"Works Salvation"

[Titus]

But what about murder. Can the definition missing the mark encompass it? No! The sin of murder is not just missing the mark, it is true lawlessness

, Eternally Grateful is correct.

I see it differently, Sin - the greek word- literally means to miss the mark

Correct.

Charismaticlady,
All sin is lawlessness.
All sin is missing the mark.
There is no such sin that doesnt miss the mark.
There is no such sin that is not lawlessness.

Another way of saying lawlessness is to say transgression of Gods law,
1John 3:4,
- Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law
for sin  is the transgression of the law

John in the verse I'm using said,
For sin  is lawlessness

Same as Jesus' use of the word iniquity/lawlessness
Matthew 7:23,
- and then will I profess unto them I never knew you depart from Me ye that work lawlessness.

Heres an English Bible I do not care for but in this passage they rightly translated,

- but I will reply I never knew you get away from Me, you who break Gods laws, NLT

The Greek word used here is anomia. Here are diferent English words used in translation:
Lawlessness
Iniquity
Transgression

Interesting the word anomia which is lawless works or violation of Gods law also can be referred to as wickedness.

So the wicked are wicked because they do lawless works.
Violating the commandments in the new testament law of Christ is wickedness.

And there are a great many that teach it is not essential for ones salvation to work the commandments of God.
So in their ignorance they are teaching a false gospel of lawless wickedness.
They deny ALL works.
They teach a gospel of faith alone and no works for salvation which is completely unbiblical.

 

[Titus]

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

Perfect passage.

 

[DavidTree]

This is DavidTrees vain attempt to deny he is teaching me rather than God directly,

I follow the teachings of Christ and when I share those teachings with others I'm sharing my gospel which is Christ's gospel.
Exactly like Paul,
Romans 16:25,
- now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel

Paul is teaching others when he shares the teachings of Christ just as you struggling to do with me.

I called DavidTree out on his hypocrisy by showing that he is a man teaching me.
Now he claims he is not teaching me.

Who believes on here we are not teaching others?
David's claim is in desperation.

JESUS calls you out on your hypocrisy = claiming to know truth while arguing against the Truth

Your hypocrisy is your making false claims and ignoring what i posted from God = CLEAR as DAY from Acts chapter 2

From my Post #2,219 = You intentionally avoid this because it exposes you willful error.

1.) It begins with God = the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
2.) God prepares the time, the place, the audience for fulfillment of Prophecy
3.) By the power of the Holy Spirit Peter preaches
4.) Some "hear the words of God" = John 6:43-45
5.) others do not hear = John 6:43-45
6.) those who are Called by the Father unto Christ respond/obey the Call/Message
7) It finishes with God = HE added to His Church "such as should be saved"

Before the Apostle Peter began speaking by the Power of the Holy Spirit, God had already prepared the hearts of those who would PREACH the Gospel AND those who would hear His Voice.

1 - God first,
2 - God prepares,
3 - God orchestrates/guides/moves upon men's hearts = Jeremiah 10:23
O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself;
It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.

4 - this Began with Adam = "God said to Adam........"
5 - this continued with Abel and all whom God Calls
6 - Man preaches by and thru that which God first spoke
7 - God grants man Salvation and repentance according to His Will
8 - Man receives from Above = Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven = Salvation Begins in Heaven

"Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures."

The "word of Truth" began in Genesis chapter 1

Question for you @Titus : Is the word of Truth passed on purely from man to man or from the Holy Spirit to man and then to man???

 

[charismaticlady]

The Torah imposes a penalty of death for a range of misdeeds. These include ritual infractions, such as violating the Sabbath, worshiping idols and cursing God; sexual sins, including incest, adultery, anal sex between men and bestiality; and various criminal acts, including murder, kidnapping and giving false testimony in a capital case. In one particularly challenging biblical passage (Deuteronomy 18-21), the Torah imposes a penalty of death by stoning in the case of a “wayward son” who does not heed his parents’ discipline. (The Talmud states that there never actually was a wayward son nor will there ever be one and that the Torah mentions it merely so it should be studied.)

Stoning is the most common method of execution described in the Torah, prescribed not only in the case of the rebellious child, but also for murder, blasphemy, breaking the Sabbath and idolatry. The Torah specifies that a person may be put to death only on the testimony of two witnesses — never by one alone — and that the witnesses who testified must be the first to lay their hands on the accused to kill him. Death by fire is mandated for a number of sexual sins, mainly various forms of incest.

The Death Penalty in Jewish Tradition | My Jewish Learning

Judaism and Death Penalty. About Jewish Death and Mourning. Jewish Bereavement. Jewish Lifecycle

www.myjewishlearning.com

Yes, all of these are examples of lawlessness, the first type of sin and the most deadly that Jesus takes away from our nature. When born again we no longer have a nature tempted by these sins. I am speaking to those of us who have been born again of the Spirit of Christ.

If anyone going to church and believing they are a saved Christian who are doing any of those evils that Jesus has not fulfilled in Himself, they need to cry out to God to save them and take away Satan's desire in them to commit these abominations. Repentance is NOT just us "turning away" from these sins, only to fail to overcome, but us recognizing the desire to commit these is stronger than we are, and us crying out to Jesus to save us from those desires that lead to spiritual death.

 

[charismaticlady]

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

An unsaved person has both types of sins in them. Notice "trespasses" are separate from "sins." Thank you for this verse to demonstrate that there are more than just one level of transgressions. I'll try to remember the text address. Easy - 2:1

 

[charismaticlady]

We are not made righteous; rather we are reckoned with the righteousness of God. Righteousness is an imputed attribute.

Yes we are. It is not by us, but only by the power of Jesus. In the first century with the apostles, this doctrine and the truth was Jesus literally "taking away." As you have just demonstrated, today, since the Reformation, the belief has Jesus merely covering us by His blood, so the Father cannot see our sin we still have. That second belief is blasphemy.

Jim, keep your eyes and ears open to this distinct difference being preached in your hearing. We are freed from sin, it is not just covered up. No sin inside will enter heaven - only righteous (1 John 3:7) and holy (2 Peter 1:5-11 never stumbling).

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Romans 6. 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

I explained what this means. It means physical death.

salvation is not context here

But I don't, so I know it is possible to not have any desire to sin against the commandments of God.

I do too. When we are serving God. Loving our neighbors and seeking after the things of the spirit.

but do we do this 24/7. if we say we do. I am worried we may not see the truth in ourselves. Which is pretty much what John said

As I said, that was not true for the first 30 years of my life, but I came to an epiphany. Repentance is not us turning away from sin in our own power.

Its not turning from sin at all in the context of salvation. You can't turn from sin.. before your saved you can not even understand what all possible sins are to even contemplate turning. Plus, your in your flesh. hence yuo have to fill that void left from the separation caused by the fall.

We are not strong enough to succeed because of the strong pull from the sin in our nature. Repentance is giving up trying, and turning our sin over to Jesus to take away the desire out of our nature and making us a new creature.

Again, your focused on sin. Lets focus on the fall.

you were dead in tresspasses and sins.

God made you alive.

How did he do this?

And He did. EG, it was so supernatural I literally felt the heavy darkness of sin lift out of me and made me feel light as a feather, and I was free. And in its place was the divine nature of God. Every moment of every day no matter what I am doing, I'm thinking the thoughts God puts in my mind. It is true He gives us the mind of Christ. 1 Cor. 2:16

EG, my friend you must read Romans 7 in context with Romans 8, and also with the truth that verses 1-6 is us after being freed from the law and "the flesh" described in 14 through 25 that was us IN the Law and still in the flesh, because we still sinned. When Paul was a Pharisee he was keeping the law in his mind, but his nature pulled in the other direction. Jesus stopped that roller-coaster ride of the devil by removing the carnality of sin from our nature. Read what is happening in the sentences, not the present tense misinterpreted by our "western" mindset. The apostles were eastern, not western so read each sentence as ask yourself is this before or after being cleansed of all unrighteousness and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

I haven't read your whole response, but would like you to read this bit first. I shouldn't have written such a long post. Sorry!

as for romans 7. paul spoke in present tense. he also spoke of the battle between the flesh and spirit. You must realise. there was no spirit before Paul was saved. So paul could not have a battle of the 2..

Nor could paul serve God in the spirit before he was saved.

so it could not be before as some insist. they are in error

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Then how can He guide our conscience if He is quenched.

why are we warned not the quench the spirit. by which we have been sealed unto the day of redemption. If it was not possible

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

what do you think we do that grieves the HS.. we quench him, or we do not follow him

Quenching the Holy Spirit is apostasy. No, He is our identity now. If we are in control, then we are not born again of the Spirit.

The same HS we are sealed until the day of redemption.

You can quench him, you can not lose him

EG, there is a huge difference between our flesh and who we are when born again of the Spirit. Just belief in Jesus as our Savior is not enough. We must be baptized with the Holy Spirit. The crucifixion is once. Sin in our nature is killed. We are resurrected righteous.

yes.. We are new creatures. BUT THE FLESH IS STILL THERE that is why we are warned all over the NT to not feed its lusts..

if it were not possible. no need to warn

I was resurrected. I started out as a babe, I had to learn

we are not born again super human mature believers. we are born as babes are we not?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

But what about murder. Can the definition missing the mark encompass it?

Moses committed murder
King David committed rape adultery and murder.

did they miss the park? Yes

But knowing to do good and not doing it.. This misses the mark also.

if I commit this sin, and do not commit murder. I am still as guilty as the one who committed murder

No! The sin of murder is not just missing the mark, it is true lawlessness.

all sin is lawlessness. not just murder.. and all sins cause us to miss the mark

Forgetting to call your mother when you said you would is missing the mark.

as is murder.

God showed us the difference in the Old Testament. He let us offer a sacrifice for the lesser sin, but no sin for a greater sin. Those were killed!

Numbers 15:22-36

The day of atonement was for all sin..

lets not water down the law to lesser or greater sins

in society there are greater sins.

In Gods eyes as far as our spiritual life goes. Adam ate a peace of fruit and caused the fall of mankind.

I would think you would see this is not a very evil thing.. but God did.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Sin is sin.

The “sin unto death” is willful, continuous, unrepentant sin.

it is?

John said a child of God can not do this..

is not the sin unto death committing a sin that leads to our physical death?

God has called His children to holiness 1 Peter 1:16, and God corrects them when they sin. We are not “punished” for our sin in the sense of losing salvation or being eternally separated from God, yet we are disciplined. “The Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son” Hebrews 12:6

yes. amen

There may come a time when God decides to cut short a believer’s life due to unrepentant sin. That is the “sin unto death”

ah I see where your coming.. This is still physical death (God calling a child home) not spiritual death

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

When you obey His words posted herein on this subject you will increase in understanding

yes, when we obey, and wee see good came from it. we validate our faith in obedience and God is trustworthy. and this increases our knowledge also

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

This is textbook Reformed theology.

this is texbook not listing to a person and trying to put them under some ISM.

Try listening to him, and stop accusing him of things he is not.

maybe then you will really understand what he was saying..

otherwise. it is just another arminian vs calvin debate that is meaningless. because your not hearing a word the person is saying. Your seen what you want to see.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You do not understand what Paul is teaching.

while your at it. lets try tome humility

do not tell a person what he is doing, Share your point of view.. and move on.

This will get you a hand in the face.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

that's just it, i am not teaching you

i am following the teachings of Christ

your sharing your view. amen.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I understand very just about everything you say. But I agree with just about nothing you say on the subject of soteriology.

no you do not

yes you disagree.

but when you try to repeat what I say and interpret it. Your so far off your not even close.. And in doing so. you also bear false witness..

If you just disagreed. we could agree to disagree. but you go way beyond this

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You do know that faith in God is believing in God do you not?

see what I mean? Where have I said otherwise. do you eber listen, why would you ask such a question.

They are one and the same. Both are something that YOU do. God says if you do that, have faith in Him, believe in Him, then He will save you.

Yes. faith and believe can be the same

but they may not be the same

I can believe someone, and not trust them..

you do understand this correct?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Believing is something you do. It is a work, just not a work of law. And at least you are correct that they do not gain nor earn salvation. But God has said when you do that, i.e., believe in Him, in Jesus Christ, in the gospel, He will save you.

it is the work of God we believe

You want to boast in saving yourself because you claim you had faith in him

feel free

I will boast in God who offered me his gift. and asked me to take it in faith. which I did

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

We are saved by grace through faith. We stay saved by grace through faith.

then why are you opposing me..

Oh wait, You do not really believe this do you?

its just words. You believe you can lose salvation. so

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Are you serious? How many good deeds do you think it takes to gain salvation? How do you know when you have done enough good deeds to gain salvation?

proof you do not read anything I say. except through your biased opinion

That comment was my addressing what @GodsGrace said. she is the one who insisted we can not be saved without deeds. not me

keep trying dude..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The evidentiary proof is good deeds? Is that what you are promoting?

Nope again shows you can't read

it says FAITH in god man or any other person or thing is not just blind faith. It is based on evidentiary proof (it is not blind faith)

keep on going.. Your hurting yourself. because you only see what you want..

but that works out. because then I can expose it.