Why was it necessary for Christ to hide truth in a parable

[101G]

He spoke to them in parables so they would remain dead.

101G cannot agree with that, Matthew 10:7 "And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matthew 10:8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."

healing the sick is those sick/dead in sin. Hosea 14:4 "I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him."

101G.

 

[Mod2]

There's such a thing as tough love, which is to say neither my opinion nor your opinion matters. It's what God/scripture says that matters.

Free speech is definitely allowed here as long as it's done in a Polite manner. All of our opinions matter and we want to hear them we just don't want to mock and ridicule each other. That's what we're trying to avoid. We talk about this and we work on different strategies in our meetings as moderators and we try to do the best we can. Any help from our members is greatly appreciated.

As Christians we represent God so what we say does matter.

 

[TomL]

I did not refute total inability. If the were able, it wouldn't matter if Jesus hid it in a parable, some would understand. We have no examples of Jesus speaking in plain speech (except at the very beginning of His ministry, and that wasn't for long at all) so we don't know if they would understand or not if He spoke plainly.

And that last line is where your logic falls short. It doesn't matter if they could have believed if spoken to plainly... Jesus didn't do it. You can't build your argument on something that didn't happen.

but something did happen. Jesus hid truth to prevent belief and he told us so

That makes no sense if there was no capacity to believe

and this still appears to be true

BTW you just refuted your own doctrine of total inability

as you clearly expressed the idea they could have believed and be made alive if spoken to plainly

armylngst said:
He spoke to them in parables so they would remain dead.

 

[Johann]

101G cannot agree with that, Matthew 10:7 "And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matthew 10:8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."

healing the sick is those sick/dead in sin. Hosea 14:4 "I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him."

101G.

Actually-
Different Gospels
by Pastor J. C. O'Hair



That we may see another example of “testing the things that differ” we quote several verses of Scripture for comparison and contrast.

“THESE TWELVE JESUS SENT FORTH, AND COMMANDED THEM, SAYING, GO NOT INTO THE WAY OF THE GENTILES, AND INTO ANY CITY OF THE SAMARITANS ENTER YE NOT:

“BUT GO RATHER TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.

“AND AS YE GO, PREACH, SAYING, THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND. “HEAL THE SICK, CLEANSE THE LEPERS, RAISE THE DEAD, CAST OUT DEVILS; FREELY YE HAVE RECEIVED, FREELY GIVE,” Matthew 10:5 to 8.

“AND YE SHALL BE HATED OF ALL MEN FOR MY NAME’S SAKE: BUT HE THAT ENDURETH TO THE END SHALL BE SAVED.” Matthew 10:22.

“And they departed and went through the towns, preaching the Gospel, and healing everywhere.” Luke 9:6.“According to the glorious Gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.” I Timothy 1:11.

“Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities”. I Timothy 5:23.

“WHO HATH SAVED US, AND CALLED US WITH AN HOLY CALLING, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE, WHICH WAS GIVEN US IN CHRIST JESUS BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN, “BUT IS NOW MADE MANIFEST BY THE APPEARING OF OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, WHO HATH ABOLISHED DEATH, AND HATH BROUGHT LIFE AND IMMORTALITY TO LIGHT THROUGH THE GOSPEL.” II Timothy 1:9 and 10.

The Scriptures quoted from Matthew and Luke tell us of the Gospel message and Gospel program of the twelve apostles while their King and Messiah was in their midst. The Gospel which they were commanded to preach is called, in Matthew and Luke, “the Gospel of the kingdom.” “And they departed and went through the towns, preaching the Gospel and healing everywhere”. The Gospel, was the fact that Israel’s King had arrived with kingdom blessings and national deliverance for that people, preserved and protected by the Abrahamic Covenant.

The covenants that God made with Israel guaranteed to them peaceful possession of Canaan, under the reign of the true King David. The people were to have new hearts, and enjoy temporal prosperity, and physical health. According to the 35th chapter of Isaiah, that kingdom was to be inaugurated with mighty signs, by the hands of the Messiah. Therefore, the Twelve were to say, “The kingdom of heaven is at hand.” And they were to prove it by healing the sick, raising the dead, casting out demons, cleansing the lepers. They were to be saved by enduring to the end.

After these Messengers had been proclaiming this kingdom message for two years, their Messiah told them of His death and resurrection, recorded in Luke 18:31 to 34, which would be the basis of the Gospel of the grace of God which was to be preached later on by the Apostle Paul. By reading these verses, in the eighteenth chapter of Luke, you will observe that the twelve apostles had not the slightest understanding of the things spoken by Christ concerning His death, burial and resurrection.

Let us compare the statement in Matthew 10:5, the words of the Lord Jesus to the Twelve, “Go not into the way of the Gentiles”, with the statement of the Lord Jesus to the Apostle Paul, recorded in Acts 22:21, “I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles”.

Now let us note carefully the fact in I Timothy 1:11, Paul’s words in connection with the Gospel of glory. He said, “Committed to my trust”. We should never fail to catch the significance of the “my" It does not say “our trust”. In other Scriptures Paul uses the expression, “my gospel”.

In II Timothy 2:2 we learn that Paul was committing to Timothy the Gospel and the Mystery truth which the Lord had committed to him. But Timothy did not go as did the Twelve, preaching the Gospel everywhere and healing, for he, himself, was told to take a physical remedy for his own sickness. I Timothy 5:23. And Timothy could look at Paul himself suffering with his physical infirmities and know that there had been a change in the Gospel message and Gospel program since the days of the Twelve on earth with Christ. Timothy was not instructed to preach, “the kingdom of heaven is at hand”, for it was not then at hand as it was in Matthew 10:7.

He was not proclaiming a message of national deliverance to Israel. Neither was Timothy instructed to tell any one to endure unto the end in order to be saved. He was told that they were saved not by enduring unto the end; not by any of their works; but by the grace and purpose of God given them in Christ Jesus (before the foundation of the world. II Timothy 1:9.

In the Gospel according to Luke we cannot find a message which Christ spoke directly to a single Gentile until He stood before Pilate. The Roman centurion, in the seventh chapter, received a physical blessing for His servant, because he had built a synagogue for Israel. And the elders of Israel interceded in his behalf. Luke 7:1 to 8.

In the Book of Matthew the word “grace” is not found. It is difficult in that Book to find the Gospel of the grace of God for an individual Gentile sinner. In that Book the Lord Jesus Christ was under the law with His Nation, with a ministry of confirmation, in accordance with Romans 15:8. The message of salvation is covered with so much Judaism that it takes an expert exegete to uncover it. Whereas, the message of pure grace is so clearly set forth in Paul’s Epistles to Timothy, that it seems a spiritual crime for any preacher to present the mixture of the two messages to a poor lost sinner, who must be saved by grace, and grace alone.

From this we see the importance of obeying Hebrews 6:1, which we quote:

“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection”.

“If by grace, it is no more of works.” Romans 11:6.

Different Gospels

That we may see another example of “testing the things that differ” we quote several verses of Scripture for comparison and contrast. “THESE TWELVE JESUS SENT FORTH, AND COMMANDED THEM, SAYING, GO NOT INTO THE WAY OF THE GENTILES, AND INTO ANY CITY OF THE SAMARITANS ENTER YE NOT: “BUT GO RATHER

bereanbiblesociety.org

 

[Johann]

Verse List: The Twelve Did Not Preach the Cross

It is evident from 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 that the gospel of our salvation includes the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus as payment for our sins. This simple truth is the cornerstone of Christianity. Yet no where within Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John did the Twelve Apostles understand the preaching of the cross. Below are the verses that prove the Twelve were ignorant of the preaching of the cross for salvation.

Ignorant of Jesus’ Death, burial, and resurrection
1. Matthew 16:21-22 – Jesus first began to tell them of his death and yet Peter tried to prevent it.
2. Mark 8:31-32 – Another account of Peter rebuking the Lord for speaking about his death.
3. Mark 9:31-32 – After hearing about the death and resurrection of Jesus the disciples “understood not and were afraid to ask him”
4. Luke 9:44-45 – “But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.”
5. Luke 18:31-34 – “And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.”
6. John 2:21-22 – They did not understand the resurrection until after it happened.
Disbelief in the Resurrection

7. Mark 16:5-14 – The ladies were afraid when they found the tomb empty. The disciples did not believe after two witnesses testified of the resurrection.
8. Luke 24:1-4 – The ladies were perplexed about what had happened to Jesus.
9. Luke 24:8-12 – The stories of Jesus’ “disappearance” were idle tales. Peter wondered what happened.
10. John 20:2 – Mary Magdalene thought someone had stolen Jesus after he had resurrected.
11. John 20:7-9 – The disciples after seeing the empty tomb believed Mary that someone had stolen Jesus. They did not know about the resurrection yet.
Did not understand the cross for salvation

12. John 20:21-23 – Even after the resurrection, the disciples did not understand what it accomplished. Here they are given the authority to remit sins.
13. Acts 3:14-15 – The crucifixion was presented as a murder indictment to Israel at Pentecost. The resurrection as a warning that he would return to seek vengeance.
14. Acts 5:28 – Instead of the blood being payment for sins it was presented as the evidence of guilty murderers.
15. Acts 7:52 – Stephen accuses the rulers of betrayal and murder of the Just One.
16. Acts 10:39 – According to Paul’s gospel Christ died willingly in the place of sinners. According to Peter he died because he was slain by certain Jews. Could it be that Peter does not yet understand the mystery of the cross?

Conclusions:
This list does not prove that the Twelve were disobedient to the gospel that was presented to them. Contrarily, they were some of the first believers in the gospel of the kingdom. They were among the faithful remnant of Israel who trusted that Jesus was the Son of God and promised Messiah.
However, these verses show that the gospel they knew and trusted was not the preaching of the cross that Paul taught. Whereas they knew Jesus Christ as Messiah to Israel, Paul would later teach Jesus Christ on the cross as payment for sins to Gentiles.



The preaching of the cross was offered for salvation first through the Apostle Paul as the Lord revealed the meaning of the death, burial, and resurrection. The Twelve apostles were ignorant of this message.

You may disagree @101G

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Free speech is definitely allowed here as long as it's done in a Polite manner. All of our opinions matter and we want to hear them we just don't want to mock and ridicule each other. That's what we're trying to avoid. We talk about this and we work on different strategies in our meetings as moderators and we try to do the best we can. Any help from our members is greatly appreciated.

As Christians we represent God so what we say does matter.

I thought it was self-evident in the way I said it that compared to God/scripture, our opinions don't matter. And I stand by that.

It would be different if someone said, "In my opinion, a loving God would not..." which is different than saying, "A loving God would not..."

 

[Aeliana]

I think a few people here should black out that text. God is love, and a loving God would never actively prevent people from coming to him and being saved.

That's sort of like if you don't agree with something in the Bible tearing that page out. I watched a pastor do that prove that point in his sermon once. People were shocked but they got the message. I think if you don't understand something that's in the Bible you just need to study it out more pray on it as for the holy spirit to lead you into truth about it.

The Bible does say that God's not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. And yet they do. Think of how many people perished in the flood. Think of how many people never get saved And never come to repentance.

Today's the day of your salvation.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Peter 3:8-10

 

[armylngst]

101G cannot agree with that, Matthew 10:7 "And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matthew 10:8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."

healing the sick is those sick/dead in sin. Hosea 14:4 "I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him."

101G.

You shouldn't make such inferences in which backsliding is NOT the sickness Jesus is speaking of. How do we know? What comes next? Cleanse the lepers.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

That's sort of like if you don't agree with something in the Bible tearing that page out. I watched a pastor do that prove that point in his sermon once. People were shocked but they got the message. I think if you don't understand something that's in the Bible you just need to study it out more pray on it as for the holy spirit to lead you into truth about it.

The Bible does say that God's not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. And yet they do. Think of how many people perished in the flood. Think of how many people never get saved And never come to repentance.

Today's the day of your salvation.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Peter 3:8-10

One must consider the context of verses and compare scripture to scripture. The way a lot of folks interpret "God is not willing that any should perish" contradicts "not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will". If God's will determines how a sparrow falls, then if He is not willing that any should perish, nobody would perish.

"God is not willing that any should perish" has the context of God's patience. I suspect the real meaning of that is that God is not willing that any of His elect perish, but is waiting for all of them to come to repentance.

Again, comparing scripture to scripture, "No one can come to me unless the Father enables him" does not jibe with "God is patiently waiting for people to decide to accept Jesus of their own free will".

 

[armylngst]

but something did happen. Jesus hid truth to prevent belief and he told us so

Yes. However, since the opposite never comes up, one cannot make the argument you are making.

That makes no sense if there was no capacity to believe

Why? Perhaps God was showing true judgement by not only them not being able to believe, but then God shutting them out of the truth totally. Why do you believe God can't do that if He felt like it?

and this still appears to be true

BTW you just refuted your own doctrine of total inability

BTW, you just refuted your ability to argue.

as you clearly expressed the idea they could have believed and be made alive if spoken to plainly

No. That does work in the corrupt post modern/post truth thinking of the day, however, God didn't speak in post modern, and God is truth.

 

[Aeliana]

I thought it was self-evident in the way I said it that compared to God/scripture, our opinions don't matter. And I stand by that.

But that's not what you, said here's what you said.

There's such a thing as tough love, which is to say neither my opinion nor your opinion matters. It's what God/scripture says that matters.

Of course what God tells us in the Bible is what matters. But you must realize that our interpretation of the Bible is our opinion. That's what we share here every day in every single post is our opinion. You have yours I have mine and everyone else has their own. What the moderators are trying to do here Is give us the opportunity to share our opinions about scripture without being obnoxious towards each other. Simple as that.

 

[Aeliana]

One must consider the context of verses and compare scripture to scripture. The way a lot of folks interpret "God is not willing that any should perish" contradicts "not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will". If God's will determines how a sparrow falls, then if He is not willing that any should perish, nobody would perish.

"God is not willing that any should perish" has the context of God's patience. I suspect the real meaning of that is that God is not willing that any of His elect perish, but is waiting for all of them to come to repentance.

Again, comparing scripture to scripture, "No one can come to me unless the Father enables him" does not jibe with "God is patiently waiting for people to decide to accept Jesus of their own free will".

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. The same way lots of folks that interpreted differently have their own opinion.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

But that's not what you, said here's what you said.


Of course what God tells us in the Bible is what matters. But you must realize that our interpretation of the Bible is our opinion. That's what we share here every day in every single post is our opinion. You have yours I have mine and everyone else has their own. What the moderators are trying to do here Is give us the opportunity to share our opinions about scripture without being obnoxious towards each other. Simple as that.

I thought what I said expressed what I meant, which is that our opinions have no merit vs. what God/Scripture says. I apologize if I didn't state that clearly enough.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. The same way lots of folks that interpreted differently have their own opinion.

My opinion is that the scripture is saying God is not willing that any of His elect perish.

The fact that "No one can come to me unless the Father enables him" does not jibe with "God is patiently waiting for people to decide to accept Jesus of their own free will" is not opinion. It is stating that these things are contradictory. If they're not contradictory, explain how that's possible.

 

[Aeliana]

I thought what I said expressed what I meant, which is that our opinions have no merit vs. what God/Scripture says. I apologize if I didn't state that clearly enough.

Same here I apologize for not understanding what you meant. Thanks for clarifying it, That sounds a lot better.

our opinions have no merit vs. what God/Scripture says

I agree with that 100%

 

[civic]

My opinion is that the scripture is saying God is not willing that any of His elect perish.

The fact that "No one can come to me unless the Father enables him" does not jibe with "God is patiently waiting for people to decide to accept Jesus of their own free will" is not opinion. It is stating that these things are contradictory. If they're not contradictory, explain how that's possible.

Adding “ elect “ into the passage - very poor hermeneutics.

 

[Aeliana]

My opinion is that the scripture is saying God is not willing that any of His elect perish.

The fact that "No one can come to me unless the Father enables him" does not jibe with "God is patiently waiting for people to decide to accept Jesus of their own free will" is not opinion. It is stating that these things are contradictory. If they're not contradictory, explain how that's possible.

Yeah I saw the elect part and I'm just not going to go there. Been there done that have the T-shirt to prove it

 

[civic]

Yeah I saw the elect part and I'm just not going to go there. Been there done that have the T-shirt to prove itView attachment 490

Love it !!!

 

[Rockson]

Isaiah 6:9 "And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not." Isaiah 6:10 "Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."

I've just been pondering these verses. I won't say this for a fact but just thinking about them. I'm wondering if what we're reading here is elevated poetic language not that God is actually doing something but we use the expression today......we might say that preacher put everyone to sleep.

We don't mean he ACTUALLY did that. His sermon may have had many good life changing points......the thing is though even with the most exciting sermons if a person or people are soooooo worldly focused and enveloped in temporal things that THEY.....let those things take preeminence over the WORD it still could be said the preacher put them to sleep. He didn't but by their own choice they allowed themselves.... to stay blinded.

That doesn't mean they couldn't have chose to have ears to ear, Jesus cried out constantly, "He that has an ear to ear LET HIM HEAR." We say that too in current culture. We say I'm putting it out there for all and he that wants to listen to me then do so today! analogy....We see a sign on a water way....THIN ICE! It's not put out for just some....BUT for those who will listen...If we put the sign there we truly want ALL, A double LL to hear and allow it to change your direction. .

 

[Rockson]

He spoke to them in parables so they would remain dead. Only the disciples were given the ability to discern what Jesus taught in parables, though it took time for them to figure it out without help. Jesus chided them on that.

The only reason the disciples were given the ability to understand them is because they chose to have an ear to hear. All the crowds could have chosen to do that too! I've seen it in many churches. Pastor preaches a great sermon and many of the people are thinking about what they're going to do the following week. They're thinking of the restaurant they're going to go to after the service! What we're going to be having a 1 1/2 hour teaching seminar!

Come on nothing needs to go further then 30 minutes!
The great crowds around Jesus wanted the 20-30 minute little messages.....the disciples who were choosing to be just that disciplined ones wanted the seminar. They attended their hears to instructions....THEY OTHERS COULD HAVE DONE SO TOO.