Refuting effectually caused faith

[TomL]

@TomL



You have failed to show just one scripture stating man has the ability to believe in Jesus. Jesus said man cant, unless divine Intervention by God, in that case God caused the believing, irresistible Grace. Jn 6:44,65

Let me know when you are ever able to address scripture

Sorry but you are in denial to biblical truth

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony



Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.

Paul persauded men concerning the Kingdom of God

Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.



Convincing them Jesus was the Christ



Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.



Even the preaching of the old testament is sufficient






John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.



John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?



Miracles have power to bring about faith



John 5:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away

which is why you never address a single verse

or even address the response to John 6:44

John 6:45 (NASB95) — 45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Men can believe what they hear from God

 

[brightfame52]

Faith that is of the operation of God !

Col 2:12

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

This is the same as saying that Faith is the fruit , operation of the Spirit of God, Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Lets demonstrate by word study. The word operation is the greek word energeia and means:

I.working, efficiency

A.in the NT used only of superhuman power, whether of God or of the Devil

effectual working as in Eph 3:7

Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Eph 4:16

From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Now the word fruit in Gal 5:22 is the greek word karpos:

II.that which originates or comes from something, an effect, result

A.work, act, deed

The english word for operation means:

effect, functioning, performance, working

works similar words:act, enterprise, procedure, process, project, undertaking

Also another scripture that lends to the fact that believing is of the fruit , operation of the Spirit of God is Eph 1:19-20

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

That word working in Vs 19 is the greek word used for operation in Col 2:12, and Paul plainly says the Ephesian believers had believed according to the working, operation of His Mighty Power.

That Mighty Power is the Spirit of God who raised up Christ from the dead 1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

The Holy Ghost is sometimes called the Power of God like 2 Cor 6:7

By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

This no doubt refers to preaching accompanied by the Holy Ghosts Power as in 1 Thess 1:5

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

So Faith / believing in Christ is the result of the Operation, Fruit, and or Power of the God the Holy Spirit , His Power and Grace !

 

[Complete]

If faith is effectually, irresistibly caused by God then verses would make no sense

John 12:40 —ESV
“¶ “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.””

why would God blind those unable to see or hear the truth unless he effectually, sovereignty, irresistibly causes them to

'Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying,
Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?
Then said I, Here am I; send me.
And He said, Go, and tell this people,
Hear ye indeed, but understand not;
and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Make the heart of this people fat,
and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes;
lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.'
(Isa 6:8-10)

Hello @TomL,

'For this people's heart is waxed gross,
and their ears are dull of hearing,
and their eyes they have closed;
lest at any time they should see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and should understand with their heart,
and should be converted,
and I should heal them.'
(Mat 13:15)

The use of the many 'ands' here, which is a figure of speech, intended to draw the eye to each individual point for consideration, for each has significance and importance in itself. There is therefore no concluding remark, for each is of itself to hold the attention.

The reason that God brought the curse of Isaiah 6:9-10 upon the people was because of unbelief, this was quoted at a time of crises, in the case of Matthew 13:15, we read in 12:14 the Pharisees sought to destroy the Lord Jesus: and in Mark 3:22, the scribes blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, by ascribing the work of the Holy Spirit within Him, to Beelzebub the prince of devils. So, you can see that the dullness of hearing, the closing of the eyes, and ears, was self inflicted, for the people did not want to understand with their heart, and be converted, that they may be saved. As you say later, they hardened their own hearts.

In Acts 28:26-27 Paul quotes Isaiah 6:9-10, this time because of the unbelief of the elders of the Jews who rejected the message concerning the Lord Jesus Christ. This was the final quotation, and marks the point where the Jews finally went away into the darkness of unbelief (temporarily but for long duration). for they had rejected their Messiah and King, both in the land and in the diaspora: and salvation was sent to the Gentiles, for they would hear it.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[TibiasDad]

Faith that is of the operation of God !

Col 2:12

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

The Greek simply has the article “the” and the only logical meaning is the implied “in” for two reasons:

1) God and his work is always the object of our faith. We have faith in his word, in his goodness, in his faithfulness. And,

2) “the operation of God” does not and cannot have faith. The works of God’s hands, such as raising Christ from the dead, are not personal beings, they are actions.

Additionally, God does not have faith in anything. He simply knows the beginning from the end. Omniscience precludes the need of faith.


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

The Greek simply has the article “the” and the only logical meaning is the implied “in” for two reasons:

1) God and his work is always the object of our faith. We have faith in his word, in his goodness, in his faithfulness. And,

2) “the operation of God” does not and cannot have faith. The works of God’s hands, such as raising Christ from the dead, are not personal beings, they are actions.

Additionally, God does not have faith in anything. He simply knows the beginning from the end. Omniscience precludes the need of faith.


Doug

You use greek and still don't understand the scripture, so it back fires on you. Faith /believing is by the power of God, the Spirit of God

 

[brightfame52]

The Spiritual Life that is before and requisite to believe is from Christ the Head of the Church, His Body ! He communicates it as the Last Adam, the Head of His Body the Church 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made[by the purpose of God] a living soul; the last Adam was made[by the purpose of God] a quickening spirit.

So Christ's Members of His Body believe with the Life we receive from Christ through His quickening Spirit Jn 6:63

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The Spirit quickening here is in response to Christ being a quickening Spirit from 1 Cor 15:45, the Spirit carries out the Will of Christ in giving Life to one of His once dead in sin members ! And so by this Christ is the Author of Our Faith Heb 12:2

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

That word author means:


II.one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer


III.the author


I.beginning, origin


II.the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader


III.that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause


Christ is the active cause of our Faith, it begins to be primarily because of Him as the Last Adam.

Now the man exalting religionists in the pride of his heart would tell us that faith is a product of his own freewill according to the flesh, exalting their human will over Christ's Spirit !

 

[DavidTree]

'Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying,
Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?
Then said I, Here am I; send me.
And He said, Go, and tell this people,
Hear ye indeed, but understand not;
and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Make the heart of this people fat,
and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes;
lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.'
(Isa 6:8-10)

Hello @TomL,

'For this people's heart is waxed gross,
and their ears are dull of hearing,
and their eyes they have closed;
lest at any time they should see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and should understand with their heart,
and should be converted,
and I should heal them.'
(Mat 13:15)

The use of the many 'ands' here, which is a figure of speech, intended to draw the eye to each individual point for consideration, for each has significance and importance in itself. There is therefore no concluding remark, for each is of itself to hold the attention.

The reason that God brought the curse of Isaiah 6:9-10 upon the people was because of unbelief, this was quoted at a time of crises, in the case of Matthew 13:15, we read in 12:14 the Pharisees sought to destroy the Lord Jesus: and in Mark 3:22, the scribes blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, by ascribing the work of the Holy Spirit within Him, to Beelzebub the prince of devils. So, you can see that the dullness of hearing, the closing of the eyes, and ears, was self inflicted, for the people did not want to understand with their heart, and be converted, that they may be saved. As you say later, they hardened their own hearts.

In Acts 28:26-27 Paul quotes Isaiah 6:9-10, this time because of the unbelief of the elders of the Jews who rejected the message concerning the Lord Jesus Christ. This was the final quotation, and marks the point where the Jews finally went away into the darkness of unbelief (temporarily but for long duration). for they had rejected their Messiah and King, both in the land and in the diaspora: and salvation was sent to the Gentiles, for they would hear it.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

This then is in line and in harmony with 2 Thessalonians ch2

1Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[TibiasDad]

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The word “our” is not in the Greek, and the meaning of verse 2 is that Jesus is the premier example of the “cloud of witnesses” which demonstrate how faith is to be lived out. He is the complete and perfect example from beginning to end of what faith looks like, even under the most extreme of circumstances and trials of life.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

The word “our” is not in the Greek, and the meaning of verse 2 is that Jesus is the premier example of the “cloud of witnesses” which demonstrate how faith is to be lived out. He is the complete and perfect example from beginning to end of what faith looks like, even under the most extreme of circumstances and trials of life.

Doug

Doesnt matter, Jesus is the author of Faith, and example. All believers are His Seed so He must give them Faith, so they are conformed to His Image. Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

The word author also means the causer ,

1. that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

 

[TibiasDad]

Doesnt matter, Jesus is the author of Faith, and example. All believers are His Seed so He must give them Faith, so they are conformed to His Image. Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

The word author also means the causer ,

1. that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

Maybe you’ll accept the opinion of a Calvinist, Albert Barnes:

Looking unto Jesus - As a further inducement to do this, the apostle exhorts us to look to the Saviour. We are to look to his holy life; to his patience and perseverance in trials; to what he endured in order to obtain the crown, and to his final success and triumph.
The author and finisher of our faith - The word "our" is not in the original here, and obscures the sense. The meaning is, he is the first and the last as an example of faith or of confidence in God - occupying in this, as in all other things, the pre-eminence, and being the most complete model that can be placed before us. The apostle had not enumerated him among those who had been distinguished for their faith, but he now refers to him as above them all; as a case that deserved to stand by itself. It is probable that there is a continuance here of the allusion to the Grecian games which the apostle had commenced in the previous verse. The word "author" - ἀρχηγὸν archēgon - (marg. beginner) - means properly the source, or cause of anything; or one who makes a beginning. It is rendered in Acts 3:15; Acts 5:31, "Prince"; in Hebrews 2:10, "Captain"; and in the place before us, "Author."

It does not occur elsewhere in the New Testament. The phrase "the beginner of faith," or the leader on of faith, would express the idea. He is at the head of all those who have furnished an example of confidence in God, for he was himself the most illustrious instance of it. The expression, then, does not mean properly that he produces faith in us, or that we believe because he causes us to believe - whatever may be the truth about that - but that he stands at the head as the most eminent example that can be referred to on the subject of faith.
(Emphasis mine)

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Maybe you’ll accept the opinion of a Calvinist, Albert Barnes:

Looking unto Jesus - As a further inducement to do this, the apostle exhorts us to look to the Saviour. We are to look to his holy life; to his patience and perseverance in trials; to what he endured in order to obtain the crown, and to his final success and triumph.
The author and finisher of our faith - The word "our" is not in the original here, and obscures the sense. The meaning is, he is the first and the last as an example of faith or of confidence in God - occupying in this, as in all other things, the pre-eminence, and being the most complete model that can be placed before us. The apostle had not enumerated him among those who had been distinguished for their faith, but he now refers to him as above them all; as a case that deserved to stand by itself. It is probable that there is a continuance here of the allusion to the Grecian games which the apostle had commenced in the previous verse. The word "author" - ἀρχηγὸν archēgon - (marg. beginner) - means properly the source, or cause of anything; or one who makes a beginning. It is rendered in Acts 3:15; Acts 5:31, "Prince"; in Hebrews 2:10, "Captain"; and in the place before us, "Author."

It does not occur elsewhere in the New Testament. The phrase "the beginner of faith," or the leader on of faith, would express the idea. He is at the head of all those who have furnished an example of confidence in God, for he was himself the most illustrious instance of it. The expression, then, does not mean properly that he produces faith in us, or that we believe because he causes us to believe - whatever may be the truth about that - but that he stands at the head as the most eminent example that can be referred to on the subject of faith.
(Emphasis mine)

Doug

Its the word of God, Jesus is the active cause of our Faith, His seed. Faith is genitive so the writer is speaking about our Faith, the same Faith He had as He was here. He trusted God and so will His seed or children Heb 2:13

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Jesus is guaranteeing that them He died for, them given to Him, His seed will put their Trust in God, that's Faith

 

[TibiasDad]

Its the word of God, Jesus is the active cause of our Faith, His seed. Faith is genitive so the writer is speaking about our Faith, the same Faith He had as He was here. He trusted God and so will His seed or children Heb 2:13

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Jesus is guaranteeing that them He died for, them given to Him, His seed will put their Trust in God, that's Faith

God gives all who believe to Jesus. John 3:16

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

God gives all who believe to Jesus. John 3:16

Doug

False. And that's not what Jn 3:16 says. Those believing in Jn 3:16 are Christs seed, Sheep and He is the author of their Faith/believing

 

[DavidTree]

False. And that's not what Jn 3:16 says. Those believing in Jn 3:16 are Christs seed, Sheep and He is the author of their Faith/believing

I believe @TibiasDad said the SAME thing.

 

[brightfame52]

I believe @TibiasDad said the SAME thing.

I don't see how you think that

 

[DavidTree]

I don't see how you think that

Maybe i am reading his post wrong?

Does not the FATHER place in Christ all whom HE calls and believes!!!

 

[TibiasDad]

False. And that's not what Jn 3:16 says. Those believing in Jn 3:16 are Christs seed, Sheep and He is the author of their Faith/believing

No one is a sheep until they believe!

God loved the world in this way: He gave his only son in order that whoever is believing in him, the son, might not perish but have everlasting life.

The hina clause, “so that”, or “in order that” establishes a condition that must happen prior to the result occurring. In other words, if there is no belief there is no life; if there is no life there is no salvation yet! Jesus said it best: “You must be born again!”

What Jesus didn’t say, was “God must elect you to be born again.” He put the onus on us to believe in what God has already done. Believe and live! Don’t believe and continue in your path of condemnation.

Doug

 

[civic]

No one is a sheep until they believe!

God loved the world in this way: He gave his only son in order that whoever is believing in him, the son, might not perish but have everlasting life.

The hina clause, “so that”, or “in order that” establishes a condition that must happen prior to the result occurring. In other words, if there is no belief there is no life; if there is no life there is no salvation yet! Jesus said it best: “You must be born again!”

What Jesus didn’t say, was “God must elect you to be born again.” He put the onus on us to believe in what God has already done. Believe and live! Don’t believe and continue in your path of condemnation.

Doug

Amen- faith and the gospel have nothing to do with salvation in his system.

 

[brightfame52]

Maybe i am reading his post wrong?

Does not the FATHER place in Christ all whom HE calls and believes!!!

I never heard of such a thing, My belief is God chose a people in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4 and each of them in time will believe the Gospel of their Salvation sent to them Eph 1:13,

However it all started with their election in Christ b4 the foundation.

 

[brightfame52]

@TibiasDad

No one is a sheep until they believe!

False witnessing, Jesus had sheep [present tense] that had yet to hear His voice and believe [future tense] Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have[present tense], which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they[Sheep] shall[future tense] hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

They certainly had not believed yet having not yet heard His voice, but they were still His Sheep.

Jesus prayed for His Sheep here as well as those who shall believe Jn 17:20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

So you have not a clue