Why was it necessary for Christ to hide truth in a parable
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
. ) now let’s move right on since we got things off our chest and vented. Unlike other places I will tolerate some venting. 
Johann
Well-known member
I stand by what I've posted-you can lash out all you want-as for the "accuser of the brethren" take a look in the mirror.
civic
Well-known member
101G
Well-known member
To all,
101G will give one more shot at this. for edification, and clarity.
Isaiah 6:8 "Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me." Isaiah 6:9 "And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not." Isaiah 6:10 "Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."
to keywords here, "convert, and be healed." or other words, REPENT and be "SAVED".
scripture, Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." Romans 10:4 "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
NOW, let's get the bases for this, Deuteronomy 30:11 "For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off." Deuteronomy 30:12 "It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?" Deuteronomy 30:13 "Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?" Deuteronomy 30:14 "But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."
Romans 10:5 "For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them." Romans 10:6 "But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above" Romans 10:7 "Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)" Romans 10:8 "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;" Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
was this HIDDEN FROM THEM? NO. this is why the Parable of the Sower was given.
101G.
101G will give one more shot at this. for edification, and clarity.
Isaiah 6:8 "Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me." Isaiah 6:9 "And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not." Isaiah 6:10 "Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."
to keywords here, "convert, and be healed." or other words, REPENT and be "SAVED".
scripture, Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." Romans 10:4 "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
NOW, let's get the bases for this, Deuteronomy 30:11 "For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off." Deuteronomy 30:12 "It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?" Deuteronomy 30:13 "Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?" Deuteronomy 30:14 "But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."
Romans 10:5 "For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them." Romans 10:6 "But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above" Romans 10:7 "Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)" Romans 10:8 "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;" Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
was this HIDDEN FROM THEM? NO. this is why the Parable of the Sower was given.
101G.
Are you serious
it was right in the text
Get a grip and read
Mark 4:10–12 (KJV 1900) — 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Luke 8:9–10 (KJV 1900) — 9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
he had a crucifixion to accomplish. It was not until after the resurrection he commissioned the gospel to go unto all nations
Johann
Well-known member
"Here am I" This is a common Hebrew idiom for availability (cf. Gen. 22:1,7,11; 27:1; 31:11; 46:2; Exod. 3:4; 1 Sam. 3:4,5,6,8,16; 22:12; 2 Sam. 1:7).
"Send me"
The verb "send" (BDB 1018, KB 1511) is a Qal imperative used as a prayer request. This is Isaiah's response to YHWH's question. It clearly reveals his availability.
One wonders how much this Hebrew concept of "divinely sent one" is typological of Jesus as "the sent one" in John's Gospel and believers as His "sent ones" into the world (cf. John 17:18; 20:21). God is reaching out to His rebellious creation! I recently heard a line from a new Christian song that says "God sent His Son, He sends His children still." Powerful words about God and about His people!
6:9-10 As YHWH reveals His purpose for Isaiah's ministry, He also reveals to Isaiah the response his message will have on Judah.
go, Isa. 6:9, BDB 229, KB 246, Qal imperative
tell, Isa. 6:9, BDB 55, KB 65, Qal perfect with waw
keep listening, Isa. 6:9, Qal imperative and Qal infinitive absolute of BDB 1033, KB 1570
but do not perceive, Isa. 6:9, BDB 106, KB 122, Qal imperfect used in a jussive sense, cf. Isa. 1:3; 5:21; 10:13; 29:14
keep looking, Isa. 6:9, Qal imperative and Qal infinitive absolute of BDB 906, KB 1157
but do not understand, Isa. 6:9, BDB 393, KB 380, Qal imperfect used in a jussive sense
render the hearts of this people insensitive (lit. "fat"), Isa. 6:10, BDB 1031, KB 1566, Hiphil imperative
their ears dull, Isa. 6:10, BDB 457, KB 455, Hiphil imperative
and their eyes dim, Isa. 6:10, BDB 1044, KB 1612, Hiphil imperative
These imperatives are followed by the consequences (three imperfects of previously used verbs, "see," "hear," and "perceive"). God knows (either by His foreknowledge or His hardening of their already wayward hearts/minds) that they will not respond and be saved.
lest they repent, BDB 996, KB 1427, Qal perfect negated with waw
lest they be healed, BDB 950, KB 1272, Qal perfect negated with waw
Isaiah will preach and though some may respond, the vast majority of his people/his society will not (cf. Rom. 1:24,26,28; Eph. 4:19) or cannot respond (cf. Isa. 29:9,10; Deut. 29:4; Matt. 13:13; Rom. 11:8)! Isaiah is not an evangelist here, but a prophet of covenant disobedience/consequences (cf. Matt. 13:13; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10). His message of hope is for a future day, not his day!
6:10 "dim" This (BDB 1044, KB 1612) is literally "covered with secretions" (cf. Isa. 29:9; 32:3).
"return" In the OT this term (BDB 996, KB 1427) means "a change of action." In the NT repentance means a "change of mind." Both concepts are involved!
Can you actually address the issue
calling my argument mindless does not do it
And I did not address Calvinists but Calvinism
Why is Christ hiding truth from unregenerate men?
Try sticking to the issue and avoid the personalizations
101G
Well-known member
Agent "J" you're on your JOB. Isaiah 53:5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
101G.
101G
Well-known member
Actually I've Mellowed out but Mod2 ... She's a whole different story forget the Pitbulls we're talking Chihuahua.
But seriously we're all Adult Christians here. So let's treat each other like it. I know how much you guys like to quote scripture. I've got one for you.
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. john 13:35
Let's try that shall we?
Johann
Well-known member
Actually-in context-the truth is been hidden to the Pharisees, Sadducees, Sanhedrin-the expositors from the Torah.
101G
Well-known member
Hebrews 4:1 "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." Hebrews 4:2 "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it." Hebrews 4:3 "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world." Hebrews 4:4 "For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works." Hebrews 4:5 "And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest." Hebrews 4:6 "Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:" Hebrews 4:7 "Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts." Hebrews 4:8 "For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day." Hebrews 4:9 "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God." Hebrews 4:10 "For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his." Hebrews 4:11 "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:13 "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."
101G
Johann
Well-known member
Yup-I have a lot of catching up to do in the gym.
I did not refute total inability. If the were able, it wouldn't matter if Jesus hid it in a parable, some would understand. We have no examples of Jesus speaking in plain speech (except at the very beginning of His ministry, and that wasn't for long at all) so we don't know if they would understand or not if He spoke plainly.
And that last line is where your logic falls short. It doesn't matter if they could have believed if spoken to plainly... Jesus didn't do it. You can't build your argument on something that didn't happen.
He spoke to them in parables so they would remain dead. Only the disciples were given the ability to discern what Jesus taught in parables, though it took time for them to figure it out without help. Jesus chided them on that.
So you won't take scripture at His word, but invent an argument about something that never happened? We don't know if they would have accepted or not if He didn't speak in parables, because such a case does not present itself in scripture. We just have what God said.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
There's such a thing as tough love, which is to say neither my opinion nor your opinion matters. It's what God/scripture says that matters.
