dwight92070
Well-known member
Okay, true - so I stated it wrong, but if the apostles are commanded to baptize disciples, then the disciples must be willing to follow Jesus' command as well, and be baptized, correct?
Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation
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dwight92070
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Fool4Christ
Active member
Same here. Acts 22:16 is my point.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Water baptism didn't die for our sins. But the one who did said that baptism is the point at which He will remove our sins and make us whole.
Baptism into Christ was not a condition for salvation before Jesus died for our sins. But it is a condition for us under the New Covenant. And baptism is only required once, not multiple times.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
You are taking Col 2:11 and ignoring verse 12, which says that the baptism (in water) occurred before the circumcision without hands occurred. "Having been" indicates that the baptism occurred first. The circumcision done by the Holy Spirit takes place during the baptism, not before it.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Yes, the actions of faith that God commanded as LEADING TO/RESULTING IN receiving salvation: confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), repentance (Acts 3:19), and baptism (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27).
Doug Brents
Well-known member
1 Pet 3:21
Gal 3:26-27
Eph 5:26-27
Rom 6:1-7
Col 2:11-14
John 3:5
Wrong! Certainly we must believe in Him in order to be counted righteous, but just believing in Him does not make us righteous. If it did, then those to whom Jesus says, "I never knew you. Depart from me you who practice wickedness." would have been known by Him and been saved. They believed in Him, and did mighty works in His name, but they did not obey Him, and so were not known by Him or saved by Him.
We cannot be known by Him until and unless we obey Him and do what He says puts us "in Him": baptism.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Mark 16:16, which is the sister passage to Matt 28:19, states that those who believe the Gospel AND are baptized will be saved. Matt 28:19 commands the teacher to do the baptizing (meaning that the baptism that saves is a physical act, not "Spirit baptism") of every student and to teach those students to then teach baptism (an all the other commands of Jesus) to the next student, and Acts 2:38 commands the student to receive baptism. And the result of baptism is that the student will be saved, and he will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (the indwelling of the Spirit).
Sorry it was upon believing (trusting) one is given life
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Nope. Paul did not yet accept Jesus. He was still in sin three days later when Ananias came to restore his sight.
It was Ananias who gave Saul his commission from God three days after he was on the Road; God did not give the commission directly to Saul on the Road.
Nope, Saul was not still on the road. This is clear from the telling of the story in Acts 8 and in Acts 22. God sent Ananias to tell Saul what to do three days after he was on the Road. Paul skips over that part because it was not relevant to the telling of the story to King Agrippa.
Baptism in never called a sign. It is the point in time during which the Holy Spirit removes our sin (Col 2:11-14), that we die to sin and are resurrected with Christ (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14), that we are made pure and spotless as a bride for Christ (Eph 5:26-27), that we are clothed with Christ and adopted as a child of God (Gal 3:26-27), that we are saved (1 Pet 3:21).
Doug Brents
Well-known member
What does it mean to "believe"? It means to have faith, and faith means trust, and trust means to obey. And Jesus commanded that we be baptized in order to be saved (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21). Just giving intellectual assent (belief) to the Gospel leaves us lost in sin.
Sorry one who believes is saved. The faith that saves precedes the obedience
And no one mentioned intellectual assent. That is just a straw man
John 3:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 6:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Romans 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Fool4Christ
Active member
When exactly Paul was saved is not told us. What Ananias told Paul to do did not save Paul, at least not the baptism. Certainly “calling on the name of the Lord” did. Baptism was the step of faith in the Kingdom gospel, but when Paul wrote Romans 10 he said:
”But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. ”
It was on the road to Damascus that Paul acknowledged Jesus as Lord and that God raised him from the dead – Acts 9:5,6 “And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutes; it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?”
When Paul learned the Gospel of Grace, I think he knew that he was saved on the road to Damascus. That is when God showed him grace and when he believed on the risen Lord Jesus Christ. It is interesting that when Paul went to Jerusalem to tell them that gospel he preached among the Gentiles, it was Peter who came to understand their salvation saying: “But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they” (Acts 15:11).
rightlydividing.org
”But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. ”
It was on the road to Damascus that Paul acknowledged Jesus as Lord and that God raised him from the dead – Acts 9:5,6 “And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutes; it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?”
When Paul learned the Gospel of Grace, I think he knew that he was saved on the road to Damascus. That is when God showed him grace and when he believed on the risen Lord Jesus Christ. It is interesting that when Paul went to Jerusalem to tell them that gospel he preached among the Gentiles, it was Peter who came to understand their salvation saying: “But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they” (Acts 15:11).
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Discover the unsearchable riches of Christ! We encourage you to read, believe, and obey what God has to say to you in the Bible. Then begin to attend a good Bible Church where God’s Word is believed and taught. Grace Bible Church is just such a place. %
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dwight92070
Well-known member
Doug Brents said: It was Ananias who gave Saul his commission from God three days after he was on the Road; God did not give the commission directly to Saul on the Road.
That's partly true. Ananias did tell Saul in Acts 22:10-16 what God had appointed him to know and do, but this was a confirmation of what Jesus Himself told Saul while he was still on the road.
This is Paul's own testimony in Acts 26:15-18
"And I (Saul) said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But get up and stand on your feet (so he's still on the road - it doesn't say that Saul left for Damascus at this point - rather Jesus is still speaking to him); for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness ...rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from ... Satan to God that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those ... santified by faith in Me."
Paul tells us that he got his initial commission right there on the road to Damascus from Jesus Himself.
That's partly true. Ananias did tell Saul in Acts 22:10-16 what God had appointed him to know and do, but this was a confirmation of what Jesus Himself told Saul while he was still on the road.
This is Paul's own testimony in Acts 26:15-18
"And I (Saul) said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But get up and stand on your feet (so he's still on the road - it doesn't say that Saul left for Damascus at this point - rather Jesus is still speaking to him); for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness ...rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from ... Satan to God that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those ... santified by faith in Me."
Paul tells us that he got his initial commission right there on the road to Damascus from Jesus Himself.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
One who exhibits their faith through obedience is saved. But on who simply has a thought in their head that the Gospel is true is not saved.
Intellectual assent is the common connotation of "believe". But Biblical belief is not just a mental exercise, it means to have faith, and faith without action/works/obedience is dead and worthless. Dead faith cannot save.
We have been over this. Belief means faith, and faith means trust, and trust requires obedience. If you don't obey then you don't really trust/have faith/believe. All of these are great verses about "believing" (having faith), but they do not tell us what form that faith must take. There are many passages that do tell us what form that faith must take, like:
Rom 10:10, which says that confession "with the mouth" (obviously a physical action) results in (meaning it must come before) salvation being received.
Rom 6:1-7, which tells us that baptism is the point at which we die to sin and are united with Jesus' death and resurrection.
Col 2:11-14, which tells us that during baptism the Holy Spirit cuts sin from us and unites us with Christ's death and resurrection
Eph 5:26-27, which tells us that it is by the washing of water through the Word (water baptism with the Holy Spirit taking action)
Gal 3:26-27, which tells us that we are clothed with Christ and adopted as God's children in baptism
Acts 3:19, which tells us that repentance results in (meaning it must come before) salvation being received.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Dwight, that is not a true and faithful reading of Acts 26. God gave the commission to Ananias to give to Saul. God did not give it there on the Road. It was not given to Saul until three days after he was on the Road, when Ananias came to him. You must use the timeline given in Acts 8 and Acts 22 to qualify the condensed version of events given in Acts 26.
dwight92070
Well-known member
When exactly Paul was saved is not told us. What Ananias told Paul to do did not save Paul, at least not the baptism. Certainly “calling on the name of the Lord” did. Baptism was the step of faith in the Kingdom gospel, but when Paul wrote Romans 10 he said:
”But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. ”
It was on the road to Damascus that Paul acknowledged Jesus as Lord and that God raised him from the dead – Acts 9:5,6 “And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutes; it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?”
When Paul learned the Gospel of Grace, I think he knew that he was saved on the road to Damascus. That is when God showed him grace and when he believed on the risen Lord Jesus Christ. It is interesting that when Paul went to Jerusalem to tell them that gospel he preached among the Gentiles, it was Peter who came to understand their salvation saying: “But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they” (Acts 15:11).
Grace Bible Church - Warren, MI
Discover the unsearchable riches of Christ! We encourage you to read, believe, and obey what God has to say to you in the Bible. Then begin to attend a good Bible Church where God’s Word is believed and taught. Grace Bible Church is just such a place. %
Fool4Christ said: "It was on the road to Damascus that Paul acknowledged Jesus as Lord and that God raised him from the dead."
I think you meant he was raised from the dead SPIRITUALLY, not physically, right?
I agree with you. If you or I had that same miraculous thing happen to us, of course we would have been saved on the spot! For anyone to deny that is not being honest. A person would have to be pretty hard-hearted and plain evil to reject such a miraculous appearance of Jesus Himself. And Saul, even though he was sinning against God, at least THOUGHT he was doing the right thing. He told us later that he was doing what he did (before Christ appeared to him) IGNORANTLY.
However, there's no need to interject a man-made religious doctrine into this story - i.e. dispensationalism. We all know "Gospel of Grace" is code for that false doctrine. There's only one gospel and Paul and Jesus both preached the same gospel. In Acts 20:24, Paul calls it the gospel of the grace of God, but in the very next verse, he calls it (the gospel of) the kingdom of God. The terms are interchangeable and there are also other names used elsewhere for that same gospel: the gospel of the kingdom, the gospel of Jesus Christ, the gospel of God, the gospel of His Son, the gospel of Christ, the gospel of our Lord Jesus, the gospel of the blessed God, and the word gospel is also used by itself numerous times.
Behold
Well-known member
The baptism you are referring to, happened before Jesus died on the Cross.
So, your "baptism" is the baptism of John the Baptist....which cant be the NT idea of water baptism.
Also, what i showed you, is that the Apostles, 11 of them Received the Holy Spirit, and no water baptism is found in the verse.
And no "gift of Tongues" is being spoken AFTER they received the Holy Spirit.
And those in the UPPER Room, during Pentecost, who received a Gift of the Spirit, were not water baptized.
Peter was not water baptized during that Pentecost.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Doug Brents said: "But one who simply has a thought in their head that the Gospel is true is not saved."
You would have to be God Himself to know that - and you are not God. So you cannot make authoritative statements like that, especially when there is NO scripture that says that. A person who believes something in his head also believes it in his heart. In fact, please explain how you can separate what's in a person's head from what's in their heart. I don't think the heart can "hide" anything from the head, nor can the head "hide" anything from the heart.
"For who among men know the thoughts of a man except the spirit (or heart) of the man which is in him?" 1 Cor. 2:11
Did you know that we can reason in our hearts? Jesus asked, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts?" Luke 5:22
So Doug Brents go-to phrase "intellectual assent" is just what TomL said - a straw man.
If you believe something in your head, you also believe it in your heart - and vice-versa. You cannot separate the two, even though Doug pretends that you can, so he can make his false "point", that you can believe the gospel in your head, without believing it with your heart - that's not possible.
You would have to be God Himself to know that - and you are not God. So you cannot make authoritative statements like that, especially when there is NO scripture that says that. A person who believes something in his head also believes it in his heart. In fact, please explain how you can separate what's in a person's head from what's in their heart. I don't think the heart can "hide" anything from the head, nor can the head "hide" anything from the heart.
"For who among men know the thoughts of a man except the spirit (or heart) of the man which is in him?" 1 Cor. 2:11
Did you know that we can reason in our hearts? Jesus asked, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts?" Luke 5:22
So Doug Brents go-to phrase "intellectual assent" is just what TomL said - a straw man.
If you believe something in your head, you also believe it in your heart - and vice-versa. You cannot separate the two, even though Doug pretends that you can, so he can make his false "point", that you can believe the gospel in your head, without believing it with your heart - that's not possible.
dwight92070
Well-known member
That's not true at all. You are ignoring John 4:1-2. We know that some of the 12 were disciples of John the Baptist before they were disciples of Jesus. So they were baptized by John the Baptist. One of those was Andrew. John 1:35-40 But when they switched from following John to following Jesus, John 4:1-2, they were baptized again in His name - obviously this was before the cross and obviously also, that did not matter because their baptism into Jesus was looking forward to His death, burial, and resurrection (all of which Jesus told them would happen several times), whereas all baptisms after the cross, are looking back to His death, burial and resurrection.
John 4:1-2 tells us that "Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were)." So when Jesus' disciples were baptizing in His name, this was NOT the Baptism of John, which had to do with repentance only. The baptism in Jesus' name also included repentance, because Jesus preached repentance, but it also included faith in Jesus Himself and a commitment to Him. That's why Paul baptized the disciples he found in Acts 19, even though they has already received John's baptism.
Yes, when the 11 received the indwelling Holy Spirit in John 20:22, they didn't need to be baptized, because they had already been baptized into Jesus at the beginning of Jesus' ministry, which could have been as much as 3 1/2 years earlier. Prior to John 20:22, they HAD the Holy Spirit with them, but not in them. John 14:17
Then, on the Day of Pentecost, they received the baptism in or with the Holy Spirit - a totally different experience than salvation. Acts 1:5 So they had the Holy Spirit 1. With them and later 2. In them and later on Pentecost 3. they were baptized with the Holy Spirit.
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