Worshipping The Son

[Matthias]

Origen lied. He more than lied, he was dishonest. It wasn't a simple mistake. I don't call people who make simple mistakes liars. I haven't called you a liar even though I disagree with you. You're making more seamless comparisons.

He’s fed the Church poison and the Church has swallowed it down with delight.

Throw out everything Origen said in his “helpful suggestion”! Bye bye doctrine of the Trinity when you do.

 

[Matthias]

No meaningful difference. He has zero influence upon me and many others.

He has if you’re a trinitarian.

You and your professors are overstating his influence.

That’s ludicrous.

That is what happens when you start embellishing men.

Embellishing men? I’m defending trinitarians from trinitarians.

 

[Matthias]

Why not say it. Say Christ is less than God. You need say it and then define how rank establishes it. The argument centers around rank. I've been trying to get you to deal with what is important. Who cares what Origen said. We don't need him to establish anything..

The doctrine of the Trinity wouldn’t exist without him, unless someone else later came up with his indispensable contribution to the formulation of the trinitarian doctrine. Pure speculation on my part, which I generally shy away from - someone else eventually would have come up with what he did.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That’s right. But what did the Church keep that came to it from Origen? That’s a rhetorical question.



You really didn’t think I would leave them out, did you? @praise_yeshua doesn’t want or need them. You‘ve seen what he is saying about them. Have you spoken with him privately about it? Because you sure haven’t publicly, at least not in this thread.

I’ve been at this all day. You havenm’t brought them up, and it’s going to take me a while to do it. Especially with everything else I have going on away from the forum.

And will it even matter?

They borrowed from paganism! You heard it straight from their lips. Does that bother you?

It was a theological equivalent of “Soylent Green is people!” moment.

The response of trinitarians? Ignore it.

Jesus Christ isn’t going to ignore it. You can write it down and take it to the bank.

What will he do about it? I don’t know. We’ll leave it in his hands, right where it belongs.

He has never once witnessed my appeal to such men. I don't appeal to other men to make my arguments for me. I'm not a lazy theologian living off the works of others. None of those listed are authorities on the subject.

You know why your professors taught you such methods? They wanted your money. That is what seminaries often do. They are in it for the money. They teach you to rely upon them so they can make merchandize of you. How well did you pay them?

 

[Matthias]

They either established their arguments upon the Scriptures and reason or they mean very little.

Ultimately, it is an argument centered around authority. I disarmed his argument because there is no authoritive position that denies the Holy Trinity. It doesn't exist.

Some day you’re going to be introduced to the authority whose Jewish monotheism your spiritual ancestors destroyed in their compromising with paganism. That’s the authority you should fear.

 

[praise_yeshua]

He has if you’re a trinitarian.



That’s ludicrous.



Embellishing men? I’m defending trinitarians from trinitarians.

No he hasn't. Prove it. I have not once referenced him in any way. That is your lie. Yes. I will call you a liar moving forward because you are dishonestly representing me.

You need to defend Unitarians from Unitarians. My fellow Trinitarians are welcome to criticize my arguments or methods. I'm not child that demands everyone agree with me. However, I'm not a novice standing upon the work of others. We can go anywhere you want to go with this.

 

[Matthias]

Who needs Origen.

Trinitarianism needs Origen.

We have

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

You think you do, but you don’t. You interpret Jewish scripture through the lens of pagan Greek philosophy. The result of that is a Frankenstein monster.

Origen didn't originate anything.

Church historians acknowledge that he did.

Who needs them? Right?

Goober down at Wally’s gas station doesn’t. He certain that he knows more and better about it than they do. (There pumps. No waiting.)

 

[Matthias]

He has never once witnessed my appeal to such men.

I don’t doubt that. What he has seen is you trashing trinitarian scholarship.

I don't appeal to other men to make my arguments for me. I'm not a lazy theologian living off the works of others. None of those listed are authorities on the subject.

Tear their guts out. That’s what the trinitarians who stand by and do nothing in response to your assault obn their scholars deserve it.

You know why your professors taught you such methods? They wanted your money. That is what seminaries often do. They are in it for the money. They teach you to rely upon them so they can make merchandize of you. How well did you pay them?

Damn trinitarian thieves.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Some day you’re going to be introduced to the authority whose Jewish monotheism your spiritual ancestors destroyed in their compromising with paganism. That’s the authority you should fear.

Calling "God down" now? You have been disarmed .... it obvious that is all you have left. I'm not fearful of your appeal. It shows your carnal attitude. I don't know what it is with you Messianic Unitarians that fills you with such joy with thoughts of God judging your enemies. Remember what Jesus said. He is better than your professors and God Incarnate. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked even though you obvious do.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Trinitarianism needs Origen.



You think you do, but you don’t. You interpret Jewish scripture through the lens of pagan Greek philosophy. The result of that is a Frankenstein monster.




Church historians acknowledge that he did.

Who needs them? Right?

Goober down at Wally’s gas station doesn’t. He certain that he knows more and better about it than they do. (There pumps. No waiting.)

The apostles were historians. I take pleasure in their Inspiration. Origen was well removed from the events he claimed to know. So were all these late "fathers". You're appealing to authority again. You should stop pretending to find authority in such men.

 

[Matthias]

No he hasn't. Prove it. I have not once referenced him in any way. That is your lie. Yes. I will call you a liar moving forward because you are dishonestly representing me.

You’ve jumped the shark.

You need to defend Unitarians from Unitarians.

When I see a unitarian saying about unitarian scholars saying what you say about trinitarian scholars, I will.

My fellow Trinitarians are welcome to criticize my arguments or methods

Yes. Indeed they are. And where are they?

I’m not child that demands everyone agree with me.

That’s good, because I agree with every little of what you believe. Even when I was a trinitarian myself.

However, I'm not a novice standing upon the work of others.

You’re denigrating them and their works.

We can go anywhere you want to go with this.

You’re doing a bang up job tearing down trinitarian scholarship. I wouldn’t if I was you, but I’m not you. Carry on.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I don’t doubt that. What he has seen is you trashing trinitarian scholarship.



Tear their guts out. That’s what the trinitarians who stand by and do nothing in response to your assault obn their scholars deserve it.



Damn trinitarian thieves.

So you think you are the first person to ever do such to me? I've been around it for more than 35 years now. How bad do you want to see me punished now?
You're lost without your argument surrounding Origen. It shows.

 

[Fellow Traveler]

We have an example of worship in Rev 19:10 that clearly establish the actions of a worshipper.

Rev 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Notice the writer is forbidden to "worship" him.....

Notice in contrast the actions of Christ....

Mar 7:24 And from thence he arose, and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon, and entered into an house, and would have no man know it: but he could not be hid.
Mar 7:25 For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:
Mar 7:26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
Mar 7:27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
Mar 7:28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.
Mar 7:29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.
Mar 7:30 And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.

Notice the women. A Gentile "dog".
Notice the actions. She fell at His feet.
Notice the challenging words of Christ. I'm not here for you....
Notice how she continue to humbly worship.....
Notice the prayer... Lord please help me.
Notice the answer..... An answer that many did not get that desperately desired it.

So we have Jesus being worshipped. We have Jesus receiving prayer. We have Jesus doing what only God can do......

Sure looks wonderful to me. Oh what a Savior.

Is there more....

Luk 7:37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
Luk 7:38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.

Weeping. Washing dirt feet with the teary hair of a desperate women.

If Jesus is just a "fellow servant" like the Christian Unitarian insist..... Then wouldn't Jesus had been wrong not to stop these people from worshipping Him. I know I sure do worship Him and you Christian Unitarians insist I've fabricated an idol.

I tell you what, I take Him any day over ANY of you. He is so wonderful to me.

Excellent post I agree with you. He is so wonderful to me also.

The last book of the Bible paints a picture of the end of time, when “a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages” will worship Jesus (Rev. 7:9).

 

[praise_yeshua]

You’ve jumped the shark.



When I see a unitarian saying about unitarian scholars saying what you say about trinitarian scholars, I will.



Yes. Indeed they are. And where are they?




That’s good, because I agree with every little of what you believe. Even when I was a trinitarian myself.



You’re denigrating them and their works.



You’re doing a bang up job tearing down trinitarian scholarship. I wouldn’t if I was you, but I’m not you. Carry on.

I dealt with the Origen and I don't appeal to the authority of men for anything. I once argued as you do now. Your carnality is showing. What harm have I caused by appealing to the inadequacies of men and the superiority of Scripture? You may dislike/hate this approach but I enjoy it. It honors God and abases men. That is way God likes it.

 

[Matthias]

Calling "God down" now?

No.

You have been disarmed .... it obvious that is all you have left.

I’m just getting started with trinitarian scholarship. I have enough material to keep us all entertained for years.

I'm not fearful of your appeal.

You demonstrated in this post that you don’t know what it is.

It shows your carnal attitude.

See my comment above.

I don't know what it is with you Messianic Unitarians that fills you with such joy with thoughts of God judging your enemies.

You sure don’t.

Remember what Jesus said.

Jesus of Nazareth. Jewish monotheist. You won’t acknowledge it but other trinitarians - scholars and non-scholars - have.

He is better than your professors and God Incarnate.

He is better than my professors and God Incarnate.

He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked even though you obvious do.

Not hardly.

 

[Matthias]

I dealt with the Origen ….

Yes, you did.

… and I don't appeal to the authority of men for anything.

Men should not appeal to you.

I once argued as you do now.

If you did then you’re an apostate.

Your carnality is showing.

You’re supposed to click your heels together three times when you say that.

What harm have I caused by appealing to the inadequacies of men and the superiority of Scripture?

Your appealing to Jewish scripture, not trinitarian scripture. It doesn’t work.

You may dislike/hate this approach but I enjoy it.

I have mixed feelings about your approach. There is a part of me that enjoys watching you kick trinitarian history to the curb. There is another part of me that detests what you’re doing to your history.

It honors God and abases men.

It dishonors those scholars who are dedicated in service to the Trinity. It dishonors the Messiah’s God.

That is way God likes it.

We’ll see.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No.



I’m just getting started with trinitarian scholarship. I have enough material to keep us all entertained for years.



You demonstrated in this post that you don’t know what it is.



See my comment above.



You sure don’t.



Jesus of Nazareth. Jewish monotheist. You won’t acknowledge it but other trinitarians - scholars and non-scholars - have.





He is better than my professors and God Incarnate.



Not hardly.

Did you forget you warned about God's judgement.

 

[Matthias]

Did you forget you warned about God's judgement.

I was remiss in not warning you about God’s judgement.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, you did.

Men should not appeal to you.

If you did then you’re an apostate.

You’re supposed to click your heels together three times when you say that.

Your appealing to Jewish scripture, not trinitarian scripture. It doesn’t work.

I have mixed feelings about your approach. There is a part of me that enjoys watching you kick trinitarian history to the curb. There is another part of me that detests what you’re doing to your history.

I mentioned Origen's Lies. I do use men's argument. You are trying to cast me a disciple of men. I'm not. You are. You've endless appealed to men as your authority. Sad.

It dishonors those scholars who are dedicated in service to the Trinity. It dishonors the Messiah’s God.

We’ll see.

When Paul wrote his letters...what man did he appeal to?

 

[civic]

He’s fed the Church poison and the Church has swallowed it down with delight.

Throw out everything Origen said in his “helpful suggestion”! Bye bye doctrine of the Trinity when you do.

Lots of ECFs fed them poison as did augustine with several heretical doctrines that he married to Christianity. That’s what makes any faith, religion, sect dangerous it mixing error with truth.