Worshipping The Son

[synergy]

I don’t worship 2 persons of the Trinity. There’s no hop for me to make.

As a trinitarian, you should know and - unless, you tell me otherwise - I assume you believe that Jesus is not a human person.

I believe Jesus is a human person.

Jesus has both 100% human nature and 100% God nature.

By the way, did you ever come across the Shem Tob manuscripts? They are supposedly the Hebrew Gospel of the original Matthew manuscripts. The English translation was done by George Howard. I am very suspicious of their claim that they are Hebrew translation from the original Greek manuscripts. Just asking, no big deal if you haven't.

 

[Matthias]

Jesus has both 100% human nature and 100% God nature.

Fully God, fully man. The Hypostatic Union. That’s trinitarianism. That’s what you believe about Jesus. That’s not what I believe about Jesus.

As I said, I believe Jesus is a human person. Trinitarianism teaches us that Jesus is not a human person. @civic and I had a great conversation about this yesterday. Holding the belief that Jesus is a human person eliminates any possibility of such a person being a trinitarian.

By the way, did you ever come across the Shem Tob manuscripts? They are supposedly the Hebrew Gospel of the original Matthew manuscripts. The English translation was done by George Howard. I am very suspicious of their claim that they are Hebrew translation from the original Greek manuscripts. Just asking, no big deal if you haven't.

Yes. I’m skeptical about it too.

btw, this is the kind of conversation that I look for on Internet discussion forums and so seldom find. Thank you.

 

[synergy]

Fully God, fully man. The Hypostatic Union. That’s trinitarianism. That’s what you believe about Jesus. That’s not what I believe about Jesus.

As I said, I believe Jesus is a human person. Trinitarianism teaches us that Jesus is not a human person. @civic and I had a great conversation about this yesterday. Holding the belief that Jesus is a human person eliminates any possibility of such a person being a trinitarian.



Yes. I’m skeptical about it too.

btw, this is the kind of conversation that I look for on Internet discussion forums and so seldom find. Thank you.

What do you think about the Shem Tob version of Matt 28:19? Some of your unitarian colleagues say that its version of Matt 28:19, known around here as the Great Commission verse, is the correct one. They say that because there is no mention in there of Father, Son, Holy Spirit as there is in the 4th century greek manuscripts.

I have several other Hebrew verses that I would like to quiz you. More importantly, what are your thoughts about the LXX? Which OT manuscript is your preferred choice?

 

[synergy]

Fully God, fully man. The Hypostatic Union. That’s trinitarianism. That’s what you believe about Jesus. That’s not what I believe about Jesus.

As I said, I believe Jesus is a human person. Trinitarianism teaches us that Jesus is not a human person. @civic and I had a great conversation about this yesterday. Holding the belief that Jesus is a human person eliminates any possibility of such a person being a trinitarian.

Then why do you worship the Messiah?

 

[Matthias]

What do you think about the Shem Tob version of Matt 28:19? Some of your unitarian colleagues say that its version of Matt 28:19, known around here as the Great Commission verse, is the correct one. They say that because there is no mention in there of Father, Son, Holy Spirit as there is in the 4th century greek manuscripts.

I understand their position but disagree with it. I think the Greek manuscripts are genuine and reliable.

I have several other Hebrew verses that I would like to quiz you. More importantly, what are your thoughts about the LXX?

As you’re probably aware, the LXX is complicated for a number of reasons. However, the NT writers frequently quote from it and, when they do, I accept those particular quotations as valid scripture. I’ve never read the entire Septuagint, in any of it’s versions, all the way through. I’ve treated it as a resource. I have a copy in my personal library and really should put it on a bucket list of things to read cover to cover someday.

Which OT manuscript is your preferred choice?

I have no preferred choice. Commentaries are a good source for comparing and contrasting OT and NT manuscripts. I’ve found the NET commentary to be very good in this respect.

What about you?

 

[Matthias]

Then why do you worship the Messiah?

I worship him because he is the king of the coming kingdom of God. There is no one greater than the Messiah except [his and my] God.

Do you recognize and acknowledge that there is difference between the Hebrew words adonai and adoni?

The Messiah is adoni. God is adonai. Psalm 110:1 is a key passage that establishes this important point.

A single vowel makes a crucial distinction.

P.S.

I wrote a chorus for young children around 20 years ago. I used the English words “moose” and “mouse” to illustrate the difference a single vowel makes as a humorous way to help them remember the difference between adonai and adoni. It turned out that adults enjoyed it too.

 

[synergy]

I understand their position but disagree with it. I think the Greek manuscripts are genuine and reliable.

Thank you for your honest opinion on the Shem Tob manuscripts.

CC: @APAK , @Wrangler

As you’re probably aware, the LXX is complicated for a number of reasons. However, the NT writers frequently quote from it and, when they do, I accept those particular quotations as valid scripture. I’ve never read the entire Septuagint, in any of it’s versions, all the way through. I’ve treated it as a resource. I have a copy in my personal library and really should put it on a bucket list of things to read cover to cover someday.

The LXX version that we have has generally inserted Kurios, Theos, or Thespotas wherever the Hebrew text mentioned Yahweh or Adonai. What is your opinion of that?

I have no preferred choice. Commentaries are a good source for comparing and contrasting OT and NT manuscripts. I’ve found the NET commentary to be very good in this respect.

What about you?

I'll stick with the Brenton version until a more modern language translation of the LXX comes along. I heard that the Orthodox community is on the verge of creating a translation but I have yet to see it on the marketplace. If any community knows Greek, it's them.

 

[Matthias]

Thank you for your honest opinion on the Shem Tob manuscripts.

CC: @APAK , @Wrangler

You’re welcome but there’s really no need to thank me for being honest.

The LXX version that we have has generally inserted Kurios, Theos, or Thespotas wherever the Hebrew text mentioned Yahweh or Adonai. What is your opinion of that?

I don’t particularly care for it. To me it’s a lot like the Hebrew substitution ha shem (“the name”). I think we just have to keep in mind that a substitution is being made.

I'll stick with the Brenton version until a more modern language translation of the LXX comes along.

Brenton is the one I have in my personal library. It’s also available at no cost online.

I heard that the Orthodox community is on the verge of creating a translation but I have yet to see it on the marketplace. If any community knows Greek, it's them.

I hadn’t heard that. If / when it comes out I would appreciate it if you would let me know. I’ll keep an eye out for it.

 

[synergy]

I worship him because he is the king of the coming kingdom of God. There is no one greater than the Messiah except [his and my] God.

Do you recognize and acknowledge that there is difference between the Hebrew words adonai and adoni?

The Messiah is adoni. God is adonai. Psalm 110:1 is a key passage that establishes this important point.

A single vowel makes a crucial distinction.

P.S.

I wrote a chorus for young children around 20 years ago. I used the English words “moose” and “mouse” to illustrate the difference a single vowel makes as a humorous way to help them remember the difference between adonai and adoni. It turned out that adults enjoyed it too.

Interesting point you made of adoni and adonai. But doesn't the 1st commandment say that you should worship only God and nothing/noone else?

 

[Matthias]

Interesting point you made of adoni and adonai. But doesn't the 1st commandment say that you should worship only God and nothing/noone else?

No. It says that we should worship no other god besides Yahweh.

There is no God besides Yahweh. Everything else is idols.

 

[synergy]

@Matthias, I guess you converted from Judaism to Unitarianism? If so, I hope it was not too great of a sacrifice or impact to you and your immediate family.

 

[Matthias]

@Matthias, I guess you converted from Judaism to Unitarianism?

No. I converted from trinitarianism to unitarianism; specifically to Jewish monotheism. I don’t agree with all unitarian theology.

If so, I hope it was not too great of a sacrifice or impact to you and your immediate family.

Thank you. My parents were agnostics. They couldn’t have cared less. My siblings weren’t baptized at the time. They’re both trinitarian now, but believe that everyone must make their own decision. My grandparents were all trinitarians. They all believed in OSAS. Since I was baptized in the Southern Baptist Church, they were disappointed (to put it mildly) but didn’t consider it to be a salvation issue. We remained on good terms for the remainder of their lives, though there was always a palpable undercurrent. (I don’t believe in OSAS, but that’s another story for another day.)

I lost a substantial number of close friends. I took my best friend at the time out to lunch to tell him. He didn’t have much to stay but what he said was weighty. He immediately got up from the table without finishing his meal, told me that he could no longer speak with me, that I was dead to him and on the road to hell, then stormed out of the restaurant. I finished eating my meal, paid the check for both of us, and left the restaurant. I never saw or spoke with him again after that. That’s the most extreme repercussion I’ve experienced with family and friends.

It isn’t child’s play. It‘s serious business.

 

[synergy]

No. It says that we should worship no other god besides Yahweh.

There is no God besides Yahweh. Everything else is idols.

(Luke 4:8) And Jesus answered and said to him, Get behind me, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve."

(Luke 4:8) καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς αὐτῷ εἶπεν ὁ ᾿Ιησοῦς· ὕπαγε ὀπίσω μου, Σατανᾶ· γέγραπται γάρ, Κύριον τὸν Θεόν σου προσκυνήσεις καὶ αὐτῷ μόνῳ λατρεύσεις.

The Greek word λατρεύσεις translates better to worship. Serve is a very poor translation of λατρεύσεις. Waiters serve clients, Prime Ministers serve the population. The word "serve" just doesn't cut it.

Luke 4:8 is better rendered "...Him only shall you [worship]".

What about the προσκυνήσεις word that is translated to worship? That is a Godly bow down, an Godly obeisance, a Godly reverence.

Sorry to hear about your conversion troubles. God has a special plan for you, I'm sure.

 

[Matthias]

(Luke 4:8) And Jesus answered and said to him, Get behind me, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve."

(Luke 4:8) καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς αὐτῷ εἶπεν ὁ ᾿Ιησοῦς· ὕπαγε ὀπίσω μου, Σατανᾶ· γέγραπται γάρ, Κύριον τὸν Θεόν σου προσκυνήσεις καὶ αὐτῷ μόνῳ λατρεύσεις.

The Greek word λατρεύσεις translates better to worship. Serve is a very poor translation of λατρεύσεις. Waiters serve clients, Prime Ministers serve the population. The word "serve" just doesn't cut it.

Luke 4:8 is better rendered "...Him only shall you [worship]".

What about the προσκυνήσεις word that is translated to worship? That is a Godly bow down, an Godly obeisance, a Godly reverence.

The Gk. proskuneo is the equivalent of the Heb. shachah.

Sorry to hear about your conversion troubles. God has a special plan for you, I'm sure.

Thank you but my troubles really have been light, so far.

God has used me as an elder, a pastor and an adjunct college professor of theology. (While I don’t particularly consider it God’s plan, I also worked as a civil / environmental engineer. The blessing that came with that is that I was able to travel extensively around the US and a few foreign countries, was financially able to take early retirement before reaching the age of 60, and able to serve as a pastor without accepting a salary and any benefits.) Since retiring and moving back to my home state, I’ve been working with neglected, abused and at risk children. I was recently appointed to serve a three-year term on a Kentucky Citizen Foster Care Review Board. Out of everything God has had me do, working with these children and their families has been the most difficult and satisfying for me.

Enough about me. Please tell me a little about yourself, if you don’t mind doing so.

 

[synergy]

The Gk. proskuneo is the equivalent of the Heb. shachah.

Does shachah translate to a Godly bowing down, a Godly obeisance, a Godly reverence?

 

[Matthias]

Does shachah translate to Godly bowing down, a Godly obeisance, a Godly reverence?

It can be, but it can also be used in a more general sense and applied to others.

 

[synergy]

It can be, but it can also be used in a more general sense and applied to others.

My Hebrew is non- existent. That's why I have to ask you questions like that. My Greek is very strong so I bank on the LXX alot so that I can cover the OT that way.

Anyways, if you agree that Luke 4:8 can be rendered "...Him only shall you [worship]", then why would you worship the Messiah, whom I think you don't consider as God?

 

[Matthias]

My Hebrew is non- existent. That's why I have to ask you questions like that. My Greek is very strong so I bank on the LXX alot so that I can cover the OT that way.

Knowledge of Hebrew and Greek are helpful but not essential. There are plenty of resources available for those of us who have little or no formal instruction in them. I’ve received formal instruction in both of them but I’m not fluent in either of them.

Anyways, if you agree that Luke 4:8 can be rendered "...Him only shall you [worship]", then why would you worship the Messiah, whom I think you don't consider as God?

I see the “Him” in Luke 4:8 as referring to God, not the Messiah. The temptation was for the Messiah to worship the devil. The temptation is real, not a charade. The Messiah, as we know, doesn’t succumb to the temptation. He then quotes the scripture to the devil concerning which deity he (the Messiah) and we are commanded to worship. There is no allowance to worship any other deity besides Yahweh. That’s the key word - deity. Yahweh is the only deity you shall worship.

Others besides Yahweh can be, and are, legitimately worshipped in the scriptures. None of them are deities, nor are any of them worshipped as deities.

Those who worship anyone or anything besides Yahweh as a deity aren’t doing so legitimately. They are breaking the commandment. They are idolaters.

That’s not the culture most of us live in today. “Worship” is a much wider category than most people realize.

I believe the Messiah both is and isn’t God. Unless you’re familiar with the Jewish Law of Agency, that will sound like a contradiction to you.

P.S.

If you’re interested, I’m providing a link to a very short article on the concept of agency. It‘s an excellent introduction. It will only take you a couple of minutes to read.

Shaliah | Hebrew Word Study | Skip Moen

As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. John 17:18 NASB Sent – The Jewish law of agency, known as shaliah, is crucial for understanding the idea of an apostle. In fact, the verb itself, apostéllō, used here to speak of the mission of Yeshua and the mission of his

skipmoen.com

I’m also providing a link to a much longer and more comprehensive article on the concept of agency. This one will take you much longer to read, if you decide that you want to.

http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/text/Raymond%20Essoe%20--%20Shaliah.pdf

I don’t expect you to agree with it. My only purpose in providing it is to help you and others gain an understanding of it. If you don’t find it persuasive then reject it. Either way, you’ll at least gain a better understanding of what I believe and why I believe it.

 

[Matthias]

@synergy are you able to agree that Jesus of Nazareth himself is a unitarian?

 

[Matthias]

The Son himself worshipping God is something I don’t hear trinitarians discuss much.