No scripture?
"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
- Start date
No scripture?
Are you familiar with the biblical term -
The obedience of faith.
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26
The obedience of faith is a biblical term.
Faith alone is a man made term.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Cyrus
Active Member
James 2:24 states that "It's by faith alone" And this is the correct interpretation.
James is not arguing that faith doesn't matter. And he is not denying that through faith alone we are saved by God's grace. He is simply noting that the "faith which saves" is something more than an opinion. Instead, James is arguing for exactly what Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:10: That the God who saved us by His grace through faith—and not in any sense through works—planned all along for His believing children to do good works, "that we should walk in them." Once we are saved. That's what true believers do.
James is not arguing that faith doesn't matter. And he is not denying that through faith alone we are saved by God's grace. He is simply noting that the "faith which saves" is something more than an opinion. Instead, James is arguing for exactly what Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:10: That the God who saved us by His grace through faith—and not in any sense through works—planned all along for His believing children to do good works, "that we should walk in them." Once we are saved. That's what true believers do.
Paul presents the truth of justification by faith alone as the crucial and initial element in the sinner’s redemptive relationship with God through Jesus Christ in Titus 3:4–8.
He also warns his converts of the danger of accepting another gospel, a gospel of justification that includes works as well as grace, which is not the gospel.
The essence of Paul’s teaching on the subject is presented in Romans 3:21–26.
He also warns his converts of the danger of accepting another gospel, a gospel of justification that includes works as well as grace, which is not the gospel.
The essence of Paul’s teaching on the subject is presented in Romans 3:21–26.
Seabass
Active Member
1)
God COMMANDED Noah to build the ark, hence Noah had no choice in the matter if he wanted to be saved from the flood. He MUST build the ark to receive God's gift of salvation from the flood. Not building the ark would have been rejecting God's gracioue gift. We see from the verses you posted that Noah's faith included obedience in building the ark as God commanded. Had Noah not obeyed God in building the ark but just had 'faith only' God would save him, then he would not been saved from the flood but drowned and died with all the unrighteous people.
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2)
those who have allowed themselves to think faith only saves are the one who refuse to see the difference between obedience and works of merit. As long as people refuse to see this distinction they will never have a correct understanding of NT salvation. The Catholics went to one extreme with their Treasury of merit and selling of indulgences. Yet Reformers went in the opposite extreme with faith onlyism. The NT shows obedience is the separating line between the saved and lost (Heb 5:9; 2 Thess 1:8) and obedience is not a work of merit and is the opposite of faith only.
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3)
those then that take Rom 11:6 OUT OF CONTEXT and claim Paul is eliminating all works, including obedience to God, are creating massive contradictions within the book of Romans itself:
a) Paul begins and ends his great epistle of Romans with obedience of faith (Rom 1:5; Rom 16:28) but then contradicts that in Rom 11:6 by saying one does not have to have an OBEDIENT faith?
b) Paul says each one will be either saved or lost (Rom 6:16)..lost by serving "sin unto death" or saved by "serving obedience UNTO righteousness" but then contradicts this in Rom 11:6 that one does no works at all unto righteousness, no obedience unto righteousbess?
c) Paul said those Romans had obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine being then made free from sin (justified) but then contradicts that in Rom 11:6 that one does nothing, no works at all to be made free from sin?
d) Paul required repentance (Rom 2:4-5) confession (Rom 10:10) and baptism (Rom 6:3-5) to be saved but contradicts that in Rom 11:6 by saying do nothing to be saved, no obedience in repenting confessing or being baptized?
e) Paul lamented that his brethren in the flesh, the Jews, were lost. In Rom 10:3 we see they were lost because they were going about to establish their OWN righteousness rather than submit (obey) the righteousness of GOD. But Paul contradicts this in Rom 11:6 by saying the Jews do not have to obey God's righteousness to be saved?
Furthermore in Rom 10:3 Paul mentions two DIFFERENT kinds of works;
1) establishing their OWN righteousness
2) submitting to GOD's righteousness.
Those Jews were lost because they were doing work #1 in doing their OWN traditions rather then doing work #2 submitting to GOD's righteousness. Here we have two different kinds of works, one kind of work that did not save the Jew and a different kind of work that could save the Jew. Hence all works are not alike, the Bible nowhere ever eliminates obedience to God from being saved.
Those Jews in Rom 10 were lost for they would not submit to God's righteousness, they would not believe, not confess (Rom 10:9-10) they did not 'obey the gospel' (Rom 10:16) but Paul contradicts this in Rom 11:6 that the Jew could be saved without submitting to God's righteousness, without believing with the heart, without confessing with the moth, without obeying the gospel. (This would also contradict Paul in 2 Thess 1:8.)
f) it becomes evident that in Rom 11:6 Paul is NOT contrasting grace from obedience but contrasting grace from works of merit. If one could live a perfectly sinless life then his reward would not be of grace but would be owed to him (Rom 4:4). If Abraham or David could have kept the OT law perfectly sinless then they would have merited their reward, it would not be of grace. But since both sinned their reward was by grace through an OBEDIENT faith. Hence grace is not by works of merit but through obedience to God's will.
g) IN THE CONTEXT of Rom 11:6 we see those that were of God in OT times were those who OBEYED God by not bowing to Baal and in the present (gospel dispensation) time those that obeyed the gospel (2 Thess 1:8) is by election of grace.
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Seabass
Active Member
The Spirit does not cause, force men to obey against their will. The Spirit gives instructions in His word on how men can be saved and those men that choose to obey those instructions will be saved while those that choose not will be lost.
Peter says 'seeing you have purified your souls" shows there is a sense in which man has a role in his own salvation in "saving yourselves (Acts 2:40). Man cannot save himself by himself, man cannot purify his own soul by himself. BUt man must hear/read the Spirit's instructions in His word the Bible and by obeying those instructions man then is saved/has his soul purified. Hence man saves himself/purifies his soul by choosing to obey the SPirit's instructions in his word.
You are drowning and I throw you a lifeline and yelled to you "grab the lifeline and save yourself".
---you would not save yourself by yourself, I played a role in your salvation by throwing you a lifeline. You played a role in your own salvation by heeding my instructions to grab the lifeline. With no lifeline you would have drown.
Likewise the Spirit gave man a lifeline, his word, the gospel of Christ that instructs man to save yourself/purify your soul by following those instructions. But man does not save himself by himself but saves himself by grabbing the lifeline the Spirit gave, by obeying the gospel the Spirit gave to man (2 Thess 1:8). Hence the Spirt and man play a role in mans' salvation..no gospel given by the SPirit man could not possibly be saved, so it takes the gospel given to man by the Spirit and man's choosing to obey the gospel for man to be saved.
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civic
Active Member
Amen !
Seabass
Active Member
Eze 36:28
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Calvinist will quote Eze 36:28 but not Eze 18:31. Combining both verses it becomes evident that both God and man have a role in man's salvation.
In Eze 36:31 the word "give" is used in an idiomatic sense, that God would 'give' man what was necessary in having a new heart and spirit. This verse is a foreshadow of Christ coming to the world with His gospel. hence God 'gave' man the gospel that can produce a new heart and spirit but it takes man's obedience to this gospel God gave for man to have this new heart and spirit.
From Rom 1:16 this gospel God 'gave' man was to first go to the Jew then to the Gentile. In Acts 2 we have the gospel first going to the Jew but not every single Jew was universally, unconditionally given a new heart and spirit. Only those Jews who heard the gospel God 'gave" (Rom 10:17) believed and obeyed it by repenting and being baptized had their sins remitting receiving a new heart and spirit.
Likewise for the Gentiles, God would 'give' the Gntiles to Christ as an inheritance (Psa 2:8) but we see in Acts 10 when the gospel first went to the Gentiles but not every single Gentile was universally, unconditionally given a new heart and spirit. Only those Gentiles that heard the gospel God gave as preached by Peter and obeyed it by being baptized were the one to be given a new heart and spirit.
Without God 'giving' man the gospel, salvation would be impossible for both Jew and Gentile, impossible for either Jew or Gentile to have a new heart or spirit. Without obedience to that gospel God 'gave' (2 Thess 1:8) it is impossible for Jew or Gentile to have a new heart or spirit.
brightfame52
Active Member
One obeys after they are saved by the work of the Spirit who causes the obedience 1 Pet 1:2,22
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
You want man to take credit for the Spirits role in Salvation
charismaticlady
Active Member
Yes, it is Jesus that is individually the Author and Finisher of our faith.
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brightfame52
Active Member
@Seabass
Those pertain to Gods Covenant Elect People Israel, not all mankind. Ezk 18 is Israel responsibility under the Old Covenant Law, now if you want to put yourself under that law covenant, go right ahead. You will perish for sure,
But a New Covenant is going to be established for Israel elect, and God is do all the work for them and in them, and cause their obedience like I already told you. Ezk 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
That corresponds to what I showed you 1 Pet 1:2
2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
You really just condemned yourself by posting them verses. And you conveniently left out Ezk 36:27
You putting yourself under a law covenant, good luck with that in the day of Judgment.
Those pertain to Gods Covenant Elect People Israel, not all mankind. Ezk 18 is Israel responsibility under the Old Covenant Law, now if you want to put yourself under that law covenant, go right ahead. You will perish for sure,
But a New Covenant is going to be established for Israel elect, and God is do all the work for them and in them, and cause their obedience like I already told you. Ezk 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
That corresponds to what I showed you 1 Pet 1:2
2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
You really just condemned yourself by posting them verses. And you conveniently left out Ezk 36:27
You putting yourself under a law covenant, good luck with that in the day of Judgment.
What a wonderful representation of Scriptures to battle the popular tradition of selecting one or two sentences from the Bible, separating them from the rest of the bible, then creating doctrine by taking them out of the Context it was meant to represent.
I come to the same conclusion as you, but through a slightly different understanding. An understanding that considers more of the Law and Prophets in order to understand the "Israelite" Paul was speaking to, which was the subject of this Epistle. (Rom. 11:6) But in the end, we both came to the same truth. Please allow me to share how I came to the same conclusion.
As in other places, Paul is exposing the tradition of the Pharisees, the mainstream (God of Abraham promoting) religion of that time, to promote justification/remission of sins, "By the Works of the Law" of their version of the Old Priesthood. (Levitical Priesthood as the Hebrews Author calls it). The remission of sins came through this Priesthood, before the Prophesied High Priest of God should come. And this Priesthood Law was to be in effect "Till this Seed came", as also prophesied.
But the Pharisees had created a business and a complete religion centered around their version of this priesthood which had caused men to go astray for centuries. Jesus spoke of this "Teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of men", and "Full well you reject the commandments of God to keep your own traditions". Stephen also exposed this in them, and they killed him for it as well. You can read about it all over the Holy Scriptures, but Isaiah Chapter 1 is the perfect place to read, in order to understand what Paul was dealing with through Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, etc.
Is. 1: 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. 3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the *** his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
This describes for me the Pharisees and rebellious Jews who persecuted the Church of God, while "Professing to know God" in Jesus and Paul's Time. A religion which rejected God's Judgments and righteousness, and went about establishing their own. A religion which rejected the Statutes of God and created their own high days in worship of images of God in the likeness of men. The reject God's Sabbaths, polluting them and even creating their own.
And yet every week they would come to their man-made shrines of worship/Synagogues, with their windows wide open singing prayers and bells a ringing to he heard of men, and they offer the Blood of an innocent, unblemished being, as per the Law, to justify them of their willful rejection of God's judgments and commandments.
10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. 14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
Truly a man is not justified by "Works of the Law". But by God's Grace, patience, tender mercies and long suffering, that we might "Yield ourselves" to HIM, and our bodies as instruments of righteousness unto Him.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 "If ye be" willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
This is the Gospel of the Christ "of the Bible".
Rom. 2: 7 To them who by "patient continuance" in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
What a great and important topic. Good for you Seabass.
Abraham's and Caleb's too.
Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
God's definition of His New Covenant, and your new covenant are two completely different covenants.
If you understood what Paul meant when he said, 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. You wouldn't be using Ez. 36 to make void Ez. 18.
If you knew what EZ. 37 teaches, you would understand when it is that God places a New Heart in these Israelites of Ez. 36.
Ez. 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
After HE raises them from the grave they are not dwelling in.
Rom. 11: 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise "in your own conceits"; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Ez. 36,37 speaks to the Examples God had written for our admonition. That died in blindness "For our admonition". God is a Just God, and HE will raise them from the dead, and given their fair chance at salvation. The Feast of the Christ "of the Bible", "The Last great Day" prophesies of this event that has yet to be fulfilled.
DavidTree
Active Member
SHALOM and Thank You
Water is Wet = We both agree on this as it is what we call a "no-brainer"
Obedience is NOT the opposite of "faith only"
Let's not swing from one extreme to another = which i believe is the point you are seeking to emphasize.
Faith precedes obedience, obedience follows faith, faith leads us into obedience.
GRACE is the Glue that holds together faith and obedience.
Let's look at this again without adding or taking away = Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,
a.) For it is by GRACE
b.) you have been saved thru FAITH
c.) this is NOT from yourselves
d.) it is the GIFT of God
Do you SEE the Alpha and the Omega in Ephesians 2:8
NEXT = verse 9 = not by works, so that no one can boast
a.) not of works
b.) no one can boast
NEXT = verse 10 = we are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared for us to walk in.
a.) we are God's workmanship
b.) (we have been) created in Christ Jesus to do good works
c.) Which God prepared for us to walk in
Do you SEE the Alpha and the Omega in Ephesians 2:10
Do you SEE how the Alpha begins in verse 8 and the Omega ends in verse 10
Therefore we have God's Grace thru Faith saving Noah in verse 8
God's provision in verse 9 which is the "work" that Noah was commanded to do = credit to @Seabass = obedience
God's Protection in verse 10 = God SHUT the Door of the ARK = Sealed for the Day of Redemption
Notice between vesrse 8 and verse 10 is v9 whereby God STRESSES that our SALVATION is not thru works
Seabass, you are correct with obedience as a part of the effectual working power of the Holy Spirit in us to Obey
SHALOM and Thank You my Brother in CHRIST, who is SAVED by Grace thru Faith whereby we delight in obedience
I have to go now and then will look at Romans and SEE if the SAME Truth is expounded by the SAME Author
brightfame52
Active Member
Lol you all over the place.
DavidTree
Active Member
P.S> - i SEE and AGREE with you and the Scriptures of the necessity of "obedience".
This "obedience" is very much SEEN in the Scriptures and it is ALWAYS placed between the Alpha and the Omega
No Romans 6 is a vague scripture reference.
Here is what a scripture looks like.
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12
DavidTree
Active Member
PART 2 - Romans 11:6
You stated that Romans 11:6 is "taken out of context"
Let us read it together it in context.
I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars. I am the only one left, and they are seeking my life as well”?
And what was the divine reply to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
PERFECT Context with Elijah being displayed as the Example of Grace over works/religion.
@Seabass, you are 100% correct in that Elijah did not bow the knee to Baal = Obedience
Obedience is a KEY ingredient in our walk with GOD which comes after Grace
Furthermore, Elijah needed more Grace to fulfill his obedience.
Let us therefore come boldly to the Throne of Grace, that we may obtain mercy and
find grace to help in time of need.
SHALOM my Brother in Christ Seabass
