Matthias
Well-known member
I would say that Jesus of Nazareth, a human person, is the exact image of his God and my God, one person, the Father.
Worshipping The Son
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I would say that Jesus of Nazareth, a human person, is the exact image of his God and my God, one person, the Father.
He set the example of worshiping God. Since we are now in Ascended times, and Jesus has reassumed his God glory, we now worship God as 3 persons.
Matthias
Well-known member
Agreed. And when he worshiped God, he worshipped the Father or the Trinity?
I don’t. Trinitarians do.
N.T. Wright acknowledges that Jesus of Nazareth was a 1st century Jewish monotheist. So do I. Jewish monotheists don’t worship the Trinity.
You don't think that Jesus is the Uncreated Word of God made flesh, as revealed by John in chapter 1?
Matthias
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
You do know that the accepted meaning of monotheism includes the 3 major world religions of Judaism, Islam and Christianity ( Trinitariansim ) right ?
All Jews and Christians believe in and worship One God.
Matthias
Well-known member
You do know that the accepted meaning of monotheism includes the 3 major world religions of Judaism, Islam and Christianity ( Trinitariansim ) right ?
All Jews and Christians believe in and worship One God.
That’s trinitarian monotheism, not Jewish monotheism. Jewish monotheism is unitarian.
Have you read John 1:1-5 in the Geneva Bible?
That's where we differ, my friend.
What about it? The title sounds Calvinistic.
By the way, what sold you about NT Wright, in light of John 1? Does he mention John 1?
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civic
Well-known member
I can show you plenty of places in the OT where it was not the Father who was worshipped. It was someone other than the Father. I can prove that with the teaching of Jesus that they were Christophanies/Theophanies.
Matthias
Well-known member
Yes.
It’s the major translation of the Bible produced during the Protestant Reformation. It was also the major Bible used by Protestants prior to the KJV.
Have you read John 1:1-5 in the Tyndale Bible?
He’s just one of a large number of trinitarian theologians I read.
If the above is true then proof where the Father receives prayer or worship from people that the Son does not receive in equality from people elsewhere.
I've read John 1 in the Greek Koine Bible which supercedes all English translations.
So what of the Geneva or Tyndale translation. My communication will be sporatic for the next hour or two.
civic
Well-known member
Since God took the form of a man in the person of the preincarnate Jesus Christ this has to mean that Jesus Christ is God. So on what basis do I come to this conclusion? On the basis of what Jesus Christ Himself said at John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath seen the Father." And on the basis of the testimony of Old Testament saints themselves. Look at Genesis 16:13, "Then she/Hagar called the name OF THE LORD ( YHWH)WHO spoke to her, Thou art a God who sees; for she said, Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him."
Look also at Genesis 18 reading the whole chapter. Here is what vs1 states, "Now the Lord (YHWH)appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he/Abraham was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." Please read the rest of the chapter and cross reference what Genesis 21:2 says regarding Genesis 18. "So Sarah conceived and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the appointed time OF WHICH GOD HAD SPOKEN TO HIM."
And who appeared to Isaac at Genesis 26:2? "And the Lord appeared to him and said, "Do not go down to Egypt, stay in the land of which I shall tell you." Now look at Genesis 26:3, "Sojourn in this land and I will be with you and bless you, for to your and to your descendants I will give all these lands, and I will ESTABLISH THE OATH WHICH I SWORE (YHWH)TO YOUR FATHER ABRAHAM."
Where did God swear this oath to Abraham ? Look at the whole chapter of Genesis 22 specifically verses 11-18. It was the angel of the Lord/Jesus Christ who swore the oath and He is identified as, what did you say, "God introduced Himself in the first person singular as "The Being." In fact, even the New Testament backs up this first person singular being swearing the oath by Himself at Hebrews 6:13,14, "For when GOD made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD NOT SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF. saying, "I will surely bless you; and I will surely multiply you." If you believe that it was an angel that swore the oath on Gods behalf than why does the text say God swore the oath BY HIMSELF AND THERE IS NO ONE GREATER, especially created angels?
hope this helps !!!
Look also at Genesis 18 reading the whole chapter. Here is what vs1 states, "Now the Lord (YHWH)appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he/Abraham was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." Please read the rest of the chapter and cross reference what Genesis 21:2 says regarding Genesis 18. "So Sarah conceived and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the appointed time OF WHICH GOD HAD SPOKEN TO HIM."
And who appeared to Isaac at Genesis 26:2? "And the Lord appeared to him and said, "Do not go down to Egypt, stay in the land of which I shall tell you." Now look at Genesis 26:3, "Sojourn in this land and I will be with you and bless you, for to your and to your descendants I will give all these lands, and I will ESTABLISH THE OATH WHICH I SWORE (YHWH)TO YOUR FATHER ABRAHAM."
Where did God swear this oath to Abraham ? Look at the whole chapter of Genesis 22 specifically verses 11-18. It was the angel of the Lord/Jesus Christ who swore the oath and He is identified as, what did you say, "God introduced Himself in the first person singular as "The Being." In fact, even the New Testament backs up this first person singular being swearing the oath by Himself at Hebrews 6:13,14, "For when GOD made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD NOT SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF. saying, "I will surely bless you; and I will surely multiply you." If you believe that it was an angel that swore the oath on Gods behalf than why does the text say God swore the oath BY HIMSELF AND THERE IS NO ONE GREATER, especially created angels?
hope this helps !!!
Very good points. It's at Jesus' condescension that Unitarians get all tripped up. They focus on that, disregard that Jesus is still the Great "I Am", and see him only in that "state". They totally disregard the Theophanies in the OT, that you pointed out, and his post-Ascension elevation back to God Glory as God, as the Word of God to be more exact.
Matthias
Well-known member
It doesn’t ”supersede all English translations” for me.
Have you read John’s prologue of his Gospel in either of those translations? It won’t look anything like what it looks like in KJV.
No problem. I’m multi-tasking myself this morning.
The last days (plural sense) started at Pentecost.
civic
Well-known member
The last days began when Christ came on the scene. That began what is called the last days. The time between His 1st and 2nd Comings.
The Koine Greek Bible settles English translation disputes for me. My presuppositions are dismissed whenever I consult the Koine Greek Bible.
I'm curious to know what you spotted.
Matthias
Well-known member
Thanks. I would place it a little earlier; at the beginning of Messiah’s ministry. Others place it a little earlier still; at the birth of Messiah. At any rate, it seems that we are in agreement that it was early in the 1st century.
The reason I asked is because of what is written in Hebrews 1:1-2
“God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.”
This suggests to me that God did not speak in his son prior to the coming of his son in the 1st century.
