Doug Brents
Well-known member
I said there was no difference, and you stated "Faith." It appeared that you were stating that faith was a difference.
Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation
- Thread starter dwight92070
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Doug Brents
Well-known member
Well, that is true, and obvious.
So, what is faith?
Trust in who Christ is and what he has done.
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
One Spirit baptism
The baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs in water baptism. One is baptized with the Holy Spirit upon receiving the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Johann
Well-known member
All students of the Word of God agree that the baptism of I Corinthians 12:13 is not water baptism.
I Corinthians 12:13:
“FOR BY ONE SPIRIT ARE WE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, WHETHER WE BE JEWS OR GENTILES, WHETHER WE BE BOND OR FREE; AND HAVE BEEN ALL MADE TO DRINK INTO ONE SPIRIT.”
Barnes.
Baptized into one body - Many suppose that there is reference here to the ordinance of baptism by water. But the connection seems rather to require us to understand it of the baptism of the Holy Spirit Mat_3:11; and if so, it means, that by the agency of the Holy Spirit, they had all been suited, each to his appropriate place, to constitute the body of Christ - the church. If, however, it refers to the ordinance of baptism, as Bloomfield, Calvin, Doddridge, etc. suppose, then it means, that by the very profession of religion as made at baptism, by there being but one baptism Eph_4:5, they had all professedly become members of one and the same body. The former interpretation, however, seems to me best to suit the connection.
“Baptized in One Spirit into One Body.” In Ephesians 4:4 to 6 there is mention of one Body, one Spirit, one Baptism. Jews and Greeks were not baptized in one Spirit into one Body at the time John Baptist was baptizing with water that Christ might be made manifest to Israel; at the time the Twelve were baptized with water. It is one thing for Israel to have water baptism to have their Messiah manifested to them: it is quite a different thing for Israelites and Gentiles to be united in One Body by Holy Spirit baptism. John’s water baptism was in connection with Christ’s proclamation of the kingdom to Israel. Therefore there is Scriptural authority for “kingdom baptism”. But “Christian baptism” is an indefinite, uncertain expression; an expression from the pen of theologians but not found in the Bible: Some differentiate between kingdom water baptism while Christ was on earth, and what they call Christian water baptism after the Spirit came from heaven. But they cannot Scripturally prove the two different water baptisms by the experience of Twelve. According to this discrimination the Twelve never received Christian baptism; only Israelitish kingdom baptism.
If John’s baptism was New Covenant baptism, and if there is anything to the law of first occurrence, what meaning had water baptism until the last occurrence of water baptism in Acts 19:2 to 7? We should not prove the meaning by the exception to the order set forth in Acts 10:34 to 48, the experience of Cornelius and his house; remembering that Cornelius was the first Gentile to come in with the Jews who required a sign.
There is no Scriptural authority for the two-fold designation of water baptism. “kingdom baptism”, and “Christian baptism”. This is theory and tradition.
Neither has a Christian Scriptural authority for changing the order of Mark 16:16, “he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”, to “he that believeth and is saved shall be baptized”. If we are to hold on to water on the authority of that Scripture, let us observe the order. If we do, how can we reconcile that gospel with the gospel of Romans 3:24 and Ephesians 2:8 and 9? Water baptism has no place in the message of pure grace as it had in Mark 16:16. Christ sent Paul not to baptize. I Corinthians 1:17.
This leads us to this important declaration. No Scripture instructs one member of the Body of Ephesians to baptize with water another believer who is already a member of that Body. The one baptism of Ephesians 4:5, like the one baptism of Romans 6:3, produces a spiritual change in the sinner. By that one baptism the believing sinner is identified with Christ in death, burial and resurrection. As the result of that one baptism, the believer is seated in the heavenlies in Christ and blessed with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies. Forever is he a member of the Body of Christ. Water baptism today produces no spiritual change in any sinner or saint: Water baptism neither helps to save any sinner nor helps to keep him saved. All such messengers admit that water baptism has absolutely no efficacy to aid toward, or add to, the believer’s completeness in Christ or membership in His Body. Colossians 2:10. Water baptism is not required by God for membership in the true Church, which is the Body of Christ. Water baptism is not required for salvation or regeneration. Water baptism is not demanded as a condition for receiving the Holy Spirit. Then water baptism, according to Ephesians, and according to the admissions of present-day grace preachers, does not have the meaning that it had in Acts 2:38 and Acts 19:3 to 7 or in Acts 8:12 to 17.
What is its meaning? Can you give a Scriptural answer and not a human theory?, What men have been teaching and preaching will never satisfy the searching mind of the true Berean. Do not follow established creeds or the tradition of the elders. Church habits and Bible truth may differ. After you have prayed earnestly and searched the Scriptures, diligently and have been thereby convinced as to which of the more than one dozen interpretations, modes and signification’s practiced by orthodox Christians is demanded for members of the Body of Christ, obey the demand and then look for the man who is Scripturally qualified to baptize.
But remember; study diligently the Word of God before you answer to God, “to be or not to be baptized”. When you ask men, however spiritual they may be, as a rule they cannot give you any definite Scripture to prove that water baptism is compatible with the gospel of the grace of God. If they quote the so-called Great Commission of Matthew 28:19 and 20 and Mark 16:14 to 18, they must admit that the instructions there were given to apostles, who were not yet in the Body of Christ, apostles who will be on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28). These apostles were ministers to the circumcision with the gospel of the circumcision. Galatians 2:7 to 9. They were commissioned before the Body began historically. They were baptized many months before the Body began historically. Then the Twelve were not baptized with water as members of the church of Ephesians 1:19 to 22. The apostle to the Gentiles plainly declared, “Christ sent me not to baptize”. I Corinthians 1:17. As members of the Body of Christ from which Scriptures are we to get our instructions concerning water baptism and the gospel of the grace of God? There is not a single word instructing members of Christ’s Body to be baptized.
The great majority of Christians are practicing what their human leaders have taught them; what church creeds demand of them, and seem to think that they are in the will of God because they comply with a denominational demand instead of obeying the Scriptures rightly divided.
If a man or a group of men demand a religious ceremony as a door of entrance into any of their churches and the Lord does not demand that ceremony to become a member of His Church, what is your duty? Something may happen to your church membership here below if you obey the Head of the church in the heavenlies.
Be a Berean. Ask for chapter and verse. Do not do something because it has long been a religious habit.
To Be Or Not To Be Baptized
A SIMPLE MESSAGE ON BAPTISM Judging from the present-day controversy about water baptism it would seem that it is not possible to write a simple message on the subject. Most assuredly it requires more than a superficial study of the Scriptures to produce a strong conviction in the matter, based upo
bereanbiblesociety.org
J.
Johann
Well-known member
Baptism with the Holy Spirit and Water Baptism:
In the New Testament, the baptism with the Holy Spirit (also referred to as the baptism in the Holy Spirit) is distinct from water baptism. While water baptism is an outward sign of an inward transformation, the baptism with the Holy Spirit is a spiritual experience that empowers believers for ministry and service.
J.
Could you please show me where in the Bible it says or even suggests that water baptism is an outward sign of anything. The baptism with the Holy Spirit is the indwelling Holy Spirit received by the repentant believer upon being water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Is baptism with the Holy Spirit distinct from water baptism? Yes, however, it occurs in water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.
Johann
Well-known member
This thread on water baptism is going around in circles, with a back-and-forth of yes, no, yes, no...
Baptism as Essential for Salvation
The early Church Fathers viewed baptism as essential for salvation, following the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. They emphasized that baptism was not merely a symbolic act but a necessary sacrament for receiving the grace of God and entering the Kingdom of God.
St. Ignatius of Antioch (ca. 35–107 AD):
Ignatius, in his letters, acknowledges baptism as an essential part of the Christian initiation. In his Letter to the Ephesians, he writes about baptism in connection with the new life in Christ, stating:
“Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist which is administered either by the bishop or by one to whom he has entrusted it” (Eph. 5). Though this is about the Eucharist, it highlights the importance of sacraments like baptism administered by the Church for unity and legitimacy.
St. Justin Martyr (ca. 100–165 AD):
In his First Apology (chapter 61), Justin Martyr states that baptism is necessary for salvation. He describes the baptismal ceremony in detail, linking it to the cleansing of sins:
“As many are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated...for at that time, they receive the washing with water in the name of God the Father and Lord of the Universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit.”
Tertullian (ca. 155–240 AD):
Tertullian wrote extensively about baptism and its necessity. In On Baptism (chapters 1–2), he declares:
“The reason we are baptized is because of the forgiveness of sins... The water itself is not the cleansing agent, but it signifies the cleansing power of Christ’s death and resurrection.”
Tertullian stresses the importance of baptism in the remission of sins, asserting that without it, a person cannot be saved.
2. Baptism as a Symbol of Death and Resurrection
The Fathers viewed baptism as a symbolic act that signifies the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which the believer participates in through the sacrament.
St. Irenaeus (ca. 130–202 AD):
Irenaeus, in Against Heresies (Book 3, Chapter 17), explains that baptism symbolizes the believer's death to sin and rebirth into new life:
“For this reason the apostle also declares that we are buried with Christ by baptism, for as we are partakers of his death, we are also partakers of his resurrection.”
Irenaeus links baptism to the spiritual transformation that occurs in the believer, as they share in Christ’s death and resurrection.
Origen (ca. 185–254 AD):
Origen also connects baptism to the death and resurrection of Christ. In his Commentary on Romans (Book 5, Chapter 6), he explains:
“Baptism is the sacrament of the passion of Christ, and in it we are made partakers of the death of Christ, so that we may also partake of His resurrection.”
3. Baptism as a Means of Grace
Baptism was seen by the Fathers as a means of grace, a means by which a person is cleansed from sin and becomes a member of the Church.
St. Cyprian of Carthage (ca. 200–258 AD):
In his treatise On the Unity of the Church (Chapter 6), Cyprian affirms the necessity of baptism for salvation and the grace it imparts:
“No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother...the Church alone is the means by which salvation is bestowed. The water is the instrument by which the soul is sanctified and united to God, and through baptism, the soul receives the remission of sins.”
St. Augustine of Hippo (354–430 AD):
Augustine firmly affirmed the necessity of baptism for salvation. In his Sermons (Sermon 294, Chapter 2), he explains:
“Baptism is necessary for salvation. It is the sacrament of faith, through which the believer is cleansed from sin and reconciled with God.”
Augustine understood baptism as essential for the remission of original sin, and he taught that baptism cleanses the soul and incorporates the believer into the body of Christ.
4. Baptism as a Covenant Initiation
Early Church Fathers saw baptism as the entrance into the new covenant, linking it to the covenantal practices of the Old Testament, such as circumcision, and marking the believer's initiation into the Christian faith.
St. Clement of Alexandria (ca. 150–215 AD):
Clement compares baptism to circumcision, emphasizing that baptism in Christ is the true initiation into the covenant of God:
“Baptism is the seal of the Christian’s spiritual regeneration, the means by which we are born again into the Kingdom of God” (The Instructor, Book 1).
This highlights the new covenant established through Jesus and the role baptism plays in bringing believers into the covenant.
5. Infant Baptism
Though the practice of infant baptism is debated among modern Christian denominations, the early Church Fathers provide evidence that it was practiced in the early centuries of Christianity.
St. Irenaeus:
In Against Heresies (Book 2, Chapter 22), Irenaeus makes a brief mention of the practice of baptizing infants, indicating that this was a recognized practice in the second century:
“For He came to save all through means of Himself—all, I say, who through Him are born again to God—infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men.”
Origen:
In his Commentary on Romans (Book 5, Chapter 9), Origen defends the practice of baptizing infants, affirming that they too need the cleansing power of baptism for the remission of original sin.
So you guys can continue with the back and forth-just leave me out of this @Jim.
J.
I can appreciate the interest in the history of the "church fathers" that you have cited. However, there is not a one of them that replaces in any sense the scriptures. The fact that Origen in his Commentary on Romans got it wrong doesn't really bother me. I feel no obligation to try to either defend or rebut him. But if you present his thinking as an argument for your view, then I do somewhat feel an obligation to deal with your view.
And I must say that the OP, "Acts 22:16, Paul's salvation", cannot even be addressed absent the discussion on baptism.
Behold
Well-known member
Actually, the false Catholic position on Salvation (*born again BY WATER") should always be absent when discussing Salvation.
Consider also, that Paul teaches... "Christ sent me not to water baptize".........
So, if the "culf of mary" Water Baptism obsession is true, then Paul just said.... "i never lead anyone to Christ because Christ sent me not to water baptize"..
Yet, many of Paul's Epistles show us that Paul lead many to Christ, as some of these are listed a "Corinthians", "Galatians".. Ephesians".. "Philippians, Thessalonians"..
So, Paul was "not sent to water Baptize" because Water Baptism plays no role in dealing with sin, or regarding God birthing a spirit as a Born Again CHRISTian.
You need to read and study 1 Corinthians 1 in more depth to understand why Paul made the statement that he did. And it had nothing to do with whether or not baptism is associated with salvation. And, of course, it definitely is. It is the occasion, the time in the life of the repentant believer, when God forgives sins of that believer and gives him the gift of the Holy Spirit.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Jesus, all His disciples, Paul and all new testament authors preached the same gospel. C. I. Scofield and dispensationalists want us to believe that Jesus preached THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD to the Jews ONLY. Then after Jesus returned to heaven, His disciples, Paul and the other New Testament authors preached a DIFFERENT gospel to the church and the Gentiles - THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD.
This is patently false. They ALL preached the same gospel. There is only one gospel. In fact it only takes one passage to prove this, but the dispensationalists reject the truth of what Paul is saying here:
Acts 20:24-25 "But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD. And now , behold, I know that ye all, AMONG WHOM I HAVE GONE PREACHING THE KINGDOM OF GOD, shall see my face no more.
Paul uses "the gospel of the grace of God" and (the gospel of) "the kingdom of God" INTERCHANGEABLY. Why? Because they are the SAME GOSPEL.
Don't let dispensationalists deceive you - and of course, this is just ONE of their MULTITUDE of misinterpretations and deceptions.
In fact, let me warn you of another one of their deceptions: Because they believe that Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom of God ONLY TO THE JEWS and NOT to Gentiles and/or the church - they say that NOTHING of what Jesus said is for the church today! According to them, the Sermon on the Mount, the parables, all the teachings of Jesus are NOT for the church today! The ONLY teaching that we the church are to obey today is what Paul teaches, the gospel of the grace of God - as IF that was a different gospel, which it is not.
Is that unbelievable or what? We should NOT obey Jesus - ONLY Paul??!!! Tell me, WHO is it that doesn't want us to OBEY Jesus?? You got it! SATAN! (and the dispensationalists!!)
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civic
Well-known member
not all dispensationalists are the same as I affirm there is only one gospel too.
just like not all calvinists believe the same, or protestants, arminians, baptists, etc......
dwight92070
Well-known member
not all dispensationalists are the same as I affirm there is only one gospel too.
just like not all calvinists believe the same, or protestants, arminians, baptists, etc......
Thank you for the reminder, but you do acknowledge that many dispensationalists teach that, right?
So what about the other topic? Do you believe that Christians today are obligated to obey Jesus' teachings in the four gospels?
civic
Well-known member
The entire new testament/ new covenant is for all believers. Don't you agree ?
There are certain things I personally believe that were specific to the Apostles not everyone.
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
op: Paul's salvation in Acts 22:16?
When?:
Actually, Biblically, According To God's Revelation Of The Mystery, it was in Acts Chapter 9:
( Positively And Negatively ) How and What?
1) By The Grace Of God:
Again, ( Negatively and Positively ) How, What, And Whom?
2) No "works of righteousness"
Who Authorized man [ saving SELF? ] to "Cancel out The Wonderful GRACE" of our Wonderful God?
Again, How?
3) By The Grace And Mercy Of God (see Seven Times Above)!
And again - What?:
4) Yes, By The Grace ( And Mercy ) Of God, Through faith (Alone!) see Seven Times above!!
Again, How? and By Whom? [ Not men with water! 1 Corinthians 12:13 AV ], But:
5) The ONE [ Spiritual ] Baptism "By The Holy Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13 AV) Identifying him as:
Why And Where?:
6) ALL Because Of The Merits of His "Finished WORK On The Cross Of Calvary!!!" (John 19:30 AV)
7) Precious friends, If God's Greatest News Of Amazing GRACE Is for you Today ( "The Day Of Salvation" ),
Yes Yes, Paul's salvation ( and ours! ) According To God's "Revelation Of The Mystery" to Paul!
-----------------------------------
Law believers try to add [ Forbidden By God ] To The Gospel Of The Grace of God, but:
Amen.
Precious friends, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD Jesus Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!
PS. Some of us 'heretical' dispensationalists are saddened by the criticism, name-calling, and accusations; however,
In Christ we still love and forgive those who do so (Ephesians 4:32 AV)!
And, Amen!
When?:
Actually, Biblically, According To God's Revelation Of The Mystery, it was in Acts Chapter 9:
( Positively And Negatively ) How and What?
1) By The Grace Of God:
"But God, Who Is Rich In Mercy, for His Great Love Wherewith He Loved us, Even when we were dead in sins,
hath quickened us together With Christ, ( By Grace ye Are Saved; )...The Exceeding Riches of His Grace ...For
By Grace Are ye Saved Through faith; and that not of yourselves: It Is The Gift Of God: Not of works, lest any
man should boast!" (Ephesians 2:5-9 AV)
Again, ( Negatively and Positively ) How, What, And Whom?
2) No "works of righteousness"
( boasting of law, water baptism, tithing, sabbath-keeping, etc, etc, etc... )
see Above "Not of" (cp Romans 3:27 AV)
+
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of Grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him That Justifieth the ungodly,
his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:4-5 AV)
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, But According To His Mercy He Saved
us, By The Washing Of Regeneration, And Renewing Of The Holy Ghost; Which He Shed On us
Abundantly Through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That Being Justified By His Grace, we should be
made heirs according to The Hope Of Eternal Life." (Titus 3:5-7 AV)
Sum:"And if By Grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise Grace is no more Grace. But if it
be of works, then is it no more Grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11:6 AV)
Who Authorized man [ saving SELF? ] to "Cancel out The Wonderful GRACE" of our Wonderful God?
Again, How?
3) By The Grace And Mercy Of God (see Seven Times Above)!
And again - What?:
4) Yes, By The Grace ( And Mercy ) Of God, Through faith (Alone!) see Seven Times above!!
+
Paul is the Only pattern for The Body Of Christ!:
"Howbeit for this cause I obtained Mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ
might shew forth All Longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should
hereafter believe on Him to Life Everlasting" (2 Timothy 1:16 AV)
Again, How? and By Whom? [ Not men with water! 1 Corinthians 12:13 AV ], But:
5) The ONE [ Spiritual ] Baptism "By The Holy Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13 AV) Identifying him as:
"the first member" ( # 4 ) of The ONE [ Spiritual Organism ] Body Of Christ!
Why And Where?:
6) ALL Because Of The Merits of His "Finished WORK On The Cross Of Calvary!!!" (John 19:30 AV)
{ which man is it who is authorized ↑ "to Add" to ↑ What Christ Declared "Is Finished!" ?}
7) Precious friends, If God's Greatest News Of Amazing GRACE Is for you Today ( "The Day Of Salvation" ),
then should you not Stop Right Now, bow your head in humility, And "Give Thanks To Him!"?
Yes Yes, Paul's salvation ( and ours! ) According To God's "Revelation Of The Mystery" to Paul!
-----------------------------------
Law believers try to add [ Forbidden By God ] To The Gospel Of The Grace of God, but:
Amen.
Precious friends, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD Jesus Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!
PS. Some of us 'heretical' dispensationalists are saddened by the criticism, name-calling, and accusations; however,
In Christ we still love and forgive those who do so (Ephesians 4:32 AV)!
And, Amen!
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