Works and Salvation

Seabass said:
I do not know what this means or where it's found in the NT.
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Matthew 5:28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

is adultery sin? yes, and it's where? answer in the heart, (spiritual).

now when the man and the woman gets into the bed, to DO the ACT that's in their hearts, then that SIN is Manifested..... or KNOWN. as long as it is in the heart, and not yet ... "MANIFESTED" ... but acted upon, which is called INIQUITY, then the works of the flesh is manifested or revealed. meaning what's in the Heart is now seen or known.

please understand the difference between SIN, and INIQUITY

101G.
 
101G said:
Matthew 5:28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

is adultery sin? yes, and it's where? answer in the heart, (spiritual).

now when the man and the woman gets into the bed, to DO the ACT that's in their hearts, then that SIN is Manifested..... or KNOWN. as long as it is in the heart, and not yet ... "MANIFESTED" ... but acted upon, which is called INIQUITY, then the works of the flesh is manifested or revealed. meaning what's in the Heart is now seen or known.

please understand the difference between SIN, and INIQUITY

101G.
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Obedience that justifies is not just a thought but something done.....why call ye Me Lord Lord and DO NOT the things that I say Lk 6:46. Those who DOETH the will of the Father enter the kingdon Mt 7:21. Hence works are necessary in order to be saved, not just any work, but obeying the will of God.
 
Seabass said:
Obedience that justifies is not just a thought but something done.....why call ye Me Lord Lord and DO NOT the things that I say Lk 6:46. Those who DOETH the will of the Father enter the kingdon Mt 7:21. Hence works are necessary in order to be saved, not just any work, but obeying the will of God.
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and where do that will start at? ...... thank you.

101G.
 
op: works and salvation?

or: works for salvation?

or: "Grace Through faith" for salvation, and "works for rewards"?
(Eph 2:8-9; 1Co 15:3-4; Titus 3:4-7; and then Eph 2:10; 1Co 3:8-15)​
​
"And if By Grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise Grace is No More Grace.​
But if it be of works, then is it No More Grace: otherwise work is no more work."​
(Romans 11:6)​

Amen.

Rightly Divided study:

I have decided to follow Jesus?​

 
Grace ambassador said:
op: works and salvation?

or: works for salvation?

or: "Grace Through faith" for salvation, and "works for rewards"?
(Eph 2:8-9; 1Co 15:3-4; Titus 3:4-7; and then Eph 2:10; 1Co 3:8-15)"And if By Grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise Grace is No More Grace.But if it be of works, then is it No More Grace: otherwise work is no more work."(Romans 11:6)
Amen.

Rightly Divided study:

I have decided to follow Jesus?​

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following the Lord Jesus is the best way.

101G.
 
Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Jesus never knew these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 which means they were never saved. Not genuine believers.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. This is God's will for us for salvation. Not to be confused with God's will for us after salvation. See 1 Thessalonians 5:14-18.
 
101G said:
and where do that will start at? ...... thank you.

101G.
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Rom 10:17 it all starts with hearing the word...faith comes by hearing the word of God then one's faith leads one to obey God....obedience to the faith Rom 1:5. Paul said in Rom 10:16 "obedience unto righteousness". Salvation/righteousness/justification is impossible apart from obedience. Rom 617-18. Those who "obey not" the gospel of Christ will be lost in flaiming fire, 2 Thess 1:8.
 
Bronson said:
Sorry for ranting but It's what I do best. Since your thread is entitled works and salvation I don't see the problem. Just as you're entitled to have your opinion on this topic please allow me the same courtesy.
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You're free to rant if you want and I have no problem with that, which is why I engaged with your post, but I am asking that you also address the points that I made in the OP.
 

Work can be defined as12345:
  • In physics, work is the energy transferred to or from an object via the application of force along a displacement.
  • Work is said to be done when a body or object moves with the application of external force.
  • Work is a measure of energy transfer that occurs when an object is moved over a distance by an external force at least part of which is applied in the direction of the displacement.
  • Work can also refer to physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something.
  • Work can be an activity, such as a job, that a person uses physical or mental effort to do, usually for money.
en.wikipedia.org

Work (physics) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Rockson said:
I'm not sure how that addresses the issue I raised in quoting Eze 36:26.
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I agree that the Spirit helps us to obey, but that doesn't contradict what I said.

Rockson said:
Anyway the law was given according to Gal 3:24 the law was our schoolmaster to bringu us to Christ and also we no longer live by Christ lives in us. We must yeild to the Spirit and allow him to live his life in us and through us. They didn't have this in the OT times. They had moral principals they were to seek to adhere to but God knew they couldn't keep them in the purest way and form. Thus you read scriptures like Mt 5:21 and others

God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 1 Jn 4:15 This was only possible in the New Covenant times, Christ IN US the hope of glory. 2 Cor 6:16 is another verse, For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”


Not in the way that God intended. They didn't have the heart for it or the spiritual capacity. Thus the promise of a new heart or a new nature in the future.
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In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the law leads us to Christ because it teaches us how to know him, or in other words, how to have an intimate relationship with him. Jesus lived in obedience to God's law, so that is the way that we live when he is living in us, and while the Spirit helps us to obey, it is still leading us to obey God's law. Where does the Bible say that God knew that they couldn't keep them in the purest way and form? In Matthew 5:21, Jesus was correcting what the people had heard being taught and fulfilling the law by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended, but said nothing about them not being able to obey in the purest way and from. Having a new heart does not involve doing something other than what God has commanded and what God has commanded it not something other than what God intended.
 
Bronson said:

Work can be defined as12345:
  • In physics, work is the energy transferred to or from an object via the application of force along a displacement.
  • Work is said to be done when a body or object moves with the application of external force.
  • Work is a measure of energy transfer that occurs when an object is moved over a distance by an external force at least part of which is applied in the direction of the displacement.
  • Work can also refer to physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something.
  • Work can be an activity, such as a job, that a person uses physical or mental effort to do, usually for money.
en.wikipedia.org

Work (physics) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
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There us a difference between work done in order to earn something as the result and work that is intrinsically part of the experience of doing something.
 
Seabass said:
Paul and James are in 100% complete agreement that obedience to God's will justifies;

Rom 6:17-18--------obey from the heart (obedience to God) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justified
James 2--------------works (obedience to God) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justifies.

Obedience to God and works of merit are two totally different things.

Paul and James are reaching the same conclusion from different directions for they are not talking about the same kind of works. James is talking about obedience and in Rom 3 Paul is talking about the work of perfect flawless law keeping as required by the OT to be justified by it.

Hence James is saying faith apart from obedience to God cannot justifiy
Paul is saying works of flawless law keeping apart from faith cannot justifiy for no one's work will be perfectly, sinlessly flawless.

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:" Paul is saying the flawless works required by the OT law cannot justify.

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." the phrase 'without deeds of the law" means justified by faith without the work/deeds of perfect flawless law keeping as required by the OT law.

Therefore it takes faith AND and faith (not perfect) obedience to God's will to be justified. Hence raith alone, that is, faith apart from obedience is dead therefore cannot justify. The disobedient to God's will are lost and will continue to be lost unless, until they decide to obey God's will.
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Someone still wouldn't earn their justification as the result of their obedience to the Mosaic Law even they managed to live in perfect obedience it because it was never given as a means of doing that (Romans 4:1-5). In Romans 3:21-22, it doesn't say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become justified that is testified about by the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe. However, it is nevertheless still the case that only doers of the Mosaic Law will be justified (Romans 2:13), which is because only doers of the Mosaic Law have faith, which is why the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to obey it, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31).
 
Grace ambassador said:
op: works and salvation?

or: works for salvation?

or: "Grace Through faith" for salvation, and "works for rewards"?
(Eph 2:8-9; 1Co 15:3-4; Titus 3:4-7; and then Eph 2:10; 1Co 3:8-15)​
​
"And if By Grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise Grace is No More Grace.​
But if it be of works, then is it No More Grace: otherwise work is no more work."​
(Romans 11:6)​

Amen.

Rightly Divided study:

I have decided to follow Jesus?​

Click to expand...
The topic is in regard to the relationship between works and salvation, which is not works for salvation. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so we are not required to have first done works for our salvation, but rather doing good works is intrinsically part of the the content of God's gift of salvation.

Grace is a gift and gifts can't be earned, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as those works as done to earn a wage, however, there can be any number of other reasons for doing works that are compatible with grace, which is why there are many verses that show that God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law (Psalms 119:29-30, Exodus 33:13, Genesis 6:8-9, Romans 1:5, Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 2:11-13). The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work does nothing to detract from it being gift as a gift.
 
mailmandan said:
Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Jesus never knew these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 which means they were never saved. Not genuine believers.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. This is God's will for us for salvation. Not to be confused with God's will for us after salvation. See 1 Thessalonians 5:14-18.
Click to expand...
In Matthew 7:21-23, it contrasts those who do the will of the Father with those who are workers of lawlessness, and the Father has straightforwardly made His will known through what He has commanded (Psalms 40:8), though it is also God's will to believe in the Son because His commands are His instructions for how to believe in the Son. In other words, obeying God's word is the way to believe in God's word made flesh. While there are many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by believing in the Son, there are also many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, which is again because obeying God's commandments is the way to believe in the Son. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so there must be an aspect of our salvation that we are experiencing in the present by living in obedience to God's law.
 
Now although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience in which he describes it as "obeyed the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16) the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God. Notice that Paul said they have (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith in Romans 1:5. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience/works "afterwards." Obedience that is produced "out of" faith is works and we are saved through faith, not works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

In regard to Romans 6:17, before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is really a synonym for believing the gospel.

I've noticed that certain folks typically ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which "follow" saving faith in Christ are "unto righteousness," as if we are saved by works.

In regard to Romans 6:16, there is a contrast here between servants. There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense - "servants of sin unto death," or "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being servants of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become servants of righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.
 
Believing the Gospel is a work since it requires obedience. Rom 6:17

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

That word obeyed is the greek word hypakouō:
  1. to listen, to harken
    1. of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter)
  2. to harken to a command
    1. to obey, be obedient to, submit to

Its also an act of submitting,

Now can a unregenerate person in the flesh submit to God and His Gospel and that from the heart ?

Now while thinking on that, Paul writes in the same epistle Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
 
brightfame52 said:
False. Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Click to expand...
You stop too soon in your quote. Verses 9-11
"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."
Now, the question remains, How and when does the Spirit of God come to dwell in you? Rom 6:2-7 says that the we die to sin and the Spirit comes to dwell in us when we are baptized into Christ. And Rom 10:14-17 says that salvation comes by faith, and faith by hearing the Word of God. It is through the hearing of the Word (the Gospel of how He was lifted up) that we are drawn to Christ, receive baptism, and our mind is turned from the flesh to the Spirit.
 

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