Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation

So how do you rightly divide Acts 20:24-25? In 24, Paul speaks of the gospel of the grace of God and in 25, he speaks of the gospel of the kingdom of God? Isn't it obvious that Paul is speaking of the same gospel?

Also, could you please explain what you think Paul means by "rightly dividing the word of truth"? This seems to be the dispensationalists favorite verse, but I've never heard them explain what they think it means. My version, NASB, says "accurately handling the word of truth".
 
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Jim said:
No, of course not. But God does.

Who said it did? There is no power in water. But there is power in God to wash away your sin when you get water baptized. Do not reject God's word and His promises.
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Tell me, brother-so many words have been typed on this forum about water baptism, and yet, there’s still no consensus on whether it’s imperative or not.

What is Imperative is IF we are in Christ Jesus or not. Sealed with the Spirit or not-obeying His commandments.

Please, not here to argue.

J.
 
Johann said:
Tell me, brother-so many words have been typed on this forum about water baptism, and yet, there’s still no consensus on whether it’s imperative or not.
Click to expand...
I believe there is consensus in God's word. Whether or not there is consensus anywhere else is not important.
 
Jim said:
I believe there is consensus in God's word. Whether or not there is consensus anywhere else is not important.
Click to expand...
Paul’s writings on baptism focus primarily on the spiritual realities and implications associated with a believer’s union with Christ rather than prescribing baptism as a ritual obligation. He addresses baptism as an identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection—a foundational expression of the gospel’s transformative power. While Paul doesn’t emphasize water baptism as a requirement for salvation, he acknowledges it as a significant symbolic act reflecting the inner change that occurs through faith in Christ.


1. Baptism as Identification with Christ’s Death and Resurrection (Romans 6:3-4)
were baptized. Here baptized into Christ Jesus and baptized into His death are the work of the Holy Spirit, not water. This baptism is that newness (kaintēti) of life that never existed under the Law, neither does it exist under the punishment of legal atonement (see note at Jas_5:20). This new life is in Christ on the ground of the shed blood, by regenerative change through faith. In this dispensation of grace, mankind is restored from the image of Adam in which he was born, to the image of God—righteousness, holiness, and true knowledge—by the baptismal power of the Holy Spirit (cf. Gen_1:26-27; Gen_2:16-17; Gen_5:3; Eph_4:24; Col_3:9-10).

So, this restoration is spiritual/moral and is accomplished by the Holy Spirit. Thus, Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness (Rom_10:4; cf. Heb_10:10-11). Accordingly, He is the end of all sin for those who are baptized into Him; for this is a baptism into His death, an induction into Jesus Christ, a walk in newness of life (LNT, fn j). Rom_6:4-5; Rom_6:8, Act_19:5; Act_22:16, *1Co_10:2; 1Co_15:29, Gal_2:20-21; Gal_3:27, Eph_4:5, +*Col_2:12 note. +*Heb_6:2.
into Jesus Christ. Mat_20:20-22; +Mat_28:19, Act_2:38, Gal_3:27.
into his death. Gal_2:20-21, Php_3:10, **Col_3:3, *1Pe_2:24.



In Romans 6:3-4, Paul explains that those “baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death.” This baptism signifies dying to sin and being “raised…to walk in newness of life,” symbolizing a believer’s complete identification with Christ’s death and resurrection. Here, Paul’s emphasis is on the transformative work that takes place at the spiritual level, reflecting an internal reality rather than a mere outward ritual.

2. Unity of Believers through the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13)
Paul speaks of a baptism that unites all believers into one body through the Holy Spirit: “For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.”

Here, he focuses on Spirit baptism as the means by which believers are joined to the body of Christ. This suggests that Paul sees baptism as something the Spirit accomplishes, drawing believers into a shared identity within the church.

3. Putting on Christ (Galatians 3:27)
In Galatians 3:27, Paul writes, “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” This passage connects baptism with “putting on” the new identity of Christ. Here again, Paul emphasizes a transformative aspect, where baptism signifies a change in identity—a movement from the old self to a new self found in Christ.

4. Christ’s Supremacy over Rituals (1 Corinthians 1:14-17)
In his letter to the Corinthians, Paul makes a notable statement: “I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius... For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel” (1 Corinthians 1:14-17).

This shows that Paul prioritized the preaching of the gospel over the act of water baptism itself, indicating that baptism, while significant, was not essential to salvation or the central mission of his ministry.

5. Spiritual Cleansing and Regeneration (Titus 3:5-6)
Paul describes salvation as a “washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” given through Jesus Christ (Titus 3:5-6). Although he doesn’t explicitly mention water baptism here, the language of “washing” often evokes the idea of spiritual cleansing, aligning with the notion of Spirit baptism as an inner renewal.


But hey, I was water baptized, and so many focus only on the Gospels, remaining almost completely unaware of the 13 Pauline epistles.

Then there’s the distinction between indicatives and imperatives—but more on that later.

J.
 
Johann said:
Paul’s writings on baptism focus primarily on the spiritual realities and implications associated with a believer’s union with Christ rather than prescribing baptism as a ritual obligation. He addresses baptism as an identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection—a foundational expression of the gospel’s transformative power. While Paul doesn’t emphasize water baptism as a requirement for salvation, he acknowledges it as a significant symbolic act reflecting the inner change that occurs through faith in Christ.
Click to expand...
I have asked you previously to show any passage where Paul ever says or even suggests that baptism is symbolic of having been saved. There is no such passage.

In fact, Paul's own description of his own salvation presents baptism as the washing away of his sins.

I will come back later and address some of the rest of that post.
 
Jim said:
I have asked you previously to show any passage where Paul ever says or even suggests that baptism is symbolic of having been saved. There is no such passage.

In fact, Paul's own description of his own salvation presents baptism as the washing away of his sins.

I will come back later and address some of the rest of that post.
Click to expand...
Paul is not addressing water baptism in his epistles.

Plain and simple.

J.
 
Johann said:
Paul is not addressing water baptism in his epistles.
Click to expand...
Of course he is. 1 Corinthians 1:14 is clearly a reference to water baptism as are all the rest of Paul's discussions on baptism. Baptism is almost always discussed in the mode of a command either to be baptized or to baptize another. Only in the case of water baptism, can such a command be obeyed. In verse 16, Paul's specific reference to his baptizing of the household of Stephanas can only be interpreted as baptizing in water.

Jesus' command in Matthew 28:19-20 can only be interpreted and understood in the context of water baptism.

I have to leave now. Later, perhaps.
 
Johann said:
Paul’s writings on baptism focus primarily on the spiritual realities and implications associated with a believer’s union with Christ rather than prescribing baptism as a ritual obligation. He addresses baptism as an identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection—a foundational expression of the gospel’s transformative power. While Paul doesn’t emphasize water baptism as a requirement for salvation, he acknowledges it as a significant symbolic act reflecting the inner change that occurs through faith in Christ.


1. Baptism as Identification with Christ’s Death and Resurrection (Romans 6:3-4)
were baptized. Here baptized into Christ Jesus and baptized into His death are the work of the Holy Spirit, not water. This baptism is that newness (kaintēti) of life that never existed under the Law, neither does it exist under the punishment of legal atonement (see note at Jas_5:20). This new life is in Christ on the ground of the shed blood, by regenerative change through faith. In this dispensation of grace, mankind is restored from the image of Adam in which he was born, to the image of God—righteousness, holiness, and true knowledge—by the baptismal power of the Holy Spirit (cf. Gen_1:26-27; Gen_2:16-17; Gen_5:3; Eph_4:24; Col_3:9-10).

So, this restoration is spiritual/moral and is accomplished by the Holy Spirit. Thus, Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness (Rom_10:4; cf. Heb_10:10-11). Accordingly, He is the end of all sin for those who are baptized into Him; for this is a baptism into His death, an induction into Jesus Christ, a walk in newness of life (LNT, fn j). Rom_6:4-5; Rom_6:8, Act_19:5; Act_22:16, *1Co_10:2; 1Co_15:29, Gal_2:20-21; Gal_3:27, Eph_4:5, +*Col_2:12 note. +*Heb_6:2.
into Jesus Christ. Mat_20:20-22; +Mat_28:19, Act_2:38, Gal_3:27.
into his death. Gal_2:20-21, Php_3:10, **Col_3:3, *1Pe_2:24.



In Romans 6:3-4, Paul explains that those “baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death.” This baptism signifies dying to sin and being “raised…to walk in newness of life,” symbolizing a believer’s complete identification with Christ’s death and resurrection. Here, Paul’s emphasis is on the transformative work that takes place at the spiritual level, reflecting an internal reality rather than a mere outward ritual.

2. Unity of Believers through the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13)
Paul speaks of a baptism that unites all believers into one body through the Holy Spirit: “For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.”

Here, he focuses on Spirit baptism as the means by which believers are joined to the body of Christ. This suggests that Paul sees baptism as something the Spirit accomplishes, drawing believers into a shared identity within the church.

3. Putting on Christ (Galatians 3:27)
In Galatians 3:27, Paul writes, “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” This passage connects baptism with “putting on” the new identity of Christ. Here again, Paul emphasizes a transformative aspect, where baptism signifies a change in identity—a movement from the old self to a new self found in Christ.

4. Christ’s Supremacy over Rituals (1 Corinthians 1:14-17)
In his letter to the Corinthians, Paul makes a notable statement: “I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius... For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel” (1 Corinthians 1:14-17).

This shows that Paul prioritized the preaching of the gospel over the act of water baptism itself, indicating that baptism, while significant, was not essential to salvation or the central mission of his ministry.

5. Spiritual Cleansing and Regeneration (Titus 3:5-6)
Paul describes salvation as a “washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” given through Jesus Christ (Titus 3:5-6). Although he doesn’t explicitly mention water baptism here, the language of “washing” often evokes the idea of spiritual cleansing, aligning with the notion of Spirit baptism as an inner renewal.


But hey, I was water baptized, and so many focus only on the Gospels, remaining almost completely unaware of the 13 Pauline epistles.

Then there’s the distinction between indicatives and imperatives—but more on that later.

J.
Click to expand...
How is the following verse incorporated and compatible with what you wrote:

(John 3:5) Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 
synergy said:
How is the following verse incorporated and compatible with what you wrote:

(John 3:5) Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Click to expand...
Of water and the Spirit (ex hudatos kai pneumatos). Nicodemus had failed utterly to grasp the idea of the spiritual birth as essential to entrance into the Kingdom of God. He knew only Jews as members of that kingdom, the political kingdom of Pharisaic hope which was to make all the world Jewish (Pharisaic) under the King Messiah. Why does Jesus add ex hudatos here? In Joh_3:3 we have “anōthen” (from above) which is repeated in Joh_3:7, while in Joh_3:8 we have only ek tou pneumatos (of the Spirit) in the best manuscripts.

Many theories exist.

One view makes baptism, referred to by ex hudatos (coming up out of water), essential to the birth of the Spirit, as the means of obtaining the new birth of the Spirit. If so, why is water mentioned only once in the three demands of Jesus (Joh_3:3, Joh_3:5, Joh_3:7)?

Calvin makes water and Spirit refer to the one act (the cleansing work of the Spirit). Some insist on the language in Joh_3:6 as meaning the birth of the flesh coming in a sac of water in contrast to the birth of the Spirit.

One wonders after all what was the precise purpose of Jesus with Nicodemus, the Pharisaic ceremonialist, who had failed to grasp the idea of spiritual birth which is a commonplace to us.

By using water (the symbol before the thing signified) first and adding Spirit, he may have hoped to turn the mind of Nicodemus away from mere physical birth and, by pointing to the baptism of John on confession of sin which the Pharisees had rejected, to turn his attention to the birth from above by the Spirit.

That is to say the mention of “water” here may have been for the purpose of helping Nicodemus without laying down a fundamental principle of salvation as being by means of baptism.

Bernard holds that the words hudatos kai (water and) do not belong to the words of Jesus, but “are a gloss, added to bring the saying of Jesus into harmony with the belief and practice of a later generation.” Here Jesus uses eiselthein (enter) instead of idein (see) of Joh_3:3, but with the same essential idea (participation in the kingdom).
Robertson

and. FS93A, +Gen_1:26, Hendiadys; or, Two for One F/S 657, Two words are used (water, Spirit), but one thing is meant (Spirit). By this figure water and spirit are joined by "and." There is no of in the Greek, supplied here by the translators. There is no article to either of the two nouns. This figure gives the meaning, "born of water, even the spirit."

That only one thing is meant by the two words is clear from verses 6 and 8 (Joh_3:6; Joh_3:8), where only the Spirit (the one thing) is mentioned. The figure may also be understood to mean "born of spiritual water," where the "spiritual water" is, by the figure Metonymy, put for the Holy Spirit Himself, as is clear from Joh_7:38-39, The reference is to the real baptism by the Holy Spirit which is the one indispensable condition of entering the kingdom of God (Rom_8:9, 1Co_12:13), not to the water of ritual baptism (Act_1:5 note).

Cheers.

J.
 
synergy said:
How is the following verse incorporated and compatible with what you wrote:

(John 3:5) Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Click to expand...
Struggling to read?

Of water and the Spirit (ex hudatos kai pneumatos). Nicodemus had failed utterly to grasp the idea of the spiritual birth as essential to entrance into the Kingdom of God. He knew only Jews as members of that kingdom, the political kingdom of Pharisaic hope which was to make all the world Jewish (Pharisaic) under the King Messiah. Why does Jesus add ex hudatos here? In Joh_3:3 we have “anōthen” (from above) which is repeated in Joh_3:7, while in Joh_3:8 we have only ek tou pneumatos (of the Spirit) in the best manuscripts.

Many theories exist.

One view makes baptism, referred to by ex hudatos (coming up out of water), essential to the birth of the Spirit, as the means of obtaining the new birth of the Spirit. If so, why is water mentioned only once in the three demands of Jesus (Joh_3:3, Joh_3:5, Joh_3:7)?

Calvin makes water and Spirit refer to the one act (the cleansing work of the Spirit). Some insist on the language in Joh_3:6 as meaning the birth of the flesh coming in a sac of water in contrast to the birth of the Spirit.

One wonders after all what was the precise purpose of Jesus with Nicodemus, the Pharisaic ceremonialist, who had failed to grasp the idea of spiritual birth which is a commonplace to us.

By using water (the symbol before the thing signified) first and adding Spirit, he may have hoped to turn the mind of Nicodemus away from mere physical birth and, by pointing to the baptism of John on confession of sin which the Pharisees had rejected, to turn his attention to the birth from above by the Spirit.

That is to say the mention of “water” here may have been for the purpose of helping Nicodemus without laying down a fundamental principle of salvation as being by means of baptism.

Bernard holds that the words hudatos kai (water and) do not belong to the words of Jesus, but “are a gloss, added to bring the saying of Jesus into harmony with the belief and practice of a later generation.” Here Jesus uses eiselthein (enter) instead of idein (see) of Joh_3:3, but with the same essential idea (participation in the kingdom).
Robertson

and. FS93A, +Gen_1:26, Hendiadys; or, Two for One F/S 657, Two words are used (water, Spirit), but one thing is meant (Spirit). By this figure water and spirit are joined by "and." There is no of in the Greek, supplied here by the translators. There is no article to either of the two nouns. This figure gives the meaning, "born of water, even the spirit."

That only one thing is meant by the two words is clear from verses 6 and 8 (Joh_3:6; Joh_3:8), where only the Spirit (the one thing) is mentioned. The figure may also be understood to mean "born of spiritual water," where the "spiritual water" is, by the figure Metonymy, put for the Holy Spirit Himself, as is clear from Joh_7:38-39, The reference is to the real baptism by the Holy Spirit which is the one indispensable condition of entering the kingdom of God (Rom_8:9, 1Co_12:13), not to the water of ritual baptism (Act_1:5 note).

There were two things necessary for Nicodemus to be born
again. First, he had to “born of
the water.” Since under the kingdom gospel water baptism was an
expression of faith, it is clear the
Lord isn’t speaking of a water ceremony. In this context the “water”
is a reference to the Word of God
(See John 15:3; Eph. 5:26). No
sinner is imparted spiritual life
apart from the Scriptures. Every
time regeneration is spoken of in
the prophetic Scriptures it is in relation to the Word of truth (I Pet.
1:23 cf. James 1:18). Of course,
Nicodemus was ministered to by
the Word Himself. Second, it is
the Spirit who convicts the sinner of his sins and regenerates
him (John 16:8,9 cf. Titus 3:5).
When the Word of the Lord, in
conjunction with the conviction
of the Spirit, pierced through the
darkness of Nicodemus’ heart he
responded in faith and was wonderfully saved!
Cheers.

J.
 
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Johann said:
Struggling to read?

Of water and the Spirit (ex hudatos kai pneumatos). Nicodemus had failed utterly to grasp the idea of the spiritual birth as essential to entrance into the Kingdom of God. He knew only Jews as members of that kingdom, the political kingdom of Pharisaic hope which was to make all the world Jewish (Pharisaic) under the King Messiah. Why does Jesus add ex hudatos here? In Joh_3:3 we have “anōthen” (from above) which is repeated in Joh_3:7, while in Joh_3:8 we have only ek tou pneumatos (of the Spirit) in the best manuscripts.

Many theories exist.

One view makes baptism, referred to by ex hudatos (coming up out of water), essential to the birth of the Spirit, as the means of obtaining the new birth of the Spirit. If so, why is water mentioned only once in the three demands of Jesus (Joh_3:3, Joh_3:5, Joh_3:7)?

Calvin makes water and Spirit refer to the one act (the cleansing work of the Spirit). Some insist on the language in Joh_3:6 as meaning the birth of the flesh coming in a sac of water in contrast to the birth of the Spirit.

One wonders after all what was the precise purpose of Jesus with Nicodemus, the Pharisaic ceremonialist, who had failed to grasp the idea of spiritual birth which is a commonplace to us.

By using water (the symbol before the thing signified) first and adding Spirit, he may have hoped to turn the mind of Nicodemus away from mere physical birth and, by pointing to the baptism of John on confession of sin which the Pharisees had rejected, to turn his attention to the birth from above by the Spirit.

That is to say the mention of “water” here may have been for the purpose of helping Nicodemus without laying down a fundamental principle of salvation as being by means of baptism.

Bernard holds that the words hudatos kai (water and) do not belong to the words of Jesus, but “are a gloss, added to bring the saying of Jesus into harmony with the belief and practice of a later generation.” Here Jesus uses eiselthein (enter) instead of idein (see) of Joh_3:3, but with the same essential idea (participation in the kingdom).
Robertson

and. FS93A, +Gen_1:26, Hendiadys; or, Two for One F/S 657, Two words are used (water, Spirit), but one thing is meant (Spirit). By this figure water and spirit are joined by "and." There is no of in the Greek, supplied here by the translators. There is no article to either of the two nouns. This figure gives the meaning, "born of water, even the spirit."

That only one thing is meant by the two words is clear from verses 6 and 8 (Joh_3:6; Joh_3:8), where only the Spirit (the one thing) is mentioned. The figure may also be understood to mean "born of spiritual water," where the "spiritual water" is, by the figure Metonymy, put for the Holy Spirit Himself, as is clear from Joh_7:38-39, The reference is to the real baptism by the Holy Spirit which is the one indispensable condition of entering the kingdom of God (Rom_8:9, 1Co_12:13), not to the water of ritual baptism (Act_1:5 note).

Cheers.

J.
Click to expand...
Talk about struggling, you're bringing in theories from people off the street like "Bernard" and struggling to make heads or tails of everything you gathered.

For myself, water is water. One has to be born of Spirit and water and that is a perfect introduction to the rest of the Chapter where John the Baptist conducts his Baptism Ministry.
 
synergy said:
Talk about struggling, you're bringing in theories from people off the street like "Bernard" and struggling to make heads or tails of everything you gathered.

For myself, water is water. One has to be born of Spirit and water and that is a perfect introduction to the rest of the Chapter where John the Baptist conducts his Baptism Ministry.
Click to expand...
The reason I have lost interest in any debate here, circular reasoning and snide remarks.

J.
 
TomL said:
It means to believe who is, what he has accomplished, depending on this, and to obey him
Click to expand...
So faith, which is trust, in Jesus means that we must believe who He is, what He accomplished, and depend on Him, and to Obey Him.
They why do you advocate so hard for us to disobey Him.
 
TomL said:
Sorry but that is your confused take not my position
Click to expand...
Your position (as I understand it) is that we don't have to obey Jesus' command to be baptized in order to receive salvation. That is not trust. That is not faith. As you said, obedience is a required part of faith (Heb 5:9). Just "believing" is not faith, it is not trust, it is not being faithful to God, and it does not fulfill all of what Scripture says is necessary to receive salvation. .
 

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