praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I agree. The issue is with how YOU apply works.
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
I agree. The issue is with how YOU apply works.
brightfame52
Well-known member
works Salvation denies Salvation by Grace through Faith. Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
The Messenger is of God. Faith to faith.
Faith is not a work and it is of yourself
Acts 16:30–31 (NASB 2020) — 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
not wait or hope for a gift of faith
yes but not one person
brightfame52
Well-known member
Faith comes by Hearing. And you have to be of God to hear
Which you assume to mean you must first be unconditionally selected
Rather than if you are of God you believe God's word and you would recognize what Christ and his apostles are teaching are his word
ignoring all these verses showing man capable of belief
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?
Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief
Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed
Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven
Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”
unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe
Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief
2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As is the preaching of it.
Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Something done, an act, deed , the greek word used is ergon strongs 2041
- business, employment, that which any one is occupied
- that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
- any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
- an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
So you are insisting that faith is a work?
Faith is never a work relative to the actions of another. Faith is trusting the work of another that you can not accomplish yourself.
Right! To call faith a work is to confuse what faith is. Faith is a rejection of self effort and the dependence upon another - Christ.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Im going to give you an article that describes what I believe:
Faith: A gift? A work? Something in Between?
𝕾𝖎𝖓𝖓𝖊𝖗 𝕾𝖆𝖛𝖊𝖉
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Follow
4 min read
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Dec 26, 2022
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My last post explained why the Arminian view of salvation ultimately is salvation by works. I explained that a “work” as conceptualized by Paul included the idea of doing something in exchange for a reward. The Arminian idea of justification by faith, therefore, necessarily leads to justification by works. In today’s post I’d like to look at and explore another reason, and a rather simple one, as to why Arminianism constitutes salvation by works: Faith is a work. More specifically, the activity of faith, which is believing, is a work. Hearing such a thing might sound like nails on a chalkboard even to many “Reformed” and “Sovereign Grace” folks. I have seen individuals from these backgrounds spinning their wheels trying to explain why faith somehow is and is not a work, and it seems to me that there is just as much confusion among sovereign grace affirming believers as there is among Arminians on this issue.
Let’s start off by simply looking at the definition of what a “work” is. Here is how a “work” is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition:
1.
a. Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something
3.
a. Something that one is doing, making, or performing, especially as an occupation or undertaking; a duty or task
Chambers’ is another reputible English Dictionary which gives nearly identical definitions:
1 physical or mental effort made in order to achieve or make something
8 anything done, managed, made or achieved, etc;
Mounce’s Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament gives this as the first definition for the Greek word for “work”:
ἔργον
ergon
anything done or to be done;
So a “work” by definition is simply that which someone does, whether physically or mentally. It is really just that simple. Let us now go to the Scriptures to see how faith is categorized:
John 6:28–29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
The Son of God directly, in no uncertain terms, categorizes faith as a work in this verse. It is something that a person does. Let’s look at another text:
Acts 16:30–31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Paul was asked directly by the jailor what he must do to be saved. Paul could have said “You don’t have to do anything!”, but that’s not what he said. He said that the jailor needed to do something, namely, believe. A work is something that is done, therefore believing is a work.
Moreover, believing is a commandment which is pleasing to God. If you asked the average free-willer if a person gets to heaven by commandment-keeping, they would emphatically deny this, yet believing is categorized as exactly that:
1 John 3:22–23 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. (23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Now, some will object that faith is a gift of God, and therefore is not a work. This is partially correct. I will explain. Faith is a God-given capacity which is implanted within the elect sinner upon regeneration. Historically theologians have referred to this as the habit or “seed” of faith. Elect, regenerate infants possess the habit or capacity of faith. What they do not possess is the activity of faith, i.e believing. Believing is what the sinner does, and is therefore his/her own, and is a work. This is why historically Arminianism was condemned all around by Reformed, Presbyterian and Particular Baptists as nothing short of works salvation. Because Arminians posited that a man was saved on the basis of his act of believing. Thus while it is true that the habit or capacity of faith is a gift of God, the act of faith is man’s act, not God’s. In other words, man believes, God does not believe for man, and therefore believing is a man’s doing, or work. It is that simple.
Whenever this perspective is brought up, there will inevitably be several texts of scripture that will be brought up contrasting faith with works. I will probably address these in later posts, Lord willing. For now I simply want to point out what should be rather obvious from Scripture. If we are just going by the dictionary definition, believing is a work.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Im going to give you an article that describes what I believe:
Faith: A gift? A work? Something in Between?
𝕾𝖎𝖓𝖓𝖊𝖗 𝕾𝖆𝖛𝖊𝖉
·
Follow
4 min read
·
Dec 26, 2022
https://medium.com/m/signin?actionU...7e---------------------clap_footer-----------
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My last post explained why the Arminian view of salvation ultimately is salvation by works. I explained that a “work” as conceptualized by Paul included the idea of doing something in exchange for a reward. The Arminian idea of justification by faith, therefore, necessarily leads to justification by works. In today’s post I’d like to look at and explore another reason, and a rather simple one, as to why Arminianism constitutes salvation by works: Faith is a work. More specifically, the activity of faith, which is believing, is a work. Hearing such a thing might sound like nails on a chalkboard even to many “Reformed” and “Sovereign Grace” folks. I have seen individuals from these backgrounds spinning their wheels trying to explain why faith somehow is and is not a work, and it seems to me that there is just as much confusion among sovereign grace affirming believers as there is among Arminians on this issue.
Let’s start off by simply looking at the definition of what a “work” is. Here is how a “work” is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition:
1.
a. Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something
3.
a. Something that one is doing, making, or performing, especially as an occupation or undertaking; a duty or task
Chambers’ is another reputible English Dictionary which gives nearly identical definitions:
1 physical or mental effort made in order to achieve or make something
8 anything done, managed, made or achieved, etc;
Mounce’s Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament gives this as the first definition for the Greek word for “work”:
ἔργον
ergon
anything done or to be done;
So a “work” by definition is simply that which someone does, whether physically or mentally. It is really just that simple. Let us now go to the Scriptures to see how faith is categorized:
John 6:28–29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
The Son of God directly, in no uncertain terms, categorizes faith as a work in this verse. It is something that a person does. Let’s look at another text:
Acts 16:30–31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Paul was asked directly by the jailor what he must do to be saved. Paul could have said “You don’t have to do anything!”, but that’s not what he said. He said that the jailor needed to do something, namely, believe. A work is something that is done, therefore believing is a work.
Moreover, believing is a commandment which is pleasing to God. If you asked the average free-willer if a person gets to heaven by commandment-keeping, they would emphatically deny this, yet believing is categorized as exactly that:
1 John 3:22–23 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. (23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Now, some will object that faith is a gift of God, and therefore is not a work. This is partially correct. I will explain. Faith is a God-given capacity which is implanted within the elect sinner upon regeneration. Historically theologians have referred to this as the habit or “seed” of faith. Elect, regenerate infants possess the habit or capacity of faith. What they do not possess is the activity of faith, i.e believing. Believing is what the sinner does, and is therefore his/her own, and is a work. This is why historically Arminianism was condemned all around by Reformed, Presbyterian and Particular Baptists as nothing short of works salvation. Because Arminians posited that a man was saved on the basis of his act of believing. Thus while it is true that the habit or capacity of faith is a gift of God, the act of faith is man’s act, not God’s. In other words, man believes, God does not believe for man, and therefore believing is a man’s doing, or work. It is that simple.
Whenever this perspective is brought up, there will inevitably be several texts of scripture that will be brought up contrasting faith with works. I will probably address these in later posts, Lord willing. For now I simply want to point out what should be rather obvious from Scripture. If we are just going by the dictionary definition, believing is a work.
So you are going to take his position as detailed above? Please confirm.
To answer this link,
Work requires effort. Christ worked to secure salvation based upon the demands of His own Character. Christ did the work. No one else can do that work. Only He could.
Believing that Christ did something "for you" is faith in the actions/work of another.
No matter how you try to "slice" this, there is no scenario wherein there is "effort" involved in faith.
Work is clearly defined in the Scriptures.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
That is work and effort to accomplish the duty of man.
Have you ever stopped to think that there is a reason Christ had to wear the "Crown of Thorns" His enemies made for Him? The bitter herbs of Passover.
Christ did for man what man can not do for Himself. There is no scenario wherein faith from mankind is ever equals any meaningful effort.
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
civic
Well-known member
And the disciples could not and did not understand the gospel and they were Gods elect / chosen sheep.
So much for your false doctrines learned from Calvin.
Your whole systematic was just destroyed by the elect sheep who could not understand the gospel while walking with Jesus for 3 years.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Wrong read my last post , that’s just another single verse ripped out of its context. It has a specific application in that context with Jesus audience
You have a problemIm going to give you an article that describes what I believe:
Faith: A gift? A work? Something in Between?
𝕾𝖎𝖓𝖓𝖊𝖗 𝕾𝖆𝖛𝖊𝖉
·
Follow
4 min read
·
Dec 26, 2022
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My last post explained why the Arminian view of salvation ultimately is salvation by works. I explained that a “work” as conceptualized by Paul included the idea of doing something in exchange for a reward. The Arminian idea of justification by faith, therefore, necessarily leads to justification by works. In today’s post I’d like to look at and explore another reason, and a rather simple one, as to why Arminianism constitutes salvation by works: Faith is a work. More specifically, the activity of faith, which is believing, is a work. Hearing such a thing might sound like nails on a chalkboard even to many “Reformed” and “Sovereign Grace” folks. I have seen individuals from these backgrounds spinning their wheels trying to explain why faith somehow is and is not a work, and it seems to me that there is just as much confusion among sovereign grace affirming believers as there is among Arminians on this issue.
Let’s start off by simply looking at the definition of what a “work” is. Here is how a “work” is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition:
1.
a. Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something
3.
a. Something that one is doing, making, or performing, especially as an occupation or undertaking; a duty or task
Chambers’ is another reputible English Dictionary which gives nearly identical definitions:
1 physical or mental effort made in order to achieve or make something
8 anything done, managed, made or achieved, etc;
Mounce’s Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament gives this as the first definition for the Greek word for “work”:
ἔργον
ergon
anything done or to be done;
So a “work” by definition is simply that which someone does, whether physically or mentally. It is really just that simple. Let us now go to the Scriptures to see how faith is categorized:
John 6:28–29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
The Son of God directly, in no uncertain terms, categorizes faith as a work in this verse. It is something that a person does. Let’s look at another text:
Acts 16:30–31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Paul was asked directly by the jailor what he must do to be saved. Paul could have said “You don’t have to do anything!”, but that’s not what he said. He said that the jailor needed to do something, namely, believe. A work is something that is done, therefore believing is a work.
Moreover, believing is a commandment which is pleasing to God. If you asked the average free-willer if a person gets to heaven by commandment-keeping, they would emphatically deny this, yet believing is categorized as exactly that:
1 John 3:22–23 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. (23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Now, some will object that faith is a gift of God, and therefore is not a work. This is partially correct. I will explain. Faith is a God-given capacity which is implanted within the elect sinner upon regeneration. Historically theologians have referred to this as the habit or “seed” of faith. Elect, regenerate infants possess the habit or capacity of faith. What they do not possess is the activity of faith, i.e believing. Believing is what the sinner does, and is therefore his/her own, and is a work. This is why historically Arminianism was condemned all around by Reformed, Presbyterian and Particular Baptists as nothing short of works salvation. Because Arminians posited that a man was saved on the basis of his act of believing. Thus while it is true that the habit or capacity of faith is a gift of God, the act of faith is man’s act, not God’s. In other words, man believes, God does not believe for man, and therefore believing is a man’s doing, or work. It is that simple.
Whenever this perspective is brought up, there will inevitably be several texts of scripture that will be brought up contrasting faith with works. I will probably address these in later posts, Lord willing. For now I simply want to point out what should be rather obvious from Scripture. If we are just going by the dictionary definition, believing is a work.
Romans 4:1–5 (NASB 2020) — 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
scripture does not support you
and regeneration - the impartation of life follows after faith
John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.
John 5:24–25 (NASB 2020) — 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. 25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
There is no life apart from Christ, so regeneration must follow after faith in Christ
brightfame52
Well-known member
Did you read the article ? I endorse it
brightfame52
Well-known member
The disciples were born of God except Judas.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Did you read the article ? I endorse it, believing is a work
civic
Well-known member
And they didn’t understand the gospel which completely refutes your doctrine
