Worshipping The Son

[praise_yeshua]

I was remiss in not warning you about God’s judgement.

Nonsense. You were angry. As much as I hate false doctrine, our fellowman is in need of Grace.

 

[synergy]

That’s right. But what did the Church keep that came to it from Origen? That’s a rhetorical question.

There were many others that understood Trinitarianism.

The first century Didache directs Christians to "baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

Ignatius of Antioch similarly refers to all three persons around AD 110, exhorting obedience to "Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit".

Justin Martyr (AD 100 – c. 165) also writes, "in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit". Justin Martyr described that the Son and Father are the same "being" (ousia) and yet are also distinct faces (prosopa), anticipating the three persons (hypostases) that come with Tertullian and later authors.

The first defense of the doctrine of the Trinity was by Tertullian, who was born around 150–160 AD, explicitly "defined" the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

All this before Origen ever arrived on the scene.

You really didn’t think I would leave them out, did you? @praise_yeshua doesn’t want or need them. You‘ve seen what he is saying about them. Have you spoken with him privately about it? Because you sure haven’t publicly, at least not in this thread.

I’ve been at this all day. You havenm’t brought them up, and it’s going to take me a while to do it. Especially with everything else I have going on away from the forum.

I just brought up 3 more Church Fathers and the Didache. You've got your work cut out for you.

And will it even matter?

They borrowed from paganism! You heard it straight from their lips. Does that bother you?

Greek Byzantine beliefs abhored paganism. They even tossed out the writing of Aristotle which the Muslims discovered and only then were they brought into the west. Are you sure you understand Eastern Roman Empire History?

It was a theological equivalent of “Soylent Green is people!” moment

Huh?

The response of trinitarians? Ignore it.

We ignore anything that's anti-Biblical like Unitarianism.

Jesus Christ isn’t going to ignore it. You can write it down and take it to the bank.

Not ignore what? The Unitarian misrepresentation of the Uncreated Word of God made flesh?

What will he do about it? I don’t know. We’ll leave it in his hands, right where it belongs.

I agree.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Lots of ECFs fed them poison as did augustine with several heretical doctrines that he married to Christianity. That’s what makes any faith, religion, sect dangerous it mixing error with truth.

I've asked him to make a simple argument based upon his view of the rank of Christ. He has refused to do it. You would think he could easily do such given his "training".

 

[civic]

I've asked him to make a simple argument based upon his view of the rank of Christ. He has refused to do it. You would think he could easily do such given his "training".

That road never ends well for the unitarian position.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That road never ends well for the unitarian position.

Exactly. They avoid it like COVID.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@synergy @civic @Matthias

I grew tried of my source is better than your source and my theologian is better than your theologian methods/arguments a very long time ago. We can agree upon the authority of the Scriptures. We can agree upon the necessity of reason. That should be the foundation of most any theological discussion.

 

[civic]

@synergy @civic @Matthias

I grew tried of my source is better than your source and my theologian is better than your theologian methods/arguments a very long time ago. We can agree upon the authority of the Scriptures. We can agree upon the necessity of reason. That should be the foundation of most any theological discussion.

Yes the appeal to authority fallacy gets boring. And anyone can find a source to support them. Exegeting scripture is another story. I do both depending on the topic to start a discussion.

 

[synergy]

@synergy @civic @Matthias

I grew tried of my source is better than your source and my theologian is better than your theologian methods/arguments a very long time ago. We can agree upon the authority of the Scriptures. We can agree upon the necessity of reason. That should be the foundation of most any theological discussion.

I totally agree. I just wanted to show @Matthias that he is wrong not only Biblically but also historically. He has a very warped understanding of the Eastern Roman Empire which gave rise to Christology and Trinitarianism and incinerated Arianism.

 

[Matthias]

I mentioned Origen's Lies. I do use men's argument. You are trying to cast me a disciple of men. I'm not. You are. You've endless appealed to men as your authority. Sad.

A question for you and other trinitarians: Can the doctrine odd the Trinity stand without the concept of eternal generation

When Paul wrote his letters...what man did he appeal to?

The man Messiah Jesus.

 

[Matthias]

Lots of ECFs fed them poison as did augustine with several heretical doctrines that he married to Christianity. That’s what makes any faith, religion, sect dangerous it mixing error with truth.

Let’s examine one of them: Origen's major contribution - the concept of eternal generation.

Do you embrace it or reject it?

Can the doctrine of the Trinity stand without it?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I totally agree. I just wanted to show @Matthias that he is wrong not only Biblically but also historically. He has a very warped understanding of the Eastern Roman Empire which gave rise to Christology and Trinitarianism and incinerated Arianism.

I enjoy your appeals to facts and circumstances. Keep it coming.

 

[civic]

Let’s examine one of them: Origen's major contribution - the concept of eternal generation.

Do you embrace it or reject it?

Can the doctrine of the Trinity stand without it?

Define it and I’ll let you know

 

[praise_yeshua]

A question for you and other trinitarians: Can the doctrine odd the Trinity stand without the concept of eternal generation




The man Messiah Jesus.

Do the same. Appeal to the authority of Christ. I will agree with you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes the appeal to authority fallacy gets boring. And anyone can find a source to support them. Exegeting scripture is another story. I do both depending on the topic to start a discussion.

Absolutely. I enjoy reading your posts. You know where the "honey" is....

 

[Matthias]

Yes the appeal to authority fallacy gets boring.

I don’t accept the authority of any of your theologians, nor do I appeal to it. However, I do point out what your theologians have done.

And anyone can find a source to support them.

The sources I find to support me are trinitarian.

Exegeting scripture is another story. I do both depending on the topic to start a discussion.

 

[Matthias]

I totally agree. I just wanted to show @Matthias that he is wrong not only Biblically but also historically.

Thanks. I’m not wrong. The trinittarian sources I’m providing demonstrate that.

He has a very warped understanding of the Eastern Roman Empire which gave rise to Christology and Trinitarianism and incinerated Arianism.

Have we discussed either of those? No, we haven’t.

 

[Matthias]

Do the same. Appeal to the authority of Christ. I will agree with you.

There is no God besides the Messiah’s God. Do you agree with that?

 

[Matthias]

Define it and I’ll let you know

You don’t know what the doctrine of eternal generation is?

 

[praise_yeshua]

You don’t know what the doctrine of eternal generation is?

Why not simply share your definition? Again. Put some "skin in the game" here.

 

[Matthias]

The apostles were historians. I take pleasure in their Inspiration.

The apostles were, like the Messiah, Jewish monotheists.

Origen was well removed from the events he claimed to know. So were all these late "fathers". You're appealing to authority again. You should stop pretending to find authority in such men.

I’m directing your attention to the people who developed the doctrine of the Trinity.