are fundamentally "perceive" over just "experience".
The Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) denotes visual perception (BibleHub.com's 1st level definition), and the Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) connotes mental perception (BibleHub.com's 2nd level definition), yet the Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) fails to mean experience by perceiving in all situations because a person can experience an event without perceiving the event which renders invalid your application of experience by perceiving prioritizing BibleHub.com's 3rd level definition, and the reciprocal is equally invalid in that one person can perceive a second person yet the first person experiences to perceive not the second person thus confirming your illegal linguistics based upon BibleHub.com's 3rd level definition; therefore, both denotation and connotation for the Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) must by definition include "perception" as an isolated concept.
In the Word of God, the word "SEEING" specifically corresponds to "PERCEIVE" as is found in "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE'" (Matthew 13:14), and the Hebrew of Isaiah 6:9 proves this absolute "SEEING" with purely "PERCEIVE" relationship wherein a certain person sees the Word of God yet fails to righteously perceive the Word of God because such a one cannot know that which he or she fails perceive in the righteous Holy Spirit of God, and the Word of God is "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).
You wrote "I don't think you're seeing things clearly" in which you use "seeing" to fundamentally indicate "perceiving" against me, and you deny Jesus uses "see" to fundamentally indicate "perceive", so you believe in the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) shown in the below left hand wrong side instead of the pure and Holy Word of God in the below right hand right side:
| The traditions of men | The Word of God | |
| Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God (The Book of Free-willians 3:3) | Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God. (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3) |
Your hypocrisy about the word "see" is there for all to SEE.
By the way, your writing there offensively bears false witness against the Word of God and me.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE REDEEMER!!!
At what point does one begin to "see the Kingdom of God"? John 3:3 clearly says at the point when one is "born again".
By definition, when one is "born again" he becomes a "child of God" so the two states are synonymous.
John 1:12 clearly states that one becomes a child of God when he receives Christ and believes on His name.
(John 1:12) But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
Conclusion: Belief in Christ precedes being born again. Calvinism comes crashing down before your very eyes.
civic
Well-known member
ditto
Civic you had better hope that God grants repentance and faith, or else, there is no hope for any of us, none whatsoever. The reason being is this: all are without strength (spiritual to do good) to help themselves, being under the power of sin and the devil himself.
Christ died for us while we were unable to obey Him, and without ability to save ourselves, from anything within ourselves. This weakness or inability is no doubt sinful; but it is our inability, not our guilt, that the Apostle here designates. When we were unable to keep the law of God, or do anything towards our deliverance from Divine wrath, Christ interposed, and died for those whom He came to redeem.
The rest of chapter five Paul will prove his point by teaches us that we were given the righteousness of God based upon the obedience of one person, that is Christ, not one thing did we did to earn the free gift of life, not one~or else it ceases to be a gift, but a debt God owes man! If a debt owed, then Christ died in vain.
Galatians 2:21
“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”
The law in this verse means any commandment that said..... "This DO and live, sin, and died."
So, you say there is not one scripture which teaches that faith and repentance is ever given to unbelieving, reprobate, God hating sinner.
Philippians 1:29
“For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;”
civic, this scriptures is so clear, that it is impossible to escape its teachings, unless one is hellbent on pushing is bias position above the word of God.
I have more, but I'm going to keep this post as short as possible, thinking much more will be said.
Let us consider the subject of repentance being a work of the sinner who at enmity against God, or, a gift given to God's elect, or I could say the fruit of the new man that God created within his elect. Either or, both are true.
The Author and efficient cause of repentance is not man himself, but God; “then hath God also granted repentance to the Gentiles” (Acts 11:18), it is not in the power of man to repent of himself, for he is by nature blind, and has no sight and sense of sin; his understanding is darkened with respect unto it, and he is darkness itself till made light in the Lord; and until he has a sight and sense of sin he can never truly repent of it; his heart is hard and obdurate, his heart is an heart of stone, and he cannot really repent of sin until that stony heart is taken away, and an heart of flesh is given; and whenever he becomes sensible of his need of repentance, he prays to God for it, saying, “Turn thou me, and I shall be turned”: nor do exhortations to repentance suppose it in the power of man to repent of himself; since these are only designed to bring him to a sense of his need of it, and of his obligation to it, and of his impotence to it of himself through the hardness of his heart, and to direct him to seek it of God, who only can give it. But only those who have been called into this grace, have the power and the desire to repent, but not until then. It is a gift of the new covenant of grace. Hebrews 8:10-13.
The sole efficient cause and author of repentance is God, Father, Son, and Spirit. God the Father, “if God peradventure will give them repentance” (2 Tim. 2:25). Christ, the Son of God, as mediator, is exalted “to give repentance unto Israel, and forgiveness of sins” (Acts 5:31), and the Spirit of God reproves for sin, convinces of it, and works repentance for it (John 16:8).
The moving cause of it is the free grace of God; it is a grant and favour from him, a gift of Christ, which he, as a prince and a savior bestows (Acts 11:18; 5:31), and an operation of the power and grace of the Spirit of God, and entirely flows from the sovereign will and mercy of God, “who hath mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth” (Rom. 9:18), not giving grace to repent.
Close for now with this wonderful scripture that sums it up so beautifully: biblical repentance, in the exercise of it, follows upon real conversion and divine instruction,.....
“Surely after that I was turned I repented, and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.” (Jeremiah 31:19)....
Upon such a turn as is made by powerful and efficacious grace, and upon such instruction as leads into the true nature of sin, the effect of which is blushing shame and confusion. All of God's children said...AMEN, and AMEN.
