"Works Salvation"

[DavidTree]

Paul taught we are saved by an obedient faith,
Romans 1:5 ; Romans 16:26 ; Romans 15:18
- by whom we have received  grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for his name

- but now is made manifest and by the Scriptures of the prophets according to the commandment of the everlasting God made known to all nations for obedience of faith

- for I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath wrought by me to make the gentiles obedient by word and deed(works)

Paul, taught faith without obedient works was profitless.

Galatians 5:6,
- for in Jesus Christ neither circumcision nor uncircumcision profiteth anything but faith which worketh by love

We know Jesus' word defines love of God as working His commandments.

John 14:21,
- He that hath My commandments and keepeth them he it s that loveth Me and he that loveth Me shall be loved by My Father and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him

Correct = and this Obedience unto Salvation Begins and End with the LORD Jesus Christ

"looking unto JESUS the Author and Finisher of our faith"

But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

 

[DavidTree]

"Works salvation" is a term that gets thown around a lot on forums as this one.

1) What is "works salvation"? How does one define "works salvation" according to the Bible?

2) What is an example from the Bible of "works salvation"?

3) Was Noah's work in building the ark "to the saving of his house" (Heb 11:7) a "works salvation"?

Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? | GotQuestions.org

Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? Why do so many people believe that we can be saved by works?

www.gotquestions.org

Is the above link correct in saying that "works salvation" is man trying to control his own eternal destiny? Is it true that man has no control, no role at all in his own eternal destiny? Did Noah have no control, no role at all in the saving of his house?

a.) "Is it true that man has no control, no role at all in his own eternal destiny?"
b.) "Did Noah have no control, no role at all in the saving of his house?"

Two different applications that also contain some commonality.

a.) Is not controlled by man because man is not in control of Salvation, whereas God is.
Control and role are not synonymous for the One who is in control is not the same as the one who in his/her role

b.) After a person receives Salvation(God's Control), he/she remains(role) dependent upon God for obedience unto "Thy will be done on earth"

c.) God knowing all things, directed James in writing the Letter/Book of James

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Titus]

Correct = and this Obedience unto Salvation Begins and End with the LORD Jesus Christ

"looking unto JESUS the Author and Finisher of our faith"

But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Right Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all that obey Him, Hebrews 5:8-9.

and this Obedience unto Salvation Begins and End with the LORD Jesus Christ

What does that mean Jesus?
John 5:24,
- verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My word(obeys His gospel) and believeth on Him that sent Me hath eternal life and shall not come into condemnation but us passed from death unto life

Jesus does not teach faith alone to receive eternal life.
Jesus teaches one must hear, meaning believe and obey His word i.e. gospel to receive eternal life.

Peter and Paul preached Jesus' gospel.
One must repent.
One must obey this commandment in Jesus' word, gospel.

Acts 17:30-31,
- and the times if this ignorance God winked at but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent

Can anyone claim no obedience to working Gods commandments like repentance to be saved?
Not if they want to teach sound doctrine they can't!!!
Jesus' word commands repentance.
Commandments are the obedient works we must do in the new testament to recieve Gods grace.

Acts 10:33-35,
- immediately I sent for thee and thou hast well done, that thou art come Now therefore are we present before God to hear all things that are commanded thee of God

- but in every nation he that feareth Him and worketh righteousness is accepted with God

Peter teaches the gospel to Cornelius and tells him he must do what God has commanded him.

This doing is the obedience of faith.
We are saved by Gods grace and faith not by meritorious works.
Rightly defined faith that saves always works Gods commandments, works righteousness.

So yes we are saved by faith not by works when Biblical faith is rightly defined and Jesus' works of faith are rightly defined.

1Thessalonians 1:3,
- remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of God and our Father

John 3:36,
- he that believeth on the Son hath eternal life and he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abideth on him

One must obey Jesus' gospel commandment to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23-24.
Its impossible to get obedience to Gods commandments out of salvation.
True saving faith obeys does good works,
Janes 2:20,
- but wilt thou know O foolish man that faith without works(obdience) is dead

Does faith save, yes, only when it obeys Jesus commandments in His new testament gospel.

 

[Nannette]

Noah did have control, as shown in his obedient to the commands of God.

But should we be surprised that after the flood Noah did not act so righteously and fell into sin when he got drunk and became naked? Genesis 9:21

 

[Titus]

a.) Is not controlled by man because man is not in control of Salvation, whereas God is

Acts 2:40,
- and with many words did he testify and exhort saying Save yourselves from this untoward generation

Man is in control of where he chooses to spend eternity. You sound like you believe in calvanism.

Man can even help save others,
James 4:19,
- brethren if any of you do err from the truth and one convert him let him know that he which converted the sinner from the error of his ways shall save a soul from death and shall cover a multitude of sins

 

[DavidTree]

Right Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all that obey Him, Hebrews 5:8-9.


What does that mean Jesus?
John 5:24,
- verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My word(obeys His gospel) and believeth on Him that sent Me hath eternal life and shall not come into condemnation but us passed from death unto life

Jesus does not teach faith alone to receive eternal life.
Jesus teaches one must hear, meaning believe and obey His word i.e. gospel to receive eternal life.

Peter and Paul preached Jesus' gospel.
One must repent.
One must obey this commandment in Jesus' word, gospel.

Acts 17:30-31,
- and the times if this ignorance God winked at but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent

Can anyone claim no obedience to working Gods commandments like repentance to be saved?
Not if they want to teach sound doctrine they can't!!!
Jesus' word commands repentance.
Commandments are the obedient works we must do in the new testament to recieve Gods grace.

Acts 10:33-35,
- immediately I sent for thee and thou hast well done, that thou art come Now therefore are we present before God to hear all things that are commanded thee of God

- but in every nation he that feareth Him and worketh righteousness is accepted with God

Peter teaches the gospel to Cornelius and tells him he must do what God has commanded him.

This doing is the obedience of faith.
We are saved by Gods grace and faith not by meritorious works.
Rightly defined faith that saves always works Gods commandments, works righteousness.

So yes we are saved by faith not by works when Biblical faith is rightly defined and Jesus' works of faith are rightly defined.

1Thessalonians 1:3,
- remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of God and our Father

John 3:36,
- he that believeth on the Son hath eternal life and he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abideth on him

One must obey Jesus' gospel commandment to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23-24.
Its impossible to get obedience to Gods commandments out of salvation.
True saving faith obeys does good works,
Janes 2:20,
- but wilt thou know O foolish man that faith without works(obdience) is dead

Does faith save, yes, only when it obeys Jesus commandments in His new testament gospel.

No question and no debate on 'obedience' to Christ = Check

The Answer to faith/works is given to us beginning in Genesis and confirmed in the Gospel and Apostles writings

Acts 2:40,
- and with many words did he testify and exhort saying Save yourselves from this untoward generation

Man is in control of where he chooses to spend eternity. You sound like you believe in calvanism.

Man can even help save others,
James 4:19,
- brethren if any of you do err from the truth and one convert him let him know that he which converted the sinner from the error of his ways shall save a soul from death and shall cover a multitude of sins

i never read, nor was ever part of Calvinism, whether thru churches, fellowship or from books.

Sola Scriptura is the Measure and Validator of what constitutes Truth = "Thy word is Truth"
When we "rightly divide the word of Truth" we get things RIGHT
When we neglect, reject, ignore or impose on "Thy word is Truth" , we drift off course.

Example: You quoted Acts 2:40 and concluded "Man is in control of where he chooses to spend eternity"

That is not what JESUS Says is taking place in Acts 2:40 and if you "rightly divide" you will SEE Who is in Control

Take NOTICE that your Acts 2:40 verse is under the Control of the LORD = Acts 2:47

Acts 2:47 - And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts chapter 2 is Exactly as JESUS Says - John 6:43-45
Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’
Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.


SEE how Trustworthy the words of God are and they never contradict the Truth

 

[Titus]

No question and no debate on 'obedience' to Christ = Check

The Answer to faith/works is given to us beginning in Genesis and confirmed in the Gospel and Apostles writings



i never read, nor was ever part of Calvinism, whether thru churches, fellowship or from books.

Sola Scriptura is the Measure and Validator of what constitutes Truth = "Thy word is Truth"
When we "rightly divide the word of Truth" we get things RIGHT
When we neglect, reject, ignore or impose on "Thy word is Truth" , we drift off course.

Example: You quoted Acts 2:40 and concluded "Man is in control of where he chooses to spend eternity"

That is not what JESUS Says is taking place in Acts 2:40 and if you "rightly divide" you will SEE Who is in Control

Take NOTICE that your Acts 2:40 verse is under the Control of the LORD = Acts 2:47

KJV - And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts chapter 2 is Exactly as JESUS Says - John 6:43-45
Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’
Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.


SEE how Trustworthy the words of God are and they never contradict the Truth

You have framed control as either/ or.
It is both God and man working together, Grace(Gods part)
Faith(Mans part).

God controls who will be saved.
And by Gods grace he will save all those who CHOOSE to believe and obey His gospel.
God gives man the ability to control his eternal abode.
Not one person will find a way around Gods gospel and "sneek" into heaven.
Why? Because God is in control.
And by Gods control(will) we are allowed to control our salvation.
By doing the will of the Father.

Matthew 7:21,
- not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven but ONLY the one who DOES(OBEDIENCE) the will of My Father who is in heaven

Acts 2 Peter told them they can choose to be saved,
Acts 2:37,
- when they heard this(gospel) they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles brethren what shall we  Do

Peter told them that if they call upon the name of the Lord by repentance and baptism they will be saved.
If you can do something then God has allowed the person to choose his damnation or salvation.
Man absolutely is in control of his salvation and for you to teach we are not is calvinism.

Acts 2:38,
- then Peter said to them repent and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

Acts 2:37-40,
- and with many other words did he testify and exhort saying save yourselves from this untoward generation

 

[charismaticlady]

I see it differently, Sin - the greek word- literally means to miss the mark.

But what about murder. Can the definition missing the mark encompass it? No! The sin of murder is not just missing the mark, it is true lawlessness. Forgetting to call your mother when you said you would is missing the mark. God showed us the difference in the Old Testament. He let us offer a sacrifice for the lesser sin, but no sin for a greater sin. Those were killed!

Numbers 15:22-36

 

[DavidTree]

You have framed control as either/ or.
It is both God and man working together, Grace(Gods part)
Faith(Mans part).

God gives man the ability to control his eternal abode.

Not according to the Word that was God and became flesh.
God is always in Control, whereas man is not.
God Saves = Period
Man can never save himself apart from God Calling that man/men woman/women and children

The preaching of Peter in Acts chapter 2 Measures and Validates the words of the LORD = John 6:43-45

Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?
I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.

So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

SEE = Acts 2:40 is SUPERCEDED by Acts 2:47 which is the Foundation of Truth laid down by the LORD = John 6:43-45

Man's responsibility after "hearing the Call of God" is to accept the Call thru obedience to HIM who Calls

Genesis = Which came first???
a.) the chicken or the egg
b.) the man or the woman
c.) Salvation or works
d.) Grace or the law
e.) the Call or faith

 

[Damien]

But what about murder. Can the definition missing the mark encompass it? No! The sin of murder is not just missing the mark, it is true lawlessness. Forgetting to call your mother when you said you would is missing the mark. God showed us the difference in the Old Testament. He let us offer a sacrifice for the lesser sin, but no sin for a greater sin. Those were killed!

Numbers 15:22-36

Sin is sin. And all sin is a falling short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23). So there’s either righteousness or unrighteousness, and "righteousness—perfection—is an absolute". Broadly speaking, all sins are equal to God in that all sins are by definition “unrighteous” and “imperfect.”

Yes, the whole idea of sin may have disappeared from our culture. It may have been softened in many of our churches so as not to make the audiences uncomfortable. And, sad to say, the concept of sin among many conservative Christians has been essentially redefined to cover only the obviously gross sins of our society. The result, then, is that for many morally upright believers, the awareness of personal sin has effectively disappeared from their consciences.

But it has not disappeared from the sight of God. Rather, all sins —both the so-called respectable sins of the saints, which we too often tolerate, and the flagrant sins of society, which we are quick to condemn —are a disregard for the Law of God and are reprehensible in His sight. Both deserve the curse of God.

 

[charismaticlady]

Sin is sin.

Not according to God and it wasn't until the Reformation corrupted the doctrine that sin was no longer defined as the apostles taught it, that Lawlessness is sin unto death, and trespasses were sins NOT unto death. Also defined as willful and unintentional sins. Big difference.

The letters from Jesus to the seven churches were also prophetic of the 7 church ages before the second coming. This is what Jesus said to those who started the Reformation, "you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." 200 years into the Reformation period God rose up men against Calvinism and said, " 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy."

That was the holiness movement started by men like Charles and John Wesley.

 

[charismaticlady]

Both deserve the curse of God.

The first type of sin that Jesus completely takes out of our sin nature, leaving us with a clean nature is lawlessness against God. Those are sins unto death. We are then able to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit to walk with hand in hand. But even so, there is a lesser type of sins which are just immaturity of the different fruits of the Spirit, but while we walk in the Spirit, Jesus cleanses those minor sins from our record, while Jesus finishes maturing those fruits in this order:

2 Peter 1:5-7 to 11
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

You see that Jesus will perfect us until we will never stumble. That is the stage of holiness. Whereas, taking away all desire to break a commandment is righteous. Revelation 22:11 ...he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

Two different stages Jesus can bring us to during our lifetime.

 

[Damien]

Sin is sin.

The “sin unto death” is willful, continuous, unrepentant sin.

God has called His children to holiness 1 Peter 1:16, and God corrects them when they sin. We are not “punished” for our sin in the sense of losing salvation or being eternally separated from God, yet we are disciplined. “The Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son” Hebrews 12:6

There may come a time when God decides to cut short a believer’s life due to unrepentant sin. That is the “sin unto death”

 

[charismaticlady]

There may come a time when God decides to cut short a believer’s life due to unrepentant sin. That is the “sin unto death”

It was the sins against the commandments of God that required stoning to death.

 

[Neil Spargo]

It was the sins against the commandments of God that required stoning to death.

The Torah imposes a penalty of death for a range of misdeeds. These include ritual infractions, such as violating the Sabbath, worshiping idols and cursing God; sexual sins, including incest, adultery, anal sex between men and bestiality; and various criminal acts, including murder, kidnapping and giving false testimony in a capital case. In one particularly challenging biblical passage (Deuteronomy 18-21), the Torah imposes a penalty of death by stoning in the case of a “wayward son” who does not heed his parents’ discipline. (The Talmud states that there never actually was a wayward son nor will there ever be one and that the Torah mentions it merely so it should be studied.)

Stoning is the most common method of execution described in the Torah, prescribed not only in the case of the rebellious child, but also for murder, blasphemy, breaking the Sabbath and idolatry. The Torah specifies that a person may be put to death only on the testimony of two witnesses — never by one alone — and that the witnesses who testified must be the first to lay their hands on the accused to kill him. Death by fire is mandated for a number of sexual sins, mainly various forms of incest.

The Death Penalty in Jewish Tradition | My Jewish Learning

Judaism and Death Penalty. About Jewish Death and Mourning. Jewish Bereavement. Jewish Lifecycle

www.myjewishlearning.com

 

[Believer]

The Torah imposes a penalty of death for a range of misdeeds. These include ritual infractions, such as violating the Sabbath, worshiping idols and cursing God; sexual sins, including incest, adultery, anal sex between men and bestiality; and various criminal acts, including murder, kidnapping and giving false testimony in a capital case. In one particularly challenging biblical passage (Deuteronomy 18-21), the Torah imposes a penalty of death by stoning in the case of a “wayward son” who does not heed his parents’ discipline. (The Talmud states that there never actually was a wayward son nor will there ever be one and that the Torah mentions it merely so it should be studied.)

Stoning is the most common method of execution described in the Torah, prescribed not only in the case of the rebellious child, but also for murder, blasphemy, breaking the Sabbath and idolatry. The Torah specifies that a person may be put to death only on the testimony of two witnesses — never by one alone — and that the witnesses who testified must be the first to lay their hands on the accused to kill him. Death by fire is mandated for a number of sexual sins, mainly various forms of incest.

God’s reasons for bringing about the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira involve His abhorrence of sin, the hypocrisy of the couple, and the lesson for the rest of the church, both then and now. It can be easy today to gloss over the holiness of God, to forget that He is righteous and pure and that He hates sin wholeheartedly.

Why did God kill Ananias and Sapphira for lying? | GotQuestions.org

Why did God kill Ananias and Sapphira for lying? Did Ananias and Sapphira really deserve to be put to death?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Titus]

Just got back from Bible study.

Man can never save himself apart from God Calling that man/men woman/women and children

You didn't get this idea from me!!!! Pay attention.

You have framed control as either/ or.
It is both God and man working together, Grace(Gods part)
Faith(Mans part)

Pay attention. You didn't get these ideas from me!!!

God controls who will be saved.
And by Gods grace he will save all those who CHOOSE to believe and obey His gospel.
God gives man the ability to control his eternal abode.
Not one person will find a way around Gods gospel and "sneek" into heaven.
Why? Because God is in control.
And by Gods control(will) we are allowed to control our salvation.
By doing the will of the Father.

Man can never save himself apart from God Calling that man/men woman/women and children

Where did you get this from? Not from me!!!

Matthew 7:21,
- not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven but ONLY the one who DOES(OBEDIENCE) the will of My Father who is in heaven

You paying attention to what I teach? Doesnt seem likely since your responses have nothing to do with what I believe. Like this quote below,

Man can never save himself apart from God Calling that man/men woman/women and children

Who told you that? Didn't hear it from me!!!!

I taught you salvation is only for the ones who DO the will of God.
That is completely the opposite of saving oneself apart from God as you said.

 

[Titus]

I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase

The gospel is sown in the hearts of men how? By preaching and teaching of men.

Do you not see men are involved in other mens salvation, James 4:20,
- let him know that he which converted the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death and shall cover a multitude of sins

Paul said his teaching had begotten men. Paul takes credit for souls being saved by the work of teaching the gospel to others. Paul understands men play a part in salvation.
1Corinthians 4:15,
- for though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ yet you do not have many fathers
For in Christ Jesus I(Paul) have BEGOTTEN YOU THROUGH THE GOSPEL

Let's examine some of your verses,

So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase

The very verses you use proves my teaching.
Do you not see men are involved in others being saved?

This passage is teaching the power is in the seed. That being the gospel.
But how does it get planted in soil?
How does it get watered?

If it means what you imply then the men who plant and water are completely unnecessary.
According to you only God saves them the men who planted the seed having no part in others salvation.

Ok,
THEN JUST GET THE PLANTERS AND THOSE WHO WATER COMPLETELY OUT OF THE PASSAGE.
GET THEM COMPLETELY OUT OF ALL THE SCRIPTURES.
REMOVE ALL MEN THAT PLANT THE SEED(GOSPEL) THROUGH PREACHING THE GOSPEL.

How many are going to be saved by God when there are no men involved?

That is what you are teaching, whether you realize it or not.

Who will God save if no man shares the gospel on earth?
Who will God save if no men attend worship on Sunday?
Who will God save if no one on earth plants the seed into others hearts?

You are convinced God only saves and man plays no part in another mans salvation.

The problem with that is the Bible doesn't teach your teaching.

Let's examine another of your verses.

Exactly as JESUS Says - John 6:43-45
Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’
Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me

Listen to this it proves my teaching not yours.

Quote: "therefore everyone who has HEARD and LEARNED from the Father comes to Me"
How will they learn what is written to be drawn to God?
Do you think God Himself is going to teach them directly?

Listen to Paul,
- Romans 10:13-14, 17
- for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
How then shall they call on God to whom they have not believed and how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard AND HOW SHALL THEY HEAR WITHOUT A PREACHER(MAN)

- SO FAITH COMETH BY HEARING(PREACHING FROM MAN) and hearing by the word of God


How many will God apart from mans work in gospel ministry will God save?
How many will get faith apart from other men sharing the gospel with them?

 

[DavidTree]

Just got back from Bible study.


You didn't get this idea from me!!!! Pay attention.

Pay attention. You didn't get these ideas from me!!!


Where did you get this from? Not from me!!!

You paying attention to what I teach? Doesnt seem likely since your responses have nothing to do with what I believe. Like this quote below,

Who told you that? Didn't hear it from me!!!!

I taught you salvation is only for the ones who DO the will of God.
That is completely the opposite of saving oneself apart from God as you said.

JESUS teaches us from the scriptures i posted, who is in Control of Salvation

If you "obey" His words you will increase in understanding.

If you "deny/alter" His words of John 6:43-45 & Acts chapter 2, you will form your own opinion on His Salvation.

Obey His TRUTH = Acts chapter 2 = How does it begin and how does it finish???

1.) It begins with God = the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
2.) God prepares the time, the place, the audience for fulfillment of Prophecy
3.) By the power of the Holy Spirit Peter preaches
4.) Some "hear the words of God" = John 6:43-45
5.) others do not hear = John 6:43-45
6.) those who are Called by the Father unto Christ respond/obey the Call/Message
7) It finishes with God = HE added to His Church "such as should be saved"

Alter this TRUTH in any way and you choose man centered reasoning over Faith in the Word

Here it is again for you = "looking to JESUS the Author and Finisher of our faith"

Again here =
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?
I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.

So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

No one is able to deny the Truth in this post except thru the 'will of man'.

DavidTree AGREES with God's words including the necessity of obedience to CHRIST which also comes from God.

"Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures." - James 1:16-18

When you obey His words posted herein on this subject you will increase in understanding

 

[DavidTree]

The gospel is sown in the hearts of men how? By preaching and teaching of men.

Do you not see men are involved in other mens salvation, James 4:20,
- let him know that he which converted the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death and shall cover a multitude of sins

Paul said his teaching had begotten men. Paul takes credit for souls being saved by the work of teaching the gospel to others. Paul understands men play a part in salvation.
1Corinthians 4:15,
- for though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ yet you do not have many fathers
For in Christ Jesus I(Paul) have BEGOTTEN YOU THROUGH THE GOSPEL

Let's examine some of your verses,

The very verses you use proves my teaching.
Do you not see men are involved in others being saved?

This passage is teaching the power is in the seed. That being the gospel.
But how does it get planted in soil?
How does it get watered?

If it means what you imply then the men who plant and water are completely unnecessary.
According to you only God saves them the men who planted the seed having no part in others salvation.

Ok,
THEN JUST GET THE PLANTERS AND THOSE WHO WATER COMPLETELY OUT OF THE PASSAGE.
GET THEM COMPLETELY OUT OF ALL THE SCRIPTURES.
REMOVE ALL MEN THAT PLANT THE SEED(GOSPEL) THROUGH PREACHING THE GOSPEL.

How many are going to be saved by God when there are no men involved?

That is what you are teaching, whether you realize it or not.

Who will God save if no man shares the gospel on earth?
Who will God save if no men attend worship on Sunday?
Who will God save if no one on earth plants the seed into others hearts?

You are convinced God only saves and man plays no part in another mans salvation.

The problem with that is the Bible doesn't teach your teaching.

Let's examine another of your verses.

Listen to this it proves my teaching not yours.

Quote: "therefore everyone who has HEARD and LEARNED from the Father comes to Me"
How will they learn what is written to be drawn to God?
Do you think God Himself is going to teach them directly?

Listen to Paul,
- Romans 10:13-14, 17
- for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
How then shall they call on God to whom they have not believed and how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard AND HOW SHALL THEY HEAR WITHOUT A PREACHER(MAN)

- SO FAITH COMETH BY HEARING(PREACHING FROM MAN) and hearing by the word of God


How many will God apart from mans work in gospel ministry will God save?
How many will get faith apart from other men sharing the gospel with them?

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