Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation

[Fred]

The ability to work signs, wonders and miracles was not limited to believers. In fact it was an ability given to Balaam's donkey (Num 22) .

Different covenant.

 

[TomL]

That is not what I am assuming at all.

Sure you are

That is all the donkey received and you have tried to pass it off as a baptism en the holy Ghost which the bible never mentions

Sorry, the baptism "en" the Holy Spirit (as you like to call it) occurs during water baptism, which is when one is placed into the body of Christ. Receiving the miraculous gift(s)/empowerment of the Holy Spirit does not require baptism en the Holy Spirit.

Are you claiming the donkey water baptised first then?

Hello

If water baptism is necessary for the baptism en the Spirit how was the donkey baptised en the Spirit

The fact the gentiles were baptised en the Spirit before water baptism

Acts 11:15–18 (UASV) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard these things, they became silent, and they glorified God, saying, “So, then, God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance that leads to life.”

In verse 45 above, the Holy Spirit descended on the Gentiles in miraculous power just as He did on the Apostles "in the beginning" (on Pentecost). But you are associating that with the indwelling (which it is not), that did not occur for the Gentiles until they were baptized in water which didn't happen until verse 48. The Gentiles were not saved, were still in sin, did not have the indwelling of the Spirit, and were not in the body of Christ until verse 48.

Um that is not how the bible reads

Acts 10:45–48 (UASV) — 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and magnifying God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

Where we have a clear statement they received the Spirit


Sorry I already showed you it was a witness the gentiles had believed, had repentance unto life and their heart purified by faith

No, the donkey has no sin to be washed away.

Does not answer the question if water baptism is necessary for the baptism en the Spirit how do you account for your false claim the donkey was baptised en the Spirit

Repentance unto (that leads to) life. Repentance does not bring about salvation in itself. It is just one of the required elements that leads to salvation.

Unto life argues differently but will you argue then that the donkey had repentance unto life and had witness of being a believer

Purifying their hearts by what? Faith!! Not by the gift of tongues, not by the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, but FAITH! And faith is not something that God does, but is OUR response to what He has done. Faith requires action on our part, it is not passive. Saving faith requires obedience to the things that God has said lead to/result in receiving salvation. And those things are repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Mark 16:16, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, John 3:5).

There you go again assuming only a gift of tongues

When scripture states they received the Spirit not just a gift of tongues

 

[mailmandan]

So the Lord opened the donkey's mouth, but the donkey did not receive the gift of speach from the Holy Spirit???? Either He did or did not make the donkey speak. You can't have it both ways. Clearly the gift of speach is not for "beleivers only". Ephesians 1:13 and 1 Corinthians 12 do not in any way state that the gift of tongues cannot be given to people outside of the Church. Eph 1:13 has nothing to do with the gift of tongues, and 1 Cor 12 only addresses the hierarchy of gifts within the Church, not what gifts are restricted only to the Church.

The donkey did not receive the spiritual gift of tongues which is only for the body of Christ in 1 Corinthians 12. Once again, the Lord simply opened the mouth of the donkey to speak in order to rebuke Balaam. Period. I can't believe that you are doubling down on your ludicrous argument! You even gave it the title, "the gift of speech." The donkey speaking had absolutely nothing to do with the spiritual gift of tongues for saved believers. Ephesians 1:13 has everything to do with believers receiving the Holy Spirit and lost unbelievers do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Why don't you show me in scripture where lost unbelievers have received the gift of the Holy Spirit and/or the spiritual gift of tongues. These gifts are restricted only to the Church, the body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

And there is no indication that any in the Old Testament who were said to have been filled with the Holy Spirit were saved. Being filled with the Holy Spirit to perform signs, wonders and miracles was never said to be a testimony to the salvation of the one being filled.

There is a difference between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. The New Testament teaches the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5) When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. The apostle Paul calls this permanent indwelling the “guarantee of our inheritance.” (Ephesians 1:14)

In contrast to this permanent indwelling in the New Testament, the indwelling in the Old Testament was selective and temporary. The Holy Spirit “came upon” such Old Testament people as Joshua (Numbers 27:18), David (1 Samuel 16:12-13) and Saul (1 Samuel 10:10). In the book of Judges, we see the Holy Spirit “coming upon” these various judges whom God raised up to deliver Israel from their oppressors. The Holy Spirit did not permanently indwell them/seal them, but instead, came upon these individuals for specific tasks. So, while in the New Testament the Holy Spirit only indwells believers and that indwelling is permanent, the Holy Spirit came upon certain individuals in the Old Testament for a specific task and not to permanently seal them in the body of Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 makes no statement whatsoever about the spiritual gift of tongues. And 1 Corinthians 12 deals with the special divinely installed gifts, not the unique gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit that every believer receives.

Ephesians 1:13 makes it clear that those who believe the gospel are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. How long are believers sealed? Verse 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Those who do not believe the gospel are excluded. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) 1 Corinthians 12 deals with spiritual gifts which are only for the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13) and not for lost unbelievers or animals.

 

[mailmandan]

There you go again assuming only a gift of tongues

When scripture states they received the Spirit not just a gift of tongues

Well, Doug needs to believe that it was only a gift of tongues in Acts 10:43-47 and not the gift of the Holy Spirit in order to uphold his false doctrine. Doug cannot accept the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism, so he is left with his eisegesis. In Acts 10:47, Peter clearly stated, “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” Not merely received the spiritual gift of tongues but received the Holy Spirit. To deny this crystal-clear truth is to be blatantly dishonest.

 

[TomL]

Well, Doug needs to believe that it was only a gift of tongues in Acts 10:43-47 and not the gift of the Holy Spirit in order to uphold his false doctrine. Doug cannot accept the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism, so he is left with his eisegesis. In Acts 10:47, Peter clearly stated, “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” Not merely received the spiritual gift of tongues but received the Holy Spirit. To deny this crystal-clear truth is to be blatantly dishonest.

Yes, It was the Holy Spirit they received. His position cannot survive a true reading of the text.

 

[Jim]

Not true at all. On the day of Pentecost, the 120 believers, (who had already been baptized in water as a disciple of Jesus, and already had the indwelling Holy Spirit, John 20:22,) were now baptized by Jesus in the Holy Spirit, Acts 1:5, also called filled with the Spirit in Acts 2:4. There was no need for the 120 to be baptized in water again, since they had already been baptized in the name of Jesus. Any new believers, however, on that day, were baptized in water. They received the new birth and the baptism in the Holy Spirit all at the same time, which also happened with Cornelius' family in Acts 10.

The gift of the Holy Spirit given to the repentant believer is not being filled with the Holy Spirit. The indwelling Holy Spirit and the empowering (filled with) Holy Spirit are two different and distinct works of the Holy Spirit. All (baptized) believers receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. Only a very select few received the filling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jim]

There is a difference between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. The New Testament teaches the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5) When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. The apostle Paul calls this permanent indwelling the “guarantee of our inheritance.” (Ephesians 1:14)

In contrast to this permanent indwelling in the New Testament, the indwelling in the Old Testament was selective and temporary. The Holy Spirit “came upon” such Old Testament people as Joshua (Numbers 27:18), David (1 Samuel 16:12-13) and Saul (1 Samuel 10:10). In the book of Judges, we see the Holy Spirit “coming upon” these various judges whom God raised up to deliver Israel from their oppressors. The Holy Spirit did not permanently indwell them/seal them, but instead, came upon these individuals for specific tasks. So, while in the New Testament the Holy Spirit only indwells believers and that indwelling is permanent, the Holy Spirit came upon certain individuals in the Old Testament for a specific task and not to permanently seal them in the body of Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 makes it clear that those who believe the gospel are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. How long are believers sealed? Verse 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Those who do not believe the gospel are excluded. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) 1 Corinthians 12 deals with spiritual gifts which are only for the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13) and not for lost unbelievers or animals.

There is no such thing as the indwelling Holy Spirit in the OT. The indwelling work of the Holy Spirit is fully a New Covenant work. The passages that you cited, Numbers 27:18, 1 Samual 16:12-13, and 1 Samual 10:10, are only more occasions of being filled with the (empowering) Holy Spirit, not really any different that passages such as Exodus 31:3 and all the other such instances.

 

[Jim]

Absolutely! These Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47) The evidence from the text is overwhelming that these Gentles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues (which is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism.

There is the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit and there is the gift of the empowering Holy Spirit. They are not the same at all, being two different and distinct works of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jim]

Different covenant.

But the same Holy Spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

The gift of the Holy Spirit given to the repentant believer is not being filled with the Holy Spirit. The indwelling Holy Spirit and the empowering (filled with) Holy Spirit are two different and distinct works of the Holy Spirit. All (baptized) believers receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. Only a very select few received the filling of the Holy Spirit.

Yet in order to be filled with the Holy Spirit we must first receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight. (Acts 9:17) It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17) and this was BEFORE he was water baptized. (Acts 9:18) Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism.

It's interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior on the road to Damascus since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was still lost in his sins.

 

[Jim]

Yet in order to be filled with the Holy Spirit we must first receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

You cannot cite a single passage of Scripture that says any such thing.

 

[TomL]

The gift of the Holy Spirit given to the repentant believer is not being filled with the Holy Spirit. The indwelling Holy Spirit and the empowering (filled with) Holy Spirit are two different and distinct works of the Holy Spirit. All (baptized) believers receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. Only a very select few received the filling of the Holy Spirit.

How can the spirit indwell you and you not be filled with the Spirit?

 

[mailmandan]

There is no such thing as the indwelling Holy Spirit in the OT. The indwelling work of the Holy Spirit is fully a New Covenant work. The passages that you cited, Numbers 27:18, 1 Samual 16:12-13, and 1 Samual 10:10, are only more occasions of being filled with the (empowering) Holy Spirit, not really any different that passages such as Exodus 31:3 and all the other such instances.

So, how can these folks in the OT be filled with the Holy Spirit if they are not indwelled by the Holy Spirit? Was the apostle Paul filled, but not indwelled by the Holy Spirit in Acts 9:17? The permanent indwelling/being sealed with the Holy Spirit is fully a New Covenant work, yet the temporary indwelling of the Holy Spirit/coming upon certain individuals in the Old Testament for a specific task is an Old Covenant work.

 

[mailmandan]

You cannot cite a single passage of Scripture that says any such thing.

So, let me get this straight. You say there are people who are filled with the Holy Spirit that have not yet received the Holy Spirit? That's almost as ludicrous as the Balaam's donkey argument!

 

[Jim]

How can the spirit indwell you and you not be filled with the Spirit?

Because they are not the same thing. It is not just a semantic difference. They are two different and distinct works of the Holy Spirit. Neither work of the Holy Spirit is dependent upon His other work.

 

[Doug Brents]

Sure you are

That is all the donkey received and you have tried to pass it off as a baptism en the holy Ghost which the bible never mentions

There was no "baptism en the Holy Ghost" when Balam and his donkey lived. No, I am not trying to pass anything off as "baptism en the Holy Ghost". The point is that the gift of tongues/speech does not require "baptism en the Holy Ghost" to be received.

Are you claiming the donkey water baptised first then?

No, not at all.

If water baptism is necessary for the baptism en the Spirit how was the donkey baptised en the Spirit

The donkey was not baptized en the Spirit. The donkey was given the gift of speech by the Spirit, but that does not require "baptism en the Holy Spirit" nor does it require water baptism.

The fact the gentiles were baptised en the Spirit before water baptism

Acts 11:15–18 (UASV) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard these things, they became silent, and they glorified God, saying, “So, then, God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance that leads to life.”

No, the Gentiles received the miraculous empowerment of the Holy Spirit before they received the indwelling (baptism en the Holy Spirit) in water baptism.

Um that is not how the bible reads

Acts 10:45–48 (UASV) — 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and magnifying God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

Where we have a clear statement they received the Spirit

Sorry I already showed you it was a witness the gentiles had believed, had repentance unto life and their heart purified by faith

Sorry yourself. The Gentiles had not received the indwelling of the Spirit, only the miraculous empowerment of the Spirit. NO ONE receives the indwelling (what you like to call "baptism en the Holy Spirit") until they are baptized in water. This is clear from passages like Acts 22:16, 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:26-27, and others.

Does not answer the question if water baptism is necessary for the baptism en the Spirit how do you account for your false claim the donkey was baptised en the Spirit

I never claimed the donkey was "baptized en the Spirit".

Unto life argues differently but will you argue then that the donkey had repentance unto life and had witness of being a believer

The donkey neither had nor needed repentance, nor did it have or need witness of being a believer. You are trying to insinuate that the Holy Spirit requires living in a person (or beast's) heart to empower them with His gifts, but that is not the case.

There you go again assuming only a gift of tongues

When scripture states they received the Spirit not just a gift of tongues

Because that is all they received of Him at that point. They received miraculous empowerment of tongues and praise. The Spirit did not yet inhabit their hearts, and they were not yet saved.

 

[TomL]

There is the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit and there is the gift of the empowering Holy Spirit. They are not the same at all, being two different and distinct works of the Holy Spirit.

But How can one be indwelt by the Spirit and not empowered by the Spirit

Galatians 5:16–26 (KJV 1900) — 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Romans 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 

[Jim]

But How can one be indwelt by the Spirit and not empowered by the Spirit

Galatians 5:16–26 (KJV 1900) — 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Romans 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Are you indwelt by the Spirit? Can you work signs, wonders and miracles?

 

[TomL]

There was no "baptism en the Holy Ghost" when Balam and his donkey lived. No, I am not trying to pass anything off as "baptism en the Holy Ghost". The point is that the gift of tongues/speech does not require "baptism en the Holy Ghost" to be received.

So your claim that the baptism en the Spirit is simply an empowerment to speak in tongues is self refuted

No, not at all.

The donkey was not baptized en the Spirit. The donkey was given the gift of speech by the Spirit, but that does not require "baptism en the Holy Spirit" nor does it require water baptism.

And so again It was not a baptism en the Spirit the donkey received as per your original argument

and you have no argument that it was

You are left with the fact the gentiles were baptized en the Spirit and received the Spirit before water baptism

No, the Gentiles received the miraculous empowerment of the Holy Spirit before they received the indwelling (baptism en the Holy Spirit) in water baptism.

Sorry the text states they received the Spirit. It also states they were baptized en the Spirit. It does not state they received only a miraculous empowerment

You are twisting and contorting scripture to support your theology