Worshipping The Son

[Matthias]

The last days began when Christ came on the scene. That began what is called the last days. The time between His 1st and 2nd Comings.

Thanks.That’s something we can agree on.

 

[Matthias]

And when he worshiped God, he worshipped the Father or the Trinity?

@synergy did you answer this question? I’m juggling several things at the moment and may have missed it if you did. If you did, could you direct me to that post?

I know you’re busy with other things this morning too. If you didn’t, would you do so at your convenience? Thanks.

 

[civic]

@synergy did you answer this question? I’m juggling several things at the moment and may have missed it if you did. If you did, could you direct me to that post?

I know you’re busy with other things this morning too. If you didn’t, would you do so at your convenience? Thanks.

The Son worshipped the Father and taught us how to pray. As a man, Jesus has a God. No Trinitarian should deny this obvious fact.

 

[Matthias]

The Son worshipped the Father and taught us how to pray. As a man, Jesus has a God. No Trinitarian should deny this obvious fact.

As a man, didn’t he act as a unitarian does?

 

[civic]

As a man, didn’t he act as a unitarian does?

Yes as He was our example. But we must not forget Jesus was also prayed to and worshipped by Jews whom were His disciples and those Jews He healed. No Jew was allowed to pray to or worship anyone but YHWH or they broke the 1st commandment. And unlike angels who appeared to men and the men would try and worship them and they would deny that idolatry, Jesus accepted their worship.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Fred]

There is no allowance to worship any other deity besides Yahweh. That’s the key word - deity. Yahweh is the only deity you shall worship.

Others besides Yahweh can be, and are, legitimately worshipped in the scriptures. None of them are deities, nor are any of them worshipped as deities.

Those who worship anyone or anything besides Yahweh as a deity aren’t doing so legitimately. They are breaking the commandment. They are idolaters.

Please provide proof where the Father receives prayer or worship from people that the Son does not receive in equality from people elsewhere.

 

[Matthias]

Yes as He was our example.

So we appear to agree that Jesus the man acted in practice as I act in practice.

But we must not forget Jesus was also prayed to and worshipped by Jews whom were His disciples and those Jews He healed. No Jew was allowed to pray to or worship anyone but YHWH or they broke the 1st commandment.

hope this helps !!!

That’s a trinitarian perspective. It assumes that Jesus is the second person of the Triune God. That places an awareness of the Trinity long before the doctrine of the Trinity was formulated. In other words, it is turning unitarians into trinitarians rather than allowing them to be what they were, unitarians.

There is nothing which would have prevented a fellow Jew (unitarian) who believed Jesus (himself a Jew and unitarian) is the resurrected human Messiah to pray to and to worship him. The only deity they worshipped and prayed to is their God and the Messiah’s God, the Father. (That’s what the unitarian branch of Messianic Judaism does.)

Are you familiar with the term “elemental trinitarianism”?

 

[Fred]

There is nothing which would have prevented a fellow Jew (unitarian) who believed Jesus (himself a Jew and unitarian) is the resurrected human Messiah to pray to and to worship him. The only deity they worshipped and prayed to is their God and the Messiah’s God, the Father.

Then it is a contradiction to deny Jesus is God - in any less of a degree than that of the Father.

 

[civic]

So we appear to agree that Jesus the man acted in practice as I act in practice.



That’s a trinitarian perspective. It assumes that Jesus is the second person of the Triune God. That places an awareness of the Trinity long before the doctrine of the Trinity was formulated. In other words, it is turning unitarians into trinitarians rather than allowing them to be what they were, unitarians.

There is nothing which would have prevented a fellow Jew (unitarian) who believed Jesus (himself a Jew and unitarian) is the resurrected human Messiah to pray to and to worship him. The only deity they worshipped and prayed to is their God and the Messiah’s God, the Father.

Are you familiar with the term “elemental trinitarianism”?

No it assumes what is said about Jesus at face value when reading the text is actually what happened. People worshiped Him and He accepted their worship. Jesus also promised His disciples that after He Ascended into heaven that they could ask Him anything ( pray to Him ) and he would grant them their requests. See John 14:14, John 16:24. And we see Stephen upon His death pray to Jesus to receive his spirit. That would be idolatry for any Jew.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Matthias]

No it assumes what is said about Jesus at face value when reading the text it actually what happened. People worshiped Him and He accepted their worship. Jesus also promised His disciples that after He Ascended into heaven that they could ask Him anything ( pray to Him ) and he would grant them their requests. See John 14:14, John 16:24. And we see Stephen upon His death pray to Jesus to receive his spirit. That would be idolatry for any Jew.

hope this helps !!!

I agree with much of this but I disagree with your understanding that his disciples in the first century were trinitarians.

I’ve found two books written by trinitarian authors to be particularly good on this point.

 

[Matthias]

The two books I alluded to are:

1. Heresies: Heresy And Orthodoxy In The History Of The Church. It was written by Harold O.J. Brown (a Protestant). He was writing specifically to and for people like me, whom he hoped to persuade to return to historical orthodox trinitarianism. I highly recommend it to trinitarians and non-trinitarians alike.

2. The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity. It was written by Edmund J. Fortman (a Catholic) in defense of the Trinity. I also highly recommend it to trinitarians and non-trinitarians alike.

 

[Matthias]

The man Messiah Jesus acted as a unitarian would act, not as a trinitarian would act. That’s easy. What’s not easy is the reluctance of most trinitarians to acknowledge that the man Messiah Jesus was what he acted, a unitarian.

It is what it is. Trinitarians must be allowed to believe what they are persuaded is true.

What it was for me as a trinitarian was a first step away from trinitarianism. A full exit from trinitarianism followed several years later.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Meanwhile, the elephant in the room is the only God whom Jesus of Nazareth worships.

It isn’t the Trinity. Jesus of Nazareth isn’t a trinitarian.

I see you didn't deal with Rev 19:10. Why?

 

[praise_yeshua]

The two books I alluded to are:

1. Heresies: Heresy And Orthodoxy In The History Of The Church. It was written by Harold O.J. Brown (a Protestant). He was writing specifically to and for people like me, whom he hoped to persuade to return to historical orthodox trinitarianism. I highly recommend it to trinitarians and non-trinitarians alike.

2. The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity. It was written by Edmund J. Fortman (a Catholic) in defense of the Trinity. I also highly recommend it to trinitarians and non-trinitarians alike.

Why appeal to books in such a manner. Include a reference to a specific point you like to make or make the argument your own.

 

[Matthias]

I see you didn't deal with Rev 19:10. Why?

Would you be persuaded by a Jewish monotheists perspective on that or any other passage?

 

[civic]

The man Messiah Jesus acted as a unitarian would act, not as a trinitarian would act. That’s easy. What’s not easy is the reluctance of most trinitarians to acknowledge that the man Messiah Jesus was what he acted, a unitarian.

It is what it is. Trinitarians must be allowed to believe what they are persuaded is true.

What it was for me as a trinitarian was a first step away from trinitarianism. A full exit from trinitarianism followed several years later.

Actually He placed Himself as Equal with the Father which is Trinitarianism. Its why the pharisees tried killing Him several times for claiming to be God. They know exactly what Jesus meant hence tried killing Him for what they were claiming was His blasphemy.

 

[Matthias]

Why appeal to books in such a manner.

I’m multi-tasking this morning. Appealing to the books invites readers to respond with either an acknowledgement of having read them or expressing an interest in then. If the former, there’s probably no need for me to quote from them. If the later, there’s an opening for me to provide quotations.

If there is no interest, quotations are probably a waste of time.

Include a reference to a specific point you like to make or make the argument your own.

The trinitarian authors make the point for me. Would a trinitarian be more open to hearing the concessions of trinitarian theologians to my position or to hearing me, a Jewish monotheist and ex-trinitarians, make the argument?

I’ve learned from three decades of experience that it’s the former.

 

[Matthias]

Actually He placed Himself as Equal with the Father which is Trinitarianism. Its why the pharisees tried killing Him several times for claiming to be God. They know exactly what Jesus meant hence tried killing Him for what they were claiming was His blasphemy.

The man Messiah Jesus is functionally equal with the Father, which is Jewish monotheism.

 

[civic]

The man Messiah Jesus is functionally equal with the Father, which is Jewish monotheism.

And equal ontologically as well which is Trinitarianism.

 

[Fred]

The man Messiah Jesus is functionally equal with the Father, which is Jewish monotheism.

You are dodging prayer and worship to Jesus because this proves He is ontologically equal with the Father.