Which you couldn't refute concerning the Gentiles possession of in post 240.
A sad face doesn't constitute evidence. Get a clue.
Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation
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Which you couldn't refute concerning the Gentiles possession of in post 240.
A sad face doesn't constitute evidence. Get a clue.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
I did refute your claim that the Gentiles had the indwelling of the Spirit before they were water baptized. They received miraculous empowerment of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues and praise), just as the Apostles did "in the beginning" (at Pentecost) (Acts 11:15). The indwelling of the Spirit is not received before salvation occurs, and salvation is received DURING WATER BAPTISM as is stated in Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-7 and Col 2:11-14.
Your assertion does mean proof.
If one has the gift of tongues then he/she is "in the church" (1 Corinthians 12:28).
Doug Brents
Well-known member
No, it does not. The list of gifts in 1 Cor 12:28 is a listing of the hierarchy of gifts of the Spirit within the Church. But that does not preclude those gifts being given to those outside of the Church. We both agree that the Holy Spirit did not indwell anyone in the OT, and as has been evidenced, there are many in the OT who received gifts of the Spirit. So they were not indwelt but they had His gifts. This is the same situation the Gentiles in Acts 10 and 11 were in.
Thus, these Gentiles were in the church before their water baptism.
Just your guess and the only example you think you have are these Gentiles.
How convenient.
Different covenant.
One can not have a gift of the Holy Spirit unless one has the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
No, they were not. Taking snippets out of my comments and not addressing the whole of what was said is dishonest.
No, that is based on evidence all through the Scriptures.
Doesn't matter. The fact that there is now an indwelling does not change the fact that the Holy Spirit can work in people, and give people who are not in the Church gifts, just as He did before there was an indwelling.
Yes, they can, as is evidenced by all the people in the OT who had gifts of the Holy Spirit without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
You are not being honest with 1 Corinthians 12:28.
You can choose to live in the covenant that has been abrogated if you want to.
See above.
Simple.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Yes, I am. Just because a list of gift is set in value order within the Church does not mean that those same gifts cannot exist outside of the Church. You are reading your own bias into the Scripture.
Again, you take snippets out of my comment without addressing the whole of what I said. You fail.
No you're not.
It's plural. Not singular.
Already addressed in my previous post.
Furthermore, when Luke associates "speaking" and "tongues" in the Book of Acts it is always in reference to saved people (Acts 2:4, 11; 10:46; 19:6).
Again, you have no proof for what you are asserting. The most you supplied (besides your guess) is from an abrogated covenant. That's the best you got.
Pitiful.
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Yes that is true
And the gentiles reception of the gift was seen as evidence the gentiles should be baptized with water
Yes
1 Corinthians 12:13 (UASV) — 13 For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit.
mailmandan
Active member
Absolutely! These Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47) The evidence from the text is overwhelming that these Gentles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues (which is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism.
Yes. Acts 2:4 describes the filling with the Holy Spirit for the empowering to perform the miraculous. That was not really a new gift but had occurred throughout the OT. We see it occurring with some in the Gospels with the twelve some others and Jesus Himself. It was not a work of the Holy Spirit in the salvation of believers. Acts 2:38 was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It was absolutely a new work of the Holy Spirit beginning at Pentecost and was a gift given to all repentant baptized believers.
The ability to work signs, wonders and miracles was not limited to believers. In fact it was an ability given to Balaam's donkey (Num 22) . Being filled with the Holy Spirit is not limited to the body of Christ, nor is it an indication of being saved.
Baptism with/by/in the Holy Spirit occurs in water baptism in the name of Jesus such as first introduced at Pentecost in Acts 2:38. It is different that the gift of being filled with the Holy Spirit to perform signs, wonders and miracles.
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