Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation
- Thread starter dwight92070
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mailmandan
Active member
One of the most ludicrous arguments that I have ever heard (from folks who attend the church of Christ) in a desperate effort to "get around" the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 had received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues and were saved BEFORE water baptism is that Balaam's donkey also spoke in tongues, but that does not prove the donkey was saved either.
In the first place, the Lord simply opened the mouth of the donkey to speak in order to rebuke Balaam. The donkey did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit or the spiritual gift of tongues, which is for believers only. (Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12)
It is indeed absurdOne of the most ludicrous arguments that I have ever heard (from folks who attend the church of Christ) in a desperate effort to "get around" the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 had received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues and were saved BEFORE water baptism is that Balaam's donkey also spoke in tongues, but that does not prove the donkey was saved either.
In the first place, the Lord simply opened the mouth of the donkey to speak in order to rebuke Balaam. The donkey did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit or the spiritual gift of tongues, which is for believers only. (Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12)
The donkey was given the power of speech not the baptism en the Holy Ghost which was not available until the resurrection of Christ
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Your opinions are duly noted, and ignored as irrelevant.
Forgive me, oh mighty and perfect one. I failed to proofread my typing well enough to spot a missed letter. How terribly deficient of me.
Again, your opinions are duly noted. You are looking at all of this from the position of having come to a conclusion and then looking at the evidence and making it fit your preconceived conclusion. Unfortunately for you, your preconception is wrong, and the evidence cannot be made to fit it. The indwelling of the Spirit is received only by those who are in Christ, and we enter into Christ through water baptism. We cannot have the indwelling of the Spirit until our sins are washed away, and our sins are washed away in water baptism. Since the Gentiles in Acts 10 had not yet been baptized, they could not have had the indwelling of the Spirit. All that they could possibly have received when the Spirit fell is the same thing the Apostles received when He fell on them in Acts 2:4: the miraculous empowerment of the Spirit.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
So the Lord opened the donkey's mouth, but the donkey did not receive the gift of speach from the Holy Spirit???? Either He did or did not make the donkey speak. You can't have it both ways. Clearly the gift of speach is not for "beleivers only". Ephesians 1:13 and 1 Corinthians 12 do not in any way state that the gift of tongues cannot be given to people outside of the Church. Eph 1:13 has nothing to do with the gift of tongues, and 1 Cor 12 only addresses the hierarchy of gifts within the Church, not what gifts are restricted only to the Church.One of the most ludicrous arguments that I have ever heard (from folks who attend the church of Christ) in a desperate effort to "get around" the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 had received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues and were saved BEFORE water baptism is that Balaam's donkey also spoke in tongues, but that does not prove the donkey was saved either.
In the first place, the Lord simply opened the mouth of the donkey to speak in order to rebuke Balaam. The donkey did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit or the spiritual gift of tongues, which is for believers only. (Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12)
Doug Brents
Well-known member
That is exactly the point. The donkey received a gift that you are saying is only for those in the Church long before the Church was a reality. So either the gift of speech/speaking in tongues can be given to whomever the Lord wants to give it, or the donkey was not given the power of speech by the Lord.
Read again
I did not say
The donkey received a gift which is only for those in the Church long before the Church was a reality.
And you just ignored the point
That no one received the Baptism en the Holy Ghost until pentecost
The donkey was given the power of speech, not a filling of the Holy Spirit
And there is no indication that any in the Old Testament who were said to have been filled with the Holy Spirit were saved. Being filled with the Holy Spirit to perform signs, wonders and miracles was never said to be a testimony to the salvation of the one being filled.
Ephesians 1:13 makes no statement whatsoever about the spiritual gift of tongues. And 1 Corinthians 12 deals with the special divinely installed gifts, not the unique gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit that every believer receives.
Exo 31:3 "I have filled him with the Spirit of God in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all kinds of craftsmanship,
Was that the filling of the Holy Spirit?
civic
Well-known member
Amen brother !!!One of the most ludicrous arguments that I have ever heard (from folks who attend the church of Christ) in a desperate effort to "get around" the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 had received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues and were saved BEFORE water baptism is that Balaam's donkey also spoke in tongues, but that does not prove the donkey was saved either.
In the first place, the Lord simply opened the mouth of the donkey to speak in order to rebuke Balaam. The donkey did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit or the spiritual gift of tongues, which is for believers only. (Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12)
Doug Brents
Well-known member
That is exactly the point, Tom: the gift of speech/speaking in tongues does not require the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This means that the gift of speech/speaking in tongues is NOT "only for those in the Church". The Holy Spirit can give His gifts wherever He chooses, and to whomever He chooses. 1 Cor 12 lists the order of precedence of the Spirit's gifts as they pertain to the Church, but that does not mean that those gifts are only available to those in the Church.
civic
Well-known member
not the permanent indwelling like we know came at Pentecost for all NT believers. NT believers are SEALED with the Holy Spirit who lives in them whereas the H.S. came upon men and left men in the OT. This is why David begged and pleaded with God not to take away His Spirit from him.
hope this helps !!!
Sorry you conflate the baptism en the Holy Ghost with a gift enabling the power of speech
showing you really have no idea what it is.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
No, it is you who seems to think that the Holy Spirit can only empower those in whom He indwells. That is not the case. He can empower anyone, or anything, at His sole discretion. He empowered the donkey, He empowered the Gentiles, He has empowered many, many people before there even was an indwelling. The fact that He empowers someone or something does not in any way indicate their salvation.
Yes, but the passages that speak of one being filled with the Holy Spirit is not speaking of one being indwelled with the Holy Spirit. Thus for example, Acts 2:4 which relates to those at Pentecost being filled with the Holy Spirit is not speaking of anyone being indwelled with the Holy Spirit. In both case, however, they may be referred to as gifts. It is important to distinguish which gift, filling or indwelling, is being addressed.
Sorry you are assuming the baptism en the Spirit is only an empowering to speak
It is much more
1 Corinthians 12:13 — 13 For en one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
And places one into the body of Christ
And it served as a witness they had believed and should be baptized
Acts 10:45–48 (KJV 1900) — 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
would you baptize the donkey?
Convinced the Jews that the gentiles had repentance unto life
Acts 11:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
and that the gentiles had their hearts purified by faith
Acts 15:8–9 (KJV 1900) — 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
That is not what I am assuming at all.
Sorry, the baptism "en" the Holy Spirit (as you like to call it) occurs during water baptism, which is when one is placed into the body of Christ. Receiving the miraculous gift(s)/empowerment of the Holy Spirit does not require baptism en the Holy Spirit.
In verse 45 above, the Holy Spirit descended on the Gentiles in miraculous power just as He did on the Apostles "in the beginning" (on Pentecost). But you are associating that with the indwelling (which it is not), that did not occur for the Gentiles until they were baptized in water which didn't happen until verse 48. The Gentiles were not saved, were still in sin, did not have the indwelling of the Spirit, and were not in the body of Christ until verse 48.
No, the donkey has no sin to be washed away.
Repentance unto (that leads to) life. Repentance does not bring about salvation in itself. It is just one of the required elements that leads to salvation.
Purifying their hearts by what? Faith!! Not by the gift of tongues, not by the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, but FAITH! And faith is not something that God does, but is OUR response to what He has done. Faith requires action on our part, it is not passive. Saving faith requires obedience to the things that God has said lead to/result in receiving salvation. And those things are repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Mark 16:16, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, John 3:5).
dwight92070
Well-known member
Since Ananias calls Saul "Brother Saul", then his sins had already been washed away, when Jesus "struck" him with bright light. There's no way Ananias is going to call Saul a brother, since he knew how evil Saul had been (and was afraid of Saul), unless he had already repented and been born again, and received the indwelling Holy Spirit, and forgiveness of sins. But now it was 3 days later. Ananias wanted to make sure that he repented of any sins during those 3 days, as unlikely as that sounds, and yet still very plausible.
Also when Ananias laid his hands on Saul, the scripture says he was "filled with the Holy Spirit", the same term used on the day of Pentecost, for what happened to the 120 believers, who were in the upper room. They had already been born again, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, 1 Cor. 12:13, but on the day of Pentecost they were baptized in the Holy Spirit, also called filled with the Holy Spirit, by Jesus Himself. Remember John the Baptist said that Jesus would be baptizing believers in the Holy Spirit.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Not true at all. On the day of Pentecost, the 120 believers, (who had already been baptized in water as a disciple of Jesus, and already had the indwelling Holy Spirit, John 20:22,) were now baptized by Jesus in the Holy Spirit, Acts 1:5, also called filled with the Spirit in Acts 2:4. There was no need for the 120 to be baptized in water again, since they had already been baptized in the name of Jesus. Any new believers, however, on that day, were baptized in water. They received the new birth and the baptism in the Holy Spirit all at the same time, which also happened with Cornelius' family in Acts 10.
Because it refutes your heresy.
What a weirdo.
Clean up your act.
Every other instance agrees with what I am asserting.
None agrees with yours.
Zero proof.
See your comment above.
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