No scripture?
"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
- Start date
No scripture?
Are you familiar with the biblical term -
The obedience of faith.
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26
The obedience of faith is a biblical term.
Faith alone is a man made term.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Cyrus
Active Member
James 2:24 states that "It's by faith alone" And this is the correct interpretation.
James is not arguing that faith doesn't matter. And he is not denying that through faith alone we are saved by God's grace. He is simply noting that the "faith which saves" is something more than an opinion. Instead, James is arguing for exactly what Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:10: That the God who saved us by His grace through faith—and not in any sense through works—planned all along for His believing children to do good works, "that we should walk in them." Once we are saved. That's what true believers do.
James is not arguing that faith doesn't matter. And he is not denying that through faith alone we are saved by God's grace. He is simply noting that the "faith which saves" is something more than an opinion. Instead, James is arguing for exactly what Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:10: That the God who saved us by His grace through faith—and not in any sense through works—planned all along for His believing children to do good works, "that we should walk in them." Once we are saved. That's what true believers do.
Paul presents the truth of justification by faith alone as the crucial and initial element in the sinner’s redemptive relationship with God through Jesus Christ in Titus 3:4–8.
He also warns his converts of the danger of accepting another gospel, a gospel of justification that includes works as well as grace, which is not the gospel.
The essence of Paul’s teaching on the subject is presented in Romans 3:21–26.
He also warns his converts of the danger of accepting another gospel, a gospel of justification that includes works as well as grace, which is not the gospel.
The essence of Paul’s teaching on the subject is presented in Romans 3:21–26.
Seabass
Active Member
1)
God COMMANDED Noah to build the ark, hence Noah had no choice in the matter if he wanted to be saved from the flood. He MUST build the ark to receive God's gift of salvation from the flood. Not building the ark would have been rejecting God's gracioue gift. We see from the verses you posted that Noah's faith included obedience in building the ark as God commanded. Had Noah not obeyed God in building the ark but just had 'faith only' God would save him, then he would not been saved from the flood but drowned and died with all the unrighteous people.
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2)
those who have allowed themselves to think faith only saves are the one who refuse to see the difference between obedience and works of merit. As long as people refuse to see this distinction they will never have a correct understanding of NT salvation. The Catholics went to one extreme with their Treasury of merit and selling of indulgences. Yet Reformers went in the opposite extreme with faith onlyism. The NT shows obedience is the separating line between the saved and lost (Heb 5:9; 2 Thess 1:8) and obedience is not a work of merit and is the opposite of faith only.
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3)
those then that take Rom 11:6 OUT OF CONTEXT and claim Paul is eliminating all works, including obedience to God, are creating massive contradictions within the book of Romans itself:
a) Paul begins and ends his great epistle of Romans with obedience of faith (Rom 1:5; Rom 16:28) but then contradicts that in Rom 11:6 by saying one does not have to have an OBEDIENT faith?
b) Paul says each one will be either saved or lost (Rom 6:16)..lost by serving "sin unto death" or saved by "serving obedience UNTO righteousness" but then contradicts this in Rom 11:6 that one does no works at all unto righteousness, no obedience unto righteousbess?
c) Paul said those Romans had obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine being then made free from sin (justified) but then contradicts that in Rom 11:6 that one does nothing, no works at all to be made free from sin?
d) Paul required repentance (Rom 2:4-5) confession (Rom 10:10) and baptism (Rom 6:3-5) to be saved but contradicts that in Rom 11:6 by saying do nothing to be saved, no obedience in repenting confessing or being baptized?
e) Paul lamented that his brethren in the flesh, the Jews, were lost. In Rom 10:3 we see they were lost because they were going about to establish their OWN righteousness rather than submit (obey) the righteousness of GOD. But Paul contradicts this in Rom 11:6 by saying the Jews do not have to obey God's righteousness to be saved?
Furthermore in Rom 10:3 Paul mentions two DIFFERENT kinds of works;
1) establishing their OWN righteousness
2) submitting to GOD's righteousness.
Those Jews were lost because they were doing work #1 in doing their OWN traditions rather then doing work #2 submitting to GOD's righteousness. Here we have two different kinds of works, one kind of work that did not save the Jew and a different kind of work that could save the Jew. Hence all works are not alike, the Bible nowhere ever eliminates obedience to God from being saved.
Those Jews in Rom 10 were lost for they would not submit to God's righteousness, they would not believe, not confess (Rom 10:9-10) they did not 'obey the gospel' (Rom 10:16) but Paul contradicts this in Rom 11:6 that the Jew could be saved without submitting to God's righteousness, without believing with the heart, without confessing with the moth, without obeying the gospel. (This would also contradict Paul in 2 Thess 1:8.)
f) it becomes evident that in Rom 11:6 Paul is NOT contrasting grace from obedience but contrasting grace from works of merit. If one could live a perfectly sinless life then his reward would not be of grace but would be owed to him (Rom 4:4). If Abraham or David could have kept the OT law perfectly sinless then they would have merited their reward, it would not be of grace. But since both sinned their reward was by grace through an OBEDIENT faith. Hence grace is not by works of merit but through obedience to God's will.
g) IN THE CONTEXT of Rom 11:6 we see those that were of God in OT times were those who OBEYED God by not bowing to Baal and in the present (gospel dispensation) time those that obeyed the gospel (2 Thess 1:8) is by election of grace.
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Seabass
Active Member
The Spirit does not cause, force men to obey against their will. The Spirit gives instructions in word on how men can be saved and those men that choose to obey those instructions will be saved while those that choose not will be lost.
Peter says 'seeing you have purified your souls" shows there is a sense in which man has a role in his own salvation in "saving yourselves (Acts 2:40). Man cannot save himself by himself, man cannot purify his own soul by himself. BUt man must hear/read the Spirit's instructions in His word the Bible and by obeying those instructions man then is saved/has his soul purified. Hence man saves himself/purifies his soul by choosing to obey the SPirit's instructions in his word.
You are drowning and I throw you a lifeline and yelled to you "grab the lifeline and save yourself".
---you would not save yourself by yourself, I played a role in your salvation by throwing you a lifeline. You played a role in your own salvation by heeding my instructions to grab the lifeline. With no lifeline you would have drown.
Like wise the Spirit gave man a lifeline, his word, the gospel of Christ that instructs man to save yourself/ourifit your soul by following those instructions. But man does not save himself by himself by saves himself by grabbing the lifeline the Spirit gave, by obeying the gospel the Spirit gave to man (2 Thess 1:8). Hence the Spirt and man play a role in mans' salvation..no gospel given by the SPirit man could not possibly be saved, so it takes the gospel given to man by the Spirit and man's choosing to obey the gospel for man to be saved.
civic
Active Member
Amen !
