Works and Salvation
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brightfame52
Well-known member
Was John the Baptist filled the Holy Ghost before Jesus was Glorified Luke 1:13-15
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
And Johns Father 1:67
And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
Also the people who received/believed on Christs name during His Ministry here were said to be born of God, which is regeneration John 1:12-13
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
This was before He was Glorified !
No, did you fail to observe who used the first duh
Brightfame52 stated
as that person simply repeats his statements without addressing rebuttal so the reply was simply copied over and over in response
BTW Logos does not spit out answers mechanically. Verses dealing with particular topics have been memorized and a system of self generated notes created over a period of 30 plus years concerning various subject have been employed
that and a lot of investigation of various resources
You are on the wrong track here
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Matthew 18:15 (New International Version):
"If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over."
Galatians 6:1-2 (New International Version):
"Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ."
James 5:19-20 (New International Version):
"My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins."
Proverbs 27:5-6 (New International Version):
"Better is open rebuke than hidden love. Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses."
1 Thessalonians 5:14 (New International Version):
"And we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone."
These passages emphasize the importance of addressing sin or error in a spirit of love, humility, and gentleness. It's crucial to approach the situation with the goal of restoration and reconciliation rather than condemnation, seeking to help the erring brother or sister return to the right path and grow in their faith. Additionally, these passages highlight the need for discretion, confidentiality, and accountability in the process of correction, as well as the recognition of our own vulnerability to temptation and sin.
Now-when it comes to our Calvinist brothers and sisters-
As a Christian, it's important to approach differences in theological beliefs with humility, grace, and love, rather than condemnation. While you may disagree with someone who holds Calvinist beliefs (or any other theological perspective), Scripture encourages Christians to maintain unity in the body of Christ and to treat one another with respect and kindness. Here are some scriptural principles to consider:
Romans 14:1-4 (New International Version):
"Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand."
1 Corinthians 1:10 (New International Version):
"I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought."
Ephesians 4:2-3 (New International Version):
"Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace."
Colossians 3:12-14 (New International Version):
"Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity."
These passages emphasize the importance of unity, love, and humility within the body of Christ. While it's natural to have differences in theological understanding, Christians are called to treat one another with kindness and respect, recognizing that ultimately, we all serve the same Lord. Instead of condemning others for their beliefs, strive to engage in respectful dialogue, seeking understanding and mutual edification.
Nope-the one on the wrong track is not me.
Anyway-have a blessed day.
civic
Well-known member
yes no Holy Spirit needed, no gospel needed, no faith needed. just the false doctrine of election/determinism.
dwight92070
Well-known member
That's total nonsense. Have you ever heard of the 10 commandments? And the rest of the Law? If Israel obeyed, they would be blessed with God's favor. If they disobeyed, they would be cursed.
The same is true in the New Testament. If we don't do what Jesus said, which would be works, then we're building our spiritual house on the sand, and will experience a great fall. If we obey Jesus, by doing the works He commanded, then we're building our house on the rock, and it will stand because of God's favor.
There is obedience to God's will, however, that is not a work, but still brings God's favor. Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in the One who He sent." Jesus is NOT saying that believing is literally a work, rather is speaking figuratively, as He often did. Believing and repenting bring God's favor - the Salvation of our souls, but Paul makes it very clear that these are not literal works. Romans 4:1-5
Christ and the gospel are not central in Calvinist soteriology. Unconditional election has taken that place.
I told you what the case was. You can accept it or not. The choice is yours, but you undertook to judge my motives, not following your own advise.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Motivated by the Holy Spirit Like the Prophets, Samson, David, etc??? Absolutely!!!!
Any number of OLD testament folks were "Filled by the Spirit" in that sense (Motivated by)..
However until John 20:22, NOBODY was INDWELLED by the Holy Spirit, which couldn't happen until they were cleansed of their SIN which only became possible after Jesus' SIN OFFERING (Isa 53:10) on Calvary.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
I'm not sure what you're saying here. If you mean that the Holy Spirit can't indwell someone who hasn't been cleansed of sin, I'm not sure that washes. We have imputed righteousness, not actual righteousness. We still have sin, yet we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit. Abraham had imputed righteousness, too, among others. So I don't see the problem with OT people being filled with the Holy Spirit.
civic
Well-known member
Spot on !
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
SO Jesus didn't know what he was talking about when he said:
Jhn 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
15 `If ye love me, my commands keep, 16 and I will ask the Father, and another Comforter He will give to you, that he may remain with you -- to the age; 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it doth not behold him, nor know him, and ye know him, because he doth remain with you, and shall be in you.
There's a condition. If ye love me, my commands keep, 16 and I will ask the Father... Plus, the WORLD is not able to receive. That doesn't mean those imputed with righteousness before this could not receive.
Was the Father incapable of granting the Holy Spirit before this moment? It seems as if He was capable:
Psalm 51:11 Cast me not forth from Thy presence, And Thy Holy Spirit take not from me.
Mark 12:36 for David himself said in the Holy Spirit
Is there a distinction between being in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit being in you? Not if you take the plain meaning of Psalm 51.
Luke 11:13 If, then, ye, being evil, have known good gifts to be giving to your children, how much more shall the Father who is from heaven give the Holy Spirit to those asking Him!'
To those asking Him? Jesus said this before He was crucified and rose from the dead.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
There is a distinction between being EXTERNALLY INLUENCED / MOTIVATED by the Holy Spirit, and being Permanently INDWELLED by the Holy Spirit, which only applied to born again Christian AFTER CALVARY, as recorded in John 20:22. Jesus'language about acts 2:4 indicated EXTERNAL CLOTHING (Enduement) by the Holy Spirit who, in the disciple's case, where already indwelled by Him since the evening of the Ressurection.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
And how do you know that...
Psalm 51:11 Cast me not forth from Thy presence, And Thy Holy Spirit take not from me.
Luke 11:13 If, then, ye, being evil, have known good gifts to be giving to your children, how much more shall the Father who is from heaven give the Holy Spirit to those asking Him!'
Is only influence and not indwelling, other than assuming that the Holy Spirit could not indwell based on John 20:22 breathing on the disciples? It seems to me that you're enforcing a rule that is not found anywhere in scripture. "How much more shall the Father who is from heaven give the Holy Spirit to those asking Him" doesn't sound to me like it can only be an influence. Give/receive go hand in hand.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Them who are in the flesh, which all the unregenerate are, having not the Spirit, they cannot please Rom 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
And Faith/Seeking God pleases Him according to Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
If a person does seek God, that means they have been regenerated, duh
brightfame52
Well-known member
Was John the Baptist filled the Holy Ghost before Jesus was Glorified Luke 1:13-15
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
And Johns Father 1:67
And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
Also the people who received/believed on Christs name during His Ministry here were said to be born of God, which is regeneration John 1:12-13
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
This was before He was Glorified !
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
The Bible says so. and Jesus was the one who told the that the Holy Spirit would be "IN THEM" since at the time, He Wasn't It's the difference between the OLD Covenant, and the NEW Covenant in Jesus' Blood.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
As @brightfame52 pointed out:
15 for he shall be great before the Lord, and wine and strong drink he may not drink, and of the Holy Spirit he shall be full, even from his mother's womb;
So your interpretation must be wrong. You're putting God in a jail cell, and refuse to release Him until a certain time and event.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
OR Your interpretation is wrong. It's only "theology" after all. The Holy Spirit indwelled NOBODY until after Calvary, and Jesus' perfect SIN OFFERING. but plenty of folks were fully motivated by (filled) all through the Old Testament. People who've been Born Again, are Indwelled by the Holy SPirit, and occasionally Filled with Him (Motivated/given power by him) also when that type of ministry is required.
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