Will Babies that die go to Heaven?

[Azriel]

Actually, Scripture is supposed to tell us what to believe. Sadly, many tell the Scripture what they want it to say.

Exactly, There must be an echo in here.

 

[Azriel]

Are you expecting me to respond to all those Scriptures?

Nope.

 

[e v e]

There is no use of terms like system in scripture

He does not will evil, and it is not His fault we are in the sin body.

That idea of necessity as a buzz term is a greek philosophy and pagan concept.

He did not create us in evil.
Adam did.

there was no 'necessity' for sin...
that is just Greek philosophy -100x

 

[TedT]

He does not say that lil babies go to hell if they die.

nothing He says can be construed to fit that either

Since our election or non-election is from before the foundation of this world then it is easily construed that the elect who die as infants go to heaven as never having been condemned and the non-elect who die as infants return to Sheol as condemned already, John 3:18, Ps 9:17, with the rest of the wicked who die.

Age at death means absolutely nothing to the redemption of the sinful people of HIS kingdom, only that they are HIS elect. Every human is a sinner whether a son of HIS kingdom or a son of the evil one.

 

[TedT]

He did not create us in evil.
Adam did.

GOD created me and thee. Not Adam and not the devil. I repudiate the concept that HE created us anything but perfect with a free will able to chose to put our faith in HIM. Ecclesiastes 7:29 This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes."

How then do we get to be in a state of sin at our conception? Our conception was not our creation which happened before the creation of the physical universe which we all saw and sang HIS praise for this proof of HIS Divinity and eternal power, Job 38:7, and during this time between our creation and the creation of the physical universe, some chose by our free will to be sinful in HIS sight After the creation of the physical universe, only sinners, both the sinful good (elect) people of the kingdom and the sinful evil (non-elect) people of the evil one were sown, (not created since the devil sows also and can't create), into this world for the purpose of the redemption and sanctification of HIS sinful elect so they would be free from the dangers of the judgment against sin...
Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to the explanation of this parable, ie, no more metaphor, in verses 36-39]

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’[to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the wheat and the only maturity that saves a sinner from the judgment is a mature holiness!

Thus the sins of some of the people of HIS kingdom separated them from the holy elect and are the cause of the continued suffering of mankind on this earth.

 

[TedT]

what I understand is that He is not evil.

Adam brought all this on us, not God.

GOD is NOT evil, no matter how much theology says HE is.
We are not evil from GOD,
we are not evil from Adam,
we are evil from our own free will decision to rebel against the command of GOD, refusing to come out from among the Satanic so they could be damned.

 

[jeremiah1five]

yes you are wearing it - sin nature..
as are we all...

It is called the flesh body,
the body which is corrupt in nature and perishable
because of adam
and that is not made this way by God.

the restored Original body is the body made in Paradise
and to be resurrected at Christ's return for us on the clouds.

I would have to disagree with you.
God created man sinful, or as the Greek word "harmatia" is defined, "missing the mark."
What is that mark? The glory of God. Or the glory that is God.
That is the only way He can create a human (and angel.)
The Geek word "harmatia" is translated in the KJV as "sin."
Scripture says there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE.
Thus, man was created fallen short of the glory of God.
But you are correct. We are sinners and there is none righteous, born or unborn.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I'm sorry but I cannot accept this pov....

The doctrine that our sin nature is inherited from Adam brings blame upon GOD for our sin because:
1. we had no choice but to have a sin nature, that is, it was by HIS will, not ours, that we got a sin nature and

2. HE created the system whereby we would get a sin nature through no fault nor choice of our own and

3. there was no theological necessity for HIM to make us, HIS Bride, as corrupt and grossly evil in Adam when HE could have (and I contend HE did) create us with free will with the same ability to chose to eschew (or fall into) sin that Adam and Eve had, and

4. to create us in Adam's evil, liable to judgement and suffering and possible hell through no choice of our own to sin, does NOT fit in the least with HIS self revealed character as loving, righteous and just, thereby bringing HIS good Name into disrepute.

Since we made no choice and had no say in our being created evil by means of inheriting sin from Adam, under this doctrine GOD must carry the blame for all sin except Adam's and Eve's sin, and for all the attenuating suffering on earth by mankind and for every human in hell as well as the disrepute these things brings upon HIM.

God cannot be faulted although He created man sinful.
A lamb was slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world.
If you understand the significance of this act, well and good.
If not, it resembles the high priest cleansing himself before entering the Holy of Holies.
God's hands are clean. He is wiser than all of us put together.
And then some.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Exactly, There must be an echo in here.

Hello hello hello.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Nope.

I was prepared. Even copied and pasted on a blank document.
But in the end I thought, I could do all this work but you would still hold to your belief and not understand let alone accept Scripture.
So, do you accept Scripture as written?
But I will say about all those Scriptures do not shed any light on salvation. And it must be understood that in dealing with a different culture (Hebrew - and Hellenized Hebrew), as well as language there are a lot of considerations to be laid down and understood. One of them is if the Old Testament is addressing anything Hebrew/Jewish with regard to children it must be understood the children (in general) are already in the Abrahamic Covenant and "covered" as they say.
The New Testament Scriptures at that site doesn't make distinction that ALL the writings of the New Testament are written to Hebrew/Jews since Jesus is a Jewish Messiah and King and those writings are from God to His people to let them know and make them aware of their Messiah and King's arrival and what it means to them.

 

[e v e]

Since our election or non-election is from before the foundation of this world then it is easily construed that the elect who die as infants go to heaven as never having been condemned and the non-elect who die as infants return to Sheol as condemned already, John 3:18, Ps 9:17, with the rest of the wicked who die.

Age at death means absolutely nothing to the redemption of the sinful people of HIS kingdom, only that they are HIS elect. Every human is a sinner whether a son of HIS kingdom or a son of the evil one.

all incarnated in this evil flesh

 

[e v e]

I would have to disagree with you.
God created man sinful, or as the Greek word "harmatia" is defined, "missing the mark."
What is that mark? The glory of God. Or the glory that is God.
That is the only way He can create a human (and angel.)
The Geek word "harmatia" is translated in the KJV as "sin."
Scripture says there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE.
Thus, man was created fallen short of the glory of God.
But you are correct. We are sinners and there is none righteous, born or unborn.

God created us not missing the mark ..
that did not happen until adam betrayed God and us.

 

[e v e]

GOD is NOT evil, no matter how much theology says HE is.
We are not evil from GOD,
we are not evil from Adam,
we are evil from our own free will decision to rebel against the command of GOD, refusing to come out from among the Satanic so they could be damned.

each of us in the other reality
went north to adam who had gone to the demon nations....that was a choice
to go to the sin realm,
instead of stay with God when adam betrayed Him ... and
at that point was a choice
albeit under satanic torture ...
because once we left paradise
then came the gruesome
events of daniels oven, the torture,
and our incarnation here...

i never said the soul is evil..
God made us...
His souls are His treasure.

I said this flesh is evil..
which He did not make
and that adam is evil...

God did not do anything evil

 

[Azriel]

of course babies go straight to heaven.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[civic]

I was prepared. Even copied and pasted on a blank document.
But in the end I thought, I could do all this work but you would still hold to your belief and not understand let alone accept Scripture.
So, do you accept Scripture as written?
But I will say about all those Scriptures do not shed any light on salvation. And it must be understood that in dealing with a different culture (Hebrew - and Hellenized Hebrew), as well as language there are a lot of considerations to be laid down and understood. One of them is if the Old Testament is addressing anything Hebrew/Jewish with regard to children it must be understood the children (in general) are already in the Abrahamic Covenant and "covered" as they say.
The New Testament Scriptures at that site doesn't make distinction that ALL the writings of the New Testament are written to Hebrew/Jews since Jesus is a Jewish Messiah and King and those writings are from God to His people to let them know and make them aware of their Messiah and King's arrival and what it means to them.

Are you saying Paul was not the Apostle to the gentiles and none of his epistles were written to gentiles ?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Are you saying Paul was not the Apostle to the gentiles and none of his epistles were written to gentiles ?

Jesus is a Jewish Messiah. He came to the Jews, taught the Jews, and was a fulfillment of Jewish covenant and prophecies. Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Jesus sent His apostles out to Gentile lands because that's where the twelve tribes were scattered and lived. They were sent to herald the arrival of Israel's Messiah and King to God's Bride and Church Israel.
The New Testament is written to the Jews as a testimony of God to His people that He has kept His Promise and Israel's Redeemer and Deliverer had come.

3000 Jews were saved at Peter's sermon on Pentecost. That's a grip of people and they made up what's most likely several house churches full of Jews.
Paul may have been upset with the hard hearts of his brethren in Israel/Jerusalem and so He went to Gentile lands to witness to his Jewish brethren living there. The majority of people in these Asian [Minor] churches were Jews.
After the destruction of the Jewish Temple a couple of decades later was the beginning of the Times of the Gentiles and God began bringing in Gentiles into the fold to be grafted in with the natural branches who is Israel. Until then, the "ism" of Judaism remained, and God addresses His people up until that time.

 

[civic]

Jesus is a Jewish Messiah. He came to the Jews, taught the Jews, and was a fulfillment of Jewish covenant and prophecies. Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Jesus sent His apostles out to Gentile lands because that's where the twelve tribes were scattered and lived. They were sent to herald the arrival of Israel's Messiah and King to God's Bride and Church Israel.
The New Testament is written to the Jews as a testimony of God to His people that He has kept His Promise and Israel's Redeemer and Deliverer had come.

3000 Jews were saved at Peter's sermon on Pentecost. That's a grip of people and they made up what's most likely several house churches full of Jews.
Paul may have been upset with the hard hearts of his brethren in Israel/Jerusalem and so He went to Gentile lands to witness to his Jewish brethren living there. The majority of people in these Asian [Minor] churches were Jews.
After the destruction of the Jewish Temple a couple of decades later was the beginning of the Times of the Gentiles and God began bringing in Gentiles into the fold to be grafted in with the natural branches who is Israel. Until then, the "ism" of Judaism remained, and God addresses His people up until that time.

I asked about Paul who wrote 40% of the NT himself.

 

[civic]

Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles by God’s choice. The Lord Jesus declared that He had a specific mission for Paul: “This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel” (Acts 9:15). Paul had been set apart from birth and called by God’s grace so that he might “preach [Christ] among the Gentiles” (Galatians 1:15–16).

Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles because the bulk of his ministry was spent in pagan lands planting churches among the Gentiles. Paul was the first to preach the gospel on European soil. His three missionary journeys took him far from Jewish lands to Gentile areas where Diana, Zeus, and Apollo were worshiped, to Cyprus, to Athens, to Malta, and eventually to Rome. He desired to preach in Spain as well (Romans 15:24), but it’s unsure if he ever made it that far.

Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles because he was under obligation to serve in Gentile lands. Paul’s testimony was that “this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ” (Ephesians 3:8). Peter preached (mainly) to the Jews, and Paul was commissioned to preach (mainly) to the Gentiles: “God had given me the responsibility of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as he had given Peter the responsibility of preaching to the Jews” (Galatians 2:7, NLT).

Paul was well-qualified to be the apostle to the Gentiles. He was well-educated, being thoroughly trained in the Mosaic Law under Gamaliel (Acts 22:3) and having received a classical Roman education in Tarsus. He had the ability to argue his point from Jewish Law (Galatians 4:21–31) and to illustrate it from Greek literature (Acts 17:28; Titus 1:12; 1 Corinthians 15:33). Paul’s training as a Pharisee (Philippians 3:5) allowed him access to synagogues everywhere, and he also held the privileges of Roman citizenship, which opened doors of opportunity throughout the Roman world (Acts 22:3, 25–29; 28:30)..

The Lord specifically chose Paul to be the apostle to the Gentiles to show that salvation is offered to all people. Ephesians 3:6 speaks of how Christ brings together both Gentile and Jew: “And this is God’s plan: Both Gentiles and Jews who believe the Good News share equally in the riches inherited by God’s children. Both are part of the same body, and both enjoy the promise of blessings because they belong to Christ Jesus” (NLT). May the Lord continue to reach people everywhere for His glory, and may we display Paul’s willingness to go wherever God calls us.got?

hope this helps !!!

 

[Clifford]

Since they had no opportunity to have a relationship with Christ because of their inability to comprehend the gospel or even know what sin is they are going to heaven. God is love, It's one of his attributes. Jesus loves little children, at one time He was one. Think about how many babies King Harold had killed trying to Kill Jesus. My money's on they all went to heaven.

 

[Clifford]

you would still hold to your belief and not understand let alone accept Scripture.

Everyone's entitled to hold on to their beliefs, They're also free to have their own understanding of scripture and accept or reject what someone else might believe. Just saying. One thing I've learned about armchair theologians is some of them need a very large theologian hat. It may have something to do with swelling of the brain I'm not sure.